Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[millernumber1]

Thanks! Also, she was actually initially created to be a one-off character for her debut storyline in Detective Comics all those years ago. I dislike how she's pretty much right now revoling around Tim and basically never interacted with anyone else in Tec. She's proven to be much more than that and I wish that one day that her being his girlfriend won't be the thing that writers associate with the most.

Yes! In Detective Comics 647-649 - I bought ten issues off Ebay to collect those three! But I think if you read the way the story structures Steph's introduction to Batman and Robin, she's clearly making a personal connection to Tim, and all of the reader letters a few issues later were focused on how Dixon should write Tim and Steph into a romantic relationship. And given that the story could easily have been an arc of Robin, and that's the same way Dixon approached writing Tim's first 100 issues, I think it's clear that Steph is a Tim supporting character in her introductory arc of Tec.

However, I agree with you that Steph is much more than that now, and it's frustrating that Tynion didn't do a whole lot more with her until the last two issues of the run. She did interact with Anarky, though.

[The Dying Detective]

The argument about Steph in Tec is that it's not a Tim book, though. It's supposed to be a team book, and she should have her own plotline. I think she more or less did, but it was definitely very connected/driven by a lot of Steph's connections to Tim. I appreciate that, since I think it's an attempt to honor her first 100 issues in Robin as a supporting character for Tim, but it feels like Tynion didn't really value Steph as a potential solo character in the same way he valued Cass, Tim, Kate, and even Azrael.

Tim hacking the drones was a good use of hacking, because it was one thing that helped, but it didn't magically solve the problem - Tim still had to hold the drones off with his own skill (and ultimately failed because there were too many of them).

I don't really care about Teen Titans of Young Justice, which is kind of why I'm not super excited about that idea.

If Tynion wanted that Red Robin solo he really should have been given it. I get your point but like I said it depends on the story just as the Justice League cartoon switched the focus every now and then and Detective Comics was supposed to do that. And I think Tynion's failure to give Stephanie more focus stemmed more from behind the scenes issues that he had to deal with if he had been allowed to resolve Stephanie's anger over losing Tim a lot sooner in theory it would have freed her up for more stories that are more centred on Stephanie as a character. and there was also the fact his run got cut short and he had to wrap things up as soon as possible. And good point I guess it's just how fans are irrational because the anger over how Tim was used by Tynion in Batman and Robin Eternal was still fresh in people's minds. Well you might have to get used to it as Tim should be an important part of Geoff Johns' plans to fix the DC Universe and that means probably having Tim bring back the Young Justice crowd and with Bart Allen being heavily teased I think it likely.

Peeps can post about Tim if we're talking about Tim. I just always try to bring it back to Steph.

If you says so and I can respect that.

[juffuj5]

Yes! In Detective Comics 647-649 - I bought ten issues off Ebay to collect those three! But I think if you read the way the story structures Steph's introduction to Batman and Robin, she's clearly making a personal connection to Tim, and all of the reader letters a few issues later were focused on how Dixon should write Tim and Steph into a romantic relationship. And given that the story could easily have been an arc of Robin, and that's the same way Dixon approached writing Tim's first 100 issues, I think it's clear that Steph is a Tim supporting character in her introductory arc of Tec.

However, I agree with you that Steph is much more than that now, and it's frustrating that Tynion didn't do a whole lot more with her until the last two issues of the run. She did interact with Anarky, though.

The whole thing with Anarky was a huge disaster. But I'm really sick of her being purely associated with Tim only, but I guess if the whole thing of him and Steph forming a connection in her debut story is true then yeah, the seeds were planted early on. I want her in more solo stories!

[juffuj5]

Also, here's a neat article about the relationship between Steph and Cass https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...cassandra-cain

[Mataza]

Um are you sure you got the right thread to post this?

Sure, just read the rest of the page.

FabNic definitely has solid knowledge of his characters, though I disagree with the directions he chooses to go with those characters. The problem is that no-ones plans in Robin #176-183 really make any sense. They're all about one-issue reveals, but when you try to piece together the whole arc and the motivations and end goals for each character, it just falls apart completely.

Actually the actions of the actors in this plot do make sense. Steph is a) becomings Tims Robin, he calls her to be the voice of reason, to keep him grounded in these difficult times. b) Doing what bruce told her to do, to make Tim better, by challenging him, she just picked a bad time to do it. In a way Bruce was just asking Steph to take care of Tim, because he knew he wasnt going to be around to do it any longer.

For 100 issues, Tim was not meant to take the mantle.

Disagree, during NML Dixon was the one writing Bruce telling Tim he was probably going to be the one to take over. You see, the thing about Tim is that he thinks hell get to have a normal life eventually, but the two times he tried to have a normal life he couldnt, the first one simply because he realized he was just scared of what would happen if being a hero became his whole life (which he got over by the end of the arc) and the second one he just could not let people be in harms way, he is a hero because he is the guy that does the right thing when no one else will.

Yost tried to get Tim back to his Teen Titans status quo - relying on people, away from his darkness

Considering Yost was the one writing Tim at his lowest and darkest point and coming out at the end of the dark tunnel with the answer that while he could do the job that batman did, he didnt need or want to be Bruce to do it. We did get a confirmation that he could, in fact, do Batmans job.

but FabNic took the Johns path again, pushing him towards a Batman who would cross lines that Bruce never would. It sometimes was interesting, but too often, it was just frustrating.

Even Bruce thought of killing chill more than once, and acted on it by visiting him. Cant blame Tim or anyone whose parents got killed for doing the same. The important thing to take away from that development wasnt that he tried, but that he stopped himself from doing it. That he came out of that struggle a better man.

I have no idea why you think Steph fans was Tim to stop being Robin (even if I do think Steph is the best Robin ever. ).

I meant something that i think DD said in this page, and that ive read it over and over again in these forums. It mostly comes down to people wanting to cram the character into a role that doesnt feel threatening to a character they are attached to.

I think Tynion did a really solid job of bringing him back to that role instead of the weird n52 Teen Titans Tim that Lobdell created.

Tynions Tim is Lodbells tim, just more likeable. There is very little from the pre flashpoint character in there, other than references and the reinstated origin.
Its about as off as Tynions Steph.

Lastly, even if you grant that Bruce was right to test Tim against villains he deliberately used (and I think that's a huge IF - one of Jon Lewis's better stories out of his really bizarre run was the birthday that Bruce faked a message from the future, and I think it showed that Bruce's plans tend to backfire when he tries that kind of stuff), having Steph hiring Scarab in particular was really, really offensive to Steph fans, since Scarab was the villain who got Steph fired as Robin and led to her "death" in War Games.

Hah, actually i thought it was kinda cool. Showed she didnt have a hang ups and that she could appreciate a pros work. Steph has always been practical.

[Godlike13]

Well that was the very reason was created in the first place to be a supporting character for Tim she's just carrying out her function. And I see that you are new here so welcome!

Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless if she’s Batgirl or not.

[Mataza]

Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless is she’s Batgirl or not.

I agree, they should pair her up with a mega famous character, to make her stand out more, maybe have her get between bruce and selina, that would get her loads of attention! Also they should probably change her hair to red or black, blondes arent doing so well lately according to the statistics. We should probably give her an accent too, to maker her distinct.

Then we should probably objectify her, worked for Nightwing! and maybe give her a dark past, that would work too! Everything for her character to sell more!

On a more serious note, Tim is in pretty great shape outside of this echo chamber (hands down one of the most talked about characters of the Rebirth era). And i dont believe their relationship ever hurt sales, in fact there is a great synergy between them when it comes to that. They are a classic pairing.
Even if i dislike the dynamic Tynion gave them.

[Godlike13]

Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.

And maybe they should involve her with Catwoman. It was something they were hinting at before. It wouldn’t be a bad place for her.

[millernumber1]

The whole thing with Anarky was a huge disaster. But I'm really sick of her being purely associated with Tim only, but I guess if the whole thing of him and Steph forming a connection in her debut story is true then yeah, the seeds were planted early on. I want her in more solo stories!

I thought it was a good idea to have Steph deal with Anarky, but it was not executed well, I agree.

More solo Steph stories would be great!

Also, here's a neat article about the relationship between Steph and Cass https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2018/0...cassandra-cain

Indeed! I posted about it here: http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post3694627

and here: http://community.comicbookresources....=1#post3697644

I would be interested to know your thoughts on the article and discussion!

Actually the actions of the actors in this plot do make sense. Steph is a) becomings Tims Robin, he calls her to be the voice of reason, to keep him grounded in these difficult times. b) Doing what bruce told her to do, to make Tim better, by challenging him, she just picked a bad time to do it. In a way Bruce was just asking Steph to take care of Tim, because he knew he wasnt going to be around to do it any longer.

Disagree, during NML Dixon was the one writing Bruce telling Tim he was probably going to be the one to take over. You see, the thing about Tim is that he thinks hell get to have a normal life eventually, but the two times he tried to have a normal life he couldnt, the first one simply because he realized he was just scared of what would happen if being a hero became his whole life (which he got over by the end of the arc) and the second one he just could not let people be in harms way, he is a hero because he is the guy that does the right thing when no one else will.

Considering Yost was the one writing Tim at his lowest and darkest point and coming out at the end of the dark tunnel with the answer that while he could do the job that batman did, he didnt need or want to be Bruce to do it. We did get a confirmation that he could, in fact, do Batmans job.

Even Bruce thought of killing chill more than once, and acted on it by visiting him. Cant blame Tim or anyone whose parents got killed for doing the same. The important thing to take away from that development wasnt that he tried, but that he stopped himself from doing it. That he came out of that struggle a better man.

Tynions Tim is Lodbells tim, just more likeable. There is very little from the pre flashpoint character in there, other than references and the reinstated origin.
Its about as off as Tynions Steph.

Hah, actually i thought it was kinda cool. Showed she didnt have a hang ups and that she could appreciate a pros work. Steph has always been practical.

Steph has already been Tim's Robin. After becoming Robin, dying, and being solo in Africa for a year, I don't think she needed to become that again. Especially not in the incompetent way FabNic portrayed her as - getting shot and then using her sex appeal to disable the General.

Hmm. What issue did Bruce tell Tim that he would become the back during NML? I just reread the whole thing in the new collections, and I don't remember that. But it's a huge story with a lot of stuff to remember. But that's still closer to the end of Dixon's 100 issues.

As a big fan of Yost's Red Robin run, I agree that Tim could do the job. I just disagree he had to become dark and morally ambiguous to do it. But FabNic disagreed, and pushed him right back in the morally ambigous hole.

I'm talking more about Titans of Tomorrow Tim when I talk about crossing the line. And I am not convinced that FabNic was trying to say that Tim came out of his deathtrap for Boomerang a better man, since Bruce disapproves of his choices at the end of the issue.

Tynion's Tim does have a lot of Lobdell's Tim in him - Batman #0 and Batman and Robin Eternal #1 are the biggest examples. But Batman Eternal Tim and most of Tec Tim is much sweeter, less cocky (though cockiness has always been part of Tim's character - and any Robin's, really), and much more loyal and connected to Batman and his goals. I suppose you could say that is "more likeable," but I think it's deeper than that. Lobdell seems to have know knowledge or love for Tim pre-Flashpoint, while Tynion clearly does, even if fans disagree with the choices he's made to develop the character.

Tynion's Steph is pretty complicated. She's definitely very different from BQM's Batgirl Steph, but I think she's a pretty solid fit for Dixon's Steph in many ways.

Appreciate a professional assassin's work? I don't think that seems in character or admirable for Steph at all. She's practical, but she's also had a proper horror and hatred of those who kill for fun or profit (as we see in Robin #35 and Detective Comics #796).

Tim’s a sinking ship, she needs to grow beyond that limited function. It’s a dead end. She was growing beyond Tim prior to Flashpoint and it’s somthing that should have been continued. Regardless if she’s Batgirl or not.

While I disagree that Tim's a sinking ship, I do think that it would be nice to see Steph functioning as a more self-reliant and motivated hero, after all the development she got pre-Flashpoint. But I also think there's merit in the goal of honoring her history pre-Batgirl, as a supporting character for Tim. And it's tricky, since unless DC is actually willing to give her even a solo miniseries or a one-shot separate from a series (so Tec 957 wouldn't count, since it's just another issue that happens to be her solo issue), having Steph establish herself as a solo hero in a team book is a bit contradictory. (Batwoman doesn't really count, since she already had a solo series under that title, while Steph's solo runs have always been under a different name than Spoiler).

I agree, they should pair her up with a mega famous character, to make her stand out more, maybe have her get between bruce and selina, that would get her loads of attention! Also they should probably change her hair to red or black, blondes arent doing so well lately according to the statistics. We should probably give her an accent too, to maker her distinct.

Then we should probably objectify her, worked for Nightwing! and maybe give her a dark past, that would work too! Everything for her character to sell more!

On a more serious note, Tim is in pretty great shape outside of this echo chamber (hands down one of the most talked about characters of the Rebirth era). And i dont believe their relationship ever hurt sales, in fact there is a great synergy between them when it comes to that. They are a classic pairing.
Even if i dislike the dynamic Tynion gave them.

Well. Valentine did pair Steph with Catwoman (though not the famous one) in her run, and that didn't seem to do much. I still think the best chance for Steph to develop is to become part of Babs's book, like she did at the end of the n52.

I'm curious where you see the positive buzz for Tim in Rebirth? I'd love to get in on those discussions, since I'm definitely tired of repeating myself about all the good things I see in Tynion's Tim.

[Frontier]

Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.

They're both going to be in the Young Justice Outsiders cartoon, which as far as media prospects seems pretty good, and it seems possible they might both be in the eventual Young Justice relaunch.

[Godlike13]

What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore. Especially Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in.

And i think the YJ show, and the little presence he has had in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects. It'll be interesting to see how the show involves Steph.

[Frontier]

What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore, and quite frankly Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in.

I don't think they would have done that Titans of Tomorrow arc if they weren't teasing to something happening, and Williamson seems to be building up to Bart coming back.

Tynion has an unannounced book and has mentioned that he will be continuing to write at least one of the Knights, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's in a Young Justice book.

And i think the YJ show, and the little presence has in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects.

We have no idea how much of a role Tim or Steph will have in Young Justice Outsiders, but the fact that they are part of the Team means they will probably at least get some considerable focus.

[Assam]

Tynion has an unannounced book and has mentioned that he will be continuing to write at least one of the Knights, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's in a Young Justice book.

Tynion has already said he isn't writing Tim anymore, so while there may be a YJ book, it won't be written by him. I also looked at his tweet again and his exact words were that he was helping to develop a book with two knights, not that he was writing one, which makes sense. Lastly, he said this this book would have two knights, not one.

[millernumber1]

What Young Justice relaunch? I know people are expecting one, but there been no build up or hints to it. Unlike all the other teams they are going to be launching. Now there will probably be one eventually, but we have no clue when or what it'll look like. And even then who says Steph has anything to do with it. This is why its not a good situation for Steph to be so dependent on Tim's and what he's doing. Because he's fighting for scraps as it is. Steph is not gonna be able to survive on his scraps anymore. Especially Tim's scraps are not reflecting well on Steph all. As we just saw with 'Tec. Which honestly Steph might have come out off with less fans, and less good will from general audiences, then she had going in.

And i think the YJ show, and the little presence he has had in it says a lot right there about his other media prospects. It'll be interesting to see how the show involves Steph.

I do think that having Young Justice and Teen Titans at the same time seems a bit redundant. And the fact that Steph has only ever been on the Gotham Knights team in her 25 years of existence, appearing only once or twice in any Teen Titans book (once as Robin, once just after she returned to give Tim moral support as he quit the team in the wake of RIP) also supports the idea that even if YJ happens, she's nowhere near a lock on being involved in it.

I do think that Steph's role in Tec has led to fewer active fans. I don't think she lost fans - I've yet to talk to anyone who actually said "I now hate Steph". They've said "I don't like current Steph", but they don't say they've lost their enjoyment of her earlier stuff. But driving people off of the title definitely hurts the ongoing, active fanbase - the people who will tweet or talk to writers about how much they like what's happening.

That being said, I think that Tec's haters are way overrepresented here and a couple other places. I got to other sites where Tec has been a favorite titles of many fans and writers.

We have no idea how much of a role Tim or Steph will have in Young Justice Outsiders, but the fact that they are part of the Team means they will probably at least get some considerable focus.

Well...Tim and Cassie didn't have a ton of focus in the second season. I do chalk a significant chunk of that up to the shorter season, so there's hope on that front...but we also have like double or triple the cast of the second season, so even with more episodes, this is going to be tight. Which is why I'm hoping for just one episode starring or co-starring Steph.

Also, since we know from Tynion's post that Johns was behind setting up the Titans of Tomorrow as the source for his duplicate Tim (as opposed to the Batman Beyond Tim, which I am still 100% certain was the original plan), there's a really good chance that Titans of Tomorrow will show up as part of Doomsday Clock.

Tynion has already said he isn't writing Tim anymore, so while there may be a YJ book, it won't be written by him. I also looked at his tweet again and his exact words were that he was helping to develop a book with two knights, not that he was writing one, which makes sense. Lastly, he said this this book would have two knights, not one.

Nice analysis! Much as a lack of Tim indicates a lack of Steph (and honestly, it could be that the project is Outsiders, and Cass will be joined by another Knight) and thus is sad news, the more we know, the better prepped we are!

[Mataza]

Great shape? No book, no real place even, no other media prospects, etc. He’s not in great shape. His stock is spiraling downward, and has been for a while. Steph needs to branch out and grow. More now then ever. Being Tim’s supporting character doesn’t provide her character anything anymore.

He is one of DCs most popular characters among its readerbase. Top 20 easily, probably lower. The only reason we havent gotten a solo yet was because Rebirth has been keeping a lot of characters on hold till we get a new development.
He has grown far more relevant in the last year and a half, he was one of the 3 leads in one of the highest selling books DC had. And thats just the "brand" (I hate that word).
The character is alive merely because of the good faith of the readers, we still havent gotten the interesting character that we did before the new 52.

Steph has already been Tim's Robin. After becoming Robin, dying, and being solo in Africa for a year, I don't think she needed to become that again. Especially not in the incompetent way FabNic portrayed her as - getting shot and then using her sex appeal to disable the General.

I think she did need to find a new starting point after getting killed. It was as good a starting point as any.

Hmm. What issue did Bruce tell Tim that he would become the back during NML? I just reread the whole thing in the new collections, and I don't remember that. But it's a huge story with a lot of stuff to remember. But that's still closer to the end of Dixon's 100 issues.

Batman 555

Wasnt dixon, it was Moench, but in the dixon era.

As a big fan of Yost's Red Robin run, I agree that Tim could do the job. I just disagree he had to become dark and morally ambiguous to do it. But FabNic disagreed, and pushed him right back in the morally ambigous hole.

I dont think Niciezas Red Robin was morally ambiguous, the character just embraced some of Bruces mania to get things done, he acknowledged it was necesary to a degree to succeed.

And I am not convinced that FabNic was trying to say that Tim came out of his deathtrap for Boomerang a better man, since Bruce disapproves of his choices at the end of the issue.

He did tho. No parent wants to see their son go down that path, but he did. He made it back tho.

Tynion's Tim does have a lot of Lobdell's Tim

The problem is deeper than just some personality traits. The big difference between the character pre and post flashpoint is very simple. One is a pragmatist, the other an idealist. From that point on everything falls apart.
Tim at his 13 being an idealist was fine, he was barely starting his career and he was just a kid. That kid grew up rapidly tho, because of his mothers death, his failures at doing the job, and his smart nature.
I can even point out exactly the moment the last straw breaks the camels back.

This is when he realizes ideals are just not enough, this whole issue is about him questioning what he does, and its one of the most on point character moments he had in his entire history.
At some level i just really hope Tynion gets this and is writing tim as an idealist because none of those experiences are with him anymore.

Tynion's Steph is pretty complicated. She's definitely very different from BQM's Batgirl Steph, but I think she's a pretty solid fit for Dixon's Steph in many ways.

The differences are just as big between Tynions steph and pre flashpoint steph.
The steph i like is the girl next door, thats her archtype. She gets on the costume to piss her dad, she stays on the costume to get the guy she likes. She gets mentored and learns what it means to be a hero.
The steph we get is this angsty super genius daughter of super genius that fails to grasp why batman does what he does. I saw brought up that her relationship with Tim hurt the character because it made her lash out, but it was stablished thats the way she thought before Tim ever died, so his demise was merely a catalyst. I really miss the old steph, she was fun!

I don't think that seems in character or admirable for Steph at all. She's practical, but she's also had a proper horror and hatred of those who kill for fun or profit (as we see in Robin #35 and Detective Comics #796).

Apreciate the fact that scarab didnt kill if she didnt have to. That she was professional enough to follow her employers instructions to the letter, and that she could be controlled if you had the money. Tho the last part backfired on her.

I'm curious where you see the positive buzz for Tim in Rebirth? I'd love to get in on those discussions, since I'm definitely tired of repeating myself about all the good things I see in Tynion's Tim.

Reddit gets Tim threads all the time, some positive, some negative, but he is being discussed a lot more than most DC characters with a book. Also a ton of positive comments on DISQUS about him and his generation every day.
Both Tims "death" and future Tims story got plenty of coverage as well. The first one was overwhelmingly positive for the character, the second one, eh. I hated that story because it was a mess where nothing made sense and it didnt flow at all.