Waffletastic Stephanie Brown Appreciation (Spoiler/Robin/Batgirl/Spoiler again)

[millernumber1]

Dick.

Though with Steph, ultimately how they redeemed her was to have her move forward. Her Batgirl didn't really have much set up even.

Most of the setup was in the actual Batgirl series, though bits and pieces were in Gotham Gazette and Oracle The Cure.

But the first arc was pretty strongly about Steph seeking to make things right after War Games, so I think it is more than just moving on.

[Godlike13]

Most of the setup was in the actual Batgirl series, though bits and pieces were in Gotham Gazette and Oracle The Cure.

But the first arc was pretty strongly about Steph seeking to make things right after War Games, so I think it is more than just moving on.

I would say the first arc was actually about Steph seeking to prove herself after War Game, more so then make thing right.

[millernumber1]

I would say the first arc was actually about Steph seeking to prove herself after War Game, more so then make thing right.

I don't see a significant difference - could you elaborate?

[Godlike13]

I don't see a significant difference - could you elaborate?

She wasn’t serving a penance or seeking atonement for War Games, or working to repair its damage, that’s not really what the first arc was about.

[millernumber1]

She wasn’t serving a penance or seeking atonement for War Games, that’s not really what the first arc was about.

Well, I think being tortured nearly to death requiring a year of recuperation is more than enough penance. I do think she was seeking atonement - making things right, changing her behavior so that she doesn't do the same thing (like FabNic had her doing...ugh).

[Godlike13]

Well, I think being tortured nearly to death requiring a year of recuperation is more than enough penance. I do think she was seeking atonement - making things right, changing her behavior so that she doesn't do the same thing (like FabNic had her doing...ugh).

I agree there, I’m not saying she needed to be punished or anything, but changing ones behavior, and trying not to make the same mistake, doesn’t just atone for ones mistakes or it’s effects.

[millernumber1]

I agree there, I’m not saying there needed to be punished or anything, but changing ones behavior doesn’t just atone for ones mistakes or it’s effects.

I mean, it's a bit hard to specifically atone for the immediate consequences of War Games, since Black Mask was dead, and the criminal/political landscape was completely different when Steph returned. However, I view her attempts to keep crimefighting, and especially to take on the Batgirl mantel, as explicitly to make Gotham a better place because of how much she screwed up in War Games, so to me, that's attempting to find redemption.

[Mataza]

Definitely agree that Steph and Tim's histories are intertwined at their roots, and she is the pairing that makes most sense for him (and he for her, in my reading, though I can see the arguments against it). I don't see her being mentored by Dinah or Bruce really stopping her from listening to Tim, though. At least not until she became Robin. Where do you see her ignoring Tim's advice and listening to someone else before that point?

Robin 80 page giant, but the tendencies were there before that, she was looking for another mentor and stopped respecting Tims authority gradually before that. Ultimately her betraying him to become robin wasnt a development that came out of nowhere.
The pairing makes sense up to a certain point, by the time he becomes Red Robin and she becomes Batgirl theres just too much water under the bridge, they hurt eachother too many times. It was time for both of them to move on.
I would have probably had them sporadically revisit their relationship over the years, slowly healing it.

I don't see many non-Steph fans even bringing up the slap. I have no doubt that if non-Steph fans did bring it up, it would be to complain about how terrible she is, just like every time they bring her up. I do agree that Steph fans were mostly not on Steph's side with the ending of the Victim Syndicate - but I think if you read it carefully, she's still sympathetic, even if she's wrong.

Agree, all im saying is that she went too far in a few places. And that i really dont like the shape the new 52 character has taken.

I just reread 934, and I really don't see Steph saying anything like that. I also checked 935 and 939. When Tim tells Steph he's going to Ivy University, it's clear that Steph will remain in Gotham, and no indication that she'll give up being a hero.

Not a hero, she just didnt agree with Batmans methods and wasnt interested in being a knight.

[millernumber1]

Robin 80 page giant, but the tendencies were there before that, she was looking for another mentor and stopped respecting Tims authority gradually before that. Ultimately her betraying him to become robin wasnt a development that came out of nowhere.
The pairing makes sense up to a certain point, by the time he becomes Red Robin and she becomes Batgirl theres just too much water under the bridge, they hurt eachother too many times. It was time for both of them to move on.
I would have probably had them sporadically revisit their relationship over the years, slowly healing it.

Agree, all im saying is that she went too far in a few places. And that i really dont like the shape the new 52 character has taken.

Not a hero, she just didnt agree with Batmans methods and wasnt interested in being a knight.

I think it's true to say that Tim's constant rejection of Steph (through not telling her his name, or giving her better training, or standing up to Batman about Bruce's constant rejection) did lead to her seeking affirmation from other people for her desire to be a hero. I don't think her becoming Robin was a betrayal, though. Steph's always been independent, so it's not like she ever took Tim's word as gospel. But she also never completely rejected him until just before she became Batgirl (again, in Gotham Gazette).

I do think that largely because of FabNic's writing of the last year of Robin, TimSteph was not in good shape, and I would definitely support their reconciliation gradually.

You're definitely not alone in disliking Steph's Rebirth direction - but I would pose the same question I've been posing for a year: what is the alternative plot for Steph that would advance her towards being a solo character? Just being a cute spunky hero (Tim's girlfriend or not) wouldn't do it. She would just become the new Azrael or Batwing, people wondering why she's there. People may dislike her plotline, but they at least know what her storyline is.

I really, really think you're making completely unjustifiable assumptions about Steph in Rebirth. Both time's she's quit the team, she never stopped being a hero. She did have emotional problems with Bruce because of Batman Eternal, but I really don't see that she's against the Knights program or only there for Tim at all. There's really nothing to support your argument in the text there.

[Mataza]

I think it's true to say that Tim's constant rejection of Steph (through not telling her his name, or giving her better training, or standing up to Batman about Bruce's constant rejection) did lead to her seeking affirmation from other people for her desire to be a hero. I don't think her becoming Robin was a betrayal, though. Steph's always been independent, so it's not like she ever took Tim's word as gospel. But she also never completely rejected him until just before she became Batgirl (again, in Gotham Gazette).

She literally went behind his back and dressed as robin to try to get the mantle. She had her priorities before wargames, and Tim wasnt one of them. And the poor kid kept trying to call her and talk. Thats as big a betrayal as any other.
As for Tim not telling his boss he was being mean to his crush, and that they should give her a chance because he likes her, thats just not Tim. The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance.

Oh, and i remember telling you it was implied Bruce was just using her.
Heres the scan.
alfred.jpg

I do think that largely because of FabNic's writing of the last year of Robin, TimSteph was not in good shape, and I would definitely support their reconciliation gradually.

Thats probably one of the reasons, but their relationship was damaged long before he wrote the characters. Nicieza didnt introduce new elements during his Robin run, he just reused old elements.

People may dislike her plotline, but they at least know what her storyline is.

Do they tho? she has probably the most convoluted origin of the batfamily right now, of which she is a side character. Which you had to read during the new 52.

Batman Eternal, but I really don't see that she's against the Knights program or only there for Tim at all. There's really nothing to support your argument in the text there.

Thats true, i seem to have misremembered some lines of dialogue, still havent reread Detective rebirth yet so i will get back to you on this.

[millernumber1]

She literally went behind his back and dressed as robin to try to get the mantle. She had her priorities before wargames, and Tim wasnt one of them. And the poor kid kept trying to call her and talk. Thats as big a betrayal as any other.
As for Tim not telling his boss he was being mean to his crush, and that they should give her a chance because he likes her, thats just not Tim. The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance.

Oh, and i remember telling you it was implied Bruce was just using her.
Heres the scan.

Thats probably one of the reasons, but their relationship was damaged long before he wrote the characters. Nicieza didnt introduce new elements during his Robin run, he just reused old elements.

Do they tho? she has probably the most convoluted origin of the batfamily right now, of which she is a side character. Which you had to read during the new 52.

Thats true, i seem to have misremembered some lines of dialogue, still havent reread Detective rebirth yet so i will get back to you on this.

Okay, if you're going to make statements like "Tim wasn't one of Steph's priorities", that betrays a significant supression or omission of huge chunks of text. She had a tangled complex of motivations in seeking to become Robin. One of them was anger at Tim for kissing Darla. Do I think Steph was acting very right by Tim when she became Robin? No. But if you can make a statement like that in all sincerity, you need to reread at least all of Willingham's run as well as War Games.

As for Steph just being Tim's crush, that's just a ridiculous. Tim told Batman directly that he was in love with Steph. Did he ever stand up for Steph? No, not really (except for a tiny hint in Gotham Knights). But it wasn't just a crush, or that he liked her.

I have no idea what you're implying when you say "The Birds gave her a chance, batman gave her a chance" - because if you're trying to say that "and Steph wasn't good enough," that's not appropriate for an appreciation thread.

I own every comic in which Steph appears as Robin, most of them twice (hard copy and digital). I've read them all multiple times. When I say that Batman's motivations are implied, which is to say not explicit, you may rest assured that I had in mind exactly that panel.

Their relationship was damaged, but Dixon clearly meant it to be on the mend when he brought her back, whereas FabNic just pushed it down the tubes. And no, it wasn't new - but it was frustratingly incoherent, especially when it comes to long term motivations and plans for every character.

How in the world is Steph's origin the most convoluted, when you have Tim's combination of n52 and Lonely Place of Dying? And what's terribly convoluted about Steph finding out her dad is Cluemaster, becoming Spoiler to stop him, and then continuing as a hero after his death? Batman Eternal is long, not super hard to follow.

[juffuj5]

Guys, James Tynion IV is going to do a AMA on the DC Reddit page. I've got some Steph-related questions to prepare. https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._june_5_at_11/

[millernumber1]

Guys, James Tynion IV is going to do a AMA on the DC Reddit page. I've got some Steph-related questions to prepare. https://www.reddit.com/r/DCcomics/co..._june_5_at_11/

Oooh, like what? I am planning to ask about Tim's parents, but will definitely try to think of Steph questions too!

[juffuj5]

Oooh, like what? I am planning to ask about Tim's parents, but will definitely try to think of Steph questions too!

Just asking why was Steph written mainly to be Tim's girlfriend instead of her own character.

[millernumber1]

Just asking why was Steph written mainly to be Tim's girlfriend instead of her own character.

Hmm. Well, I wouldn't phrase it that way myself, but a lot of Steph fans do want to know that. I am thinking of asking how the idea came to show the alternate universe to Steph and Cass, and how editorial reacted to it.