Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[UltimateTy]

Why?

B.P. v the KKK-not set in Wakanda.

Panther's Quest-not set in Wakanda.

The Client-Not set in Wakanda.

Most of Reg's run (I.e. the parts that SOLD WELL) weren't set in Wakanda.

There's value in the Fish Of Out Water angle there's value in the Stranger in a Strange Land angle and there's value in heroes hanging out with other heroes where all the other heroes hang out at.

Trying to handcuff the character (AND Namor) to a fictional nation(that goes for Atlantis too) that the fans don't care about isn't conducive tothe long term sucess of any proposed solo series.

Where's the value in that?

The last time Namor's comic sold well, he wore a suit and hung out in NYC (Byrne's 90's run).

Late response but the Fish out of Water angle gets old after a while. Obviously the part of Hudlin's run that sold better were outside Wakanda, you know why? because that was the earlier part of the run. Sales tend to go down not up (without stunts, variants etc)

and like I said before if fans don't care about Wakanda or Atlantis in Namor's case why would they be reading those books. Why would you ant to take parts away from these characters that make them unique?

[XPac]

Late response but the Fish out of Water angle gets old after a while. Obviously the part of Hudlin's run that sold better were outside Wakanda, you know why? because that was the earlier part of the run. Sales tend to go down not up (without stunts, variants etc)

and like I said before if fans don't care about Wakanda or Atlantis in Namor's case why would they be reading those books. Why would you ant to take parts away from these characters that make them unique?

Really, if you're a marvel book you're likely going to spend at least half your time in NYC. It doesn't matter if you're from Wakanda or Atlantis or Asgard. For better or for worse, it's the heart of everything in the marvel universe... always has been and likely always will be.

When Hudlin had T'Challa marry Storm, I don't think T'Challa set a foot on Wakandan soil again until Hudlin's last story arc of that volume of the book. He visited Latveria, Atlantis, and even a Skrull world but not Wakanda during that entire portion of the book. I'm neither defending it or saying it's bad... but I think that's fairly normal.

[Ajala]

So...what? Don't try new things and make excuses for it, on the grounds of "It's comfortable."?

Such logic could be applied to much more pressing and offensive issues. Ones that we won't and don't stand for. So why do it with something like the setting? Writers should actually give it that ol' college try to build UP Wakanda, by putting forth the effort to make it seem more appealing and teaming with life. Which would make things (like its destruction) seem more tragic than accidentally breaking a window with a baseball.

[XPac]

So...what? Don't try new things and make excuses for it, on the grounds of "It's comfortable."?

Such logic could be applied to much more pressing and offensive issues. Ones that we won't and don't stand for. So why do it with something like the setting?

No, writers are free to try new things. Heck, that was the point of putting T'Challa in Hells Kitchen in the first place.

I'm not saying writers can't keep the stories isolated in Wakanda. Merely that it's pretty much the norm not too (and I have a few guesses on what that is, but really no one knows for sure but the individual writers). But maybe the next writer will feel differently about it.

[Ajala]

No, writers are free to try new things. Heck, that was the point of putting T'Challa in Hells Kitchen in the first place.

I'm not saying writers can't keep the stories isolated in Wakanda. Merely that it's pretty much the norm not too (and I have a few guesses on what that is, but really no one knows for sure but the individual writers). But maybe the next writer will feel differently about it.

And the main excuse that people use for not venturing in to these other nations and sticking to the norm is because "NYC is a real city". Which is just lazy thinking in a world where we deal with superheroes, space, magic, underground societies, and alternate dimensions. Because none of that stopped people from embracing Gotham and Metropolis. Which aren't NYC. Heck, Wakanda would be closer to those two cities than Atlantis, Latveria, Asgard, or Attilan.

[skyvolt2000]

New editions to the skyvolt2000 comic library-

Jungle Action 16, 24 & 9. Some nice classic Milestone alum Gil Kane work.

Also BP guest starring in Captain America & The Falcon 171-where Falcon gets his new wings made from a certain material mentioned in the Priest Falcon mini.

this is some #fireremender business..

If that was the case this would have been the main story on this site and bleeding cool and others that despite scorch Earth back in April-this mess started up all over again. A woman getting harassed for something in a book. When that was not the case. She was not threatened, her private information is not all over the net nor did she get death threats.

When in reality all it showed was fans of a minority (mainly black) character was able to have a CIVIL (lets all say that CIVIL) conversation with a writer and maybe gave said writer an idea for her book.

Now maybe some of these other fans can learn something. Especially the faction who hate minorities being in books.

[XPac]

And the main excuse that people use for not venturing in to these other nations and sticking to the norm is because "NYC is familiar". Which is just lazy thinking in a world where we deal with superheroes, space, magic, underground societies, and alternate dimensions. Because none of that stopped people from embracing Gotham and Metroplis. Heck, Wakanda would be closer to those two cities than Atlantis, Latveria, Asgard, or Attilan.

Again, we don't know for sure why these writers would spend as much time as they do in NY and away from Wakanda (unless some writers have flat out stated their reasons).

I personally think it's two fold (though again, it's just my guess).

Firstly, I think there's a desire to play with the familiar toys in the toy box that the writers themselves grew up reading about. The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc. And they're all in New York. I think that's a reflection of the fan buy in every comic book writer coming through.

But secondly, I think for characters like T'Challa and Thor and Namor there's simply a greater vulnerability for those characters outside their realms. And I think most writers want that. If you wanna do a Kraven vs Black Panther story, odds are you don't wanna do that in Wakanda because poor Kraven in theory should need to go through the entire freaking Wakandan army to get to T'Challa. Against most threats T'Challa shouldn't even have to do anything when he's there. Have T'Challa by himself outside of Wakanda, and he becomes far more beatable. Which for story purposes is often a good thing. Occasionally you can have someone like a Doom go into Wakanda and kick behind, but that's not necessarily something you want happening all the time.

Of course, that's all just conjecture on my part. Take it for what it's worth (which isn't much).

[skyvolt2000]

And the main excuse that people use for not venturing in to these other nations and sticking to the norm is because "NYC is a real city". Which is just lazy thinking in a world where we deal with superheroes, space, magic, underground societies, and alternate dimensions. Because none of that stopped people from embracing Gotham and Metropolis. Which aren't NYC. Heck, Wakanda would be closer to those two cities than Atlantis, Latveria, Asgard, or Attilan.

Major difference-how many other heroes and villains live in Gotham & Metropolis?

Now how many are there in the others (Asgard being the obvious exception).

[Ajala]

Major difference-how many other heroes and villains live in Gotham & Metropolis?

Now how many are there in the others (Asgard being the obvious exception).

What does whether they reside there have to do with how characters are always shown IN there? It's the same exact effect. Because it's about face time/degree of exposure. Which is why it seems as if no one cares about Themyscira being blown up. Because Woman Woman spends a great deal of her time outside of it. It's the same thing with the aforementioned MU nations.

Again, we don't know for sure why these writers would spend as much time as they do in NY and away from Wakanda (unless some writers have flat out stated their reasons).

I personally think it's two fold (though again, it's just my guess).

Firstly, I think there's a desire to play with the familiar toys in the toy box that the writers themselves grew up reading about. The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc. And they're all in New York. I think that's a reflection of the fan buy in every comic book writer coming through.

But secondly, I think for characters like T'Challa and Thor and Namor there's simply a greater vulnerability for those characters outside their realms. And I think most writers want that. If you wanna do a Kraven vs Black Panther story, odds are you don't wanna do that in Wakanda because poor Kraven in theory should need to go through the entire freaking Wakandan army to get to T'Challa. Against most threats T'Challa shouldn't even have to do anything when he's there. Have T'Challa by himself outside of Wakanda, and he becomes far more beatable. Which for story purposes is often a good thing. Occasionally you can have someone like a Doom go into Wakanda and kick behind, but that's not necessarily something you want happening all the time.

Of course, that's all just conjecture on my part. Take it for what it's worth (which isn't much).

How is it a reflection of what the fans are willing to buy, when there's been next to nothing done (in terms of substance) on the other nations in comparison to a place like NYC? What do you really have to compare it to in order to honestly say that? Not much.

As for whether or not a character is vulnerable in their nation, it all comes down to writing. You can always craft interesting stories about the internal issues of said nations, and have other MU characters guest star in it, if need be. It should come down to a writer's ability to capture the audience with his/her words. What I could have sworn was one of the two draws when it comes to comic books, period. It doesn't have to be about X-established character on his/her home turf against Y-established outside character. That's only one idea.

People need to break the mold and think outside the box. Instead of writing about Ultron Armageddon, The Phoenix coming back for the umpteenth time, The Avengers "being" uncaring and incompetent Government Stooges, "Boo-hoo! One-dimensional Humans they hate us!" whinefests, and other rehashed nonsense. There's an entire book of recipes, but Marvel seems content on microwaving the same damn casserole, while adding a few carrots and calling it a brand new dish.

[XPac]

What does whether they reside there have to do with how characters are always shown IN there? It's the same exact effect. Because it's about face time/degree of exposure. Which is why it seems as if no one cares about Themyscira being blown up. Because Woman Woman spends a great deal of her time outside of it. It's the same thing with the aforementioned MU nations.



How is it a reflection of what the fans are willing to buy, when there's been next to nothing done (in terms of substance) on the other nations in comparison to a place like NYC? What do you really have to compare it to in order to honestly say that? Not much.

As for whether or not a character is vulnerable in their nation, it all comes down to writing. You can always craft interesting stories about the internal issues of said nations, and have other MU characters guest star in it, if need be. It should come down to a writer's ability to capture the audience with his/her words. What I could have sworn was one of the two draws when it comes to comic books, period. It doesn't have to be about X-established character on his/her home turf against Y-established outside character. That's only one idea.

People need to break the mold and think outside the box. Instead of writing about Ultron Armageddon, The Phoenix coming back for the umpteenth time, The Avengers "being" uncaring and incompetent Government Stooges, "Boo-hoo! One-dimensional Humans they hate us!" whinefests, and other rehashed nonsense. There's an entire book of recipes, but Marvel seems content on microwaving the same damn casserole, while adding a few carrots and calling it a brand new dish.

Really the heart of most american comic book storytelling is character X fighting character Y. And that sort of storytelling isn't for everyone certainly... but it's what you're going to get in large part from Marvel and DC. Which isn't to say they can't stray from the formula and try something else... but if that's not what you're interested in then you're probably better off looking elsewhere.

It's like going into a Krispy Cremes and complaining they don't sell enough healthy options. Nothing is exactly preventing Krispy Kremes from throwing salads on the menu, but at the same time if that's what you're looking for you're probably better off looking elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I do think DC does a bit of a better job spreading things out. Marvel LOVES NY. For better or for worse, it's how it's been and I suspect that's how it always will be.

[Joe Acro]

I moved the entirety of the conversation about vibranium to here. It belonged in its own thread, following its own thoughts, so now it is.

In the future, less preaching to the choir, more open discussion for all. Thanks.

[Ajala]

Really the heart of most american comic book storytelling is character X fighting character Y. And that sort of storytelling isn't for everyone certainly... but it's what you're going to get in large part from Marvel and DC. Which isn't to say they can't stray from the formula and try something else... but if that's not what you're interested in then you're probably better off looking elsewhere.

It's like going into a Krispy Cremes and complaining they don't sell enough healthy options. Nothing is exactly preventing Krispy Kremes from throwing salads on the menu, but at the same time if that's what you're looking for you're probably better off looking elsewhere.

For what it's worth, I do think DC does a bit of a better job spreading things out. Marvel LOVES NY. For better or for worse, it's how it's been and I suspect that's how it always will be.

For starters, I didn't say that I disliked "X character vs. Y character throwdowns". Which was your own example that you brought up. So let's not begin a post with a lying accusation. I merely said that Marvel can successfully do (and have done) more than that. Which is why I mentioned how that is but one idea, and why there is no real reason to constantly stay in NYC when they already have other nations in the MU. Such as Wakanda, Attilan, etc...etc..

The rest of your post was just addressing what I didn't even say. As it was mainly about rehashing the same idea in general. Not whether or not I like an issue/theme for what it is.

[XPac]

For starters, I didn't say that I disliked "X character vs. Y character throwdowns". Which was your own example that you brought up. So let's not begin a post with a lying accusation. I merely said that Marvel can successfully do (and have done) more than that. Which is why I mentioned how that is but one idea, and why there is no real reason to constantly stay in NYC when they already have other nations in the MU. Such as Wakanda, Attilan, etc...etc..

The rest of your post was just addressing what I didn't even say. As it was mainly about rehashing the same idea in general. Not whether or not I like an issue/theme for what it is.

I think the reason Marvel stays in NY is actually pretty simple... I think they essentially want to. It's a NY company and I think they choose to wear that on their sleeve. Nothing every mandated that their stories HAVE to center around NY... but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Like I said, I think DC is a bit better at that. Most of the major heroes have their own cities to defend (though a lot are essentialy variations of NY), but Marvel likes using the real deal. And to a degree that's probably also a reflection of Marvel wanting to look a tad more like the real world than the competitiion.

I suppose it's not too unusual if you really think about it though. Most Japanesse manga takes place in Japan. Granted a fair share takes place in space or in the past, depending on the genre. But there probably aren't a whole lot of manga's which take place in say Mexico or Canada or Russia. I do think comics often do like having their stories take place in the world that exists outside their window.

Either way, for what it's worth a lot of the current New Avengers stuff is taking place in Wakanda. Moreso than NY at least. So for those wishing for a slighty change in scenery, we're at least getting that now.

[UltimateTy]

I think the reason Marvel stays in NY is actually pretty simple... I think they essentially want to. It's a NY company and I think they choose to wear that on their sleeve. Nothing every mandated that their stories HAVE to center around NY... but I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Like I said, I think DC is a bit better at that. Most of the major heroes have their own cities to defend (though a lot are essentialy variations of NY), but Marvel likes using the real deal. And to a degree that's probably also a reflection of Marvel wanting to look a tad more like the real world than the competitiion.

I suppose it's not too unusual if you really think about it though. Most Japanesse manga takes place in Japan. Granted a fair share takes place in space or in the past, depending on the genre. But there probably aren't a whole lot of manga's which take place in say Mexico or Canada or Russia. I do think comics often do like having their stories take place in the world that exists outside their window.

Either way, for what it's worth a lot of the current New Avengers stuff is taking place in Wakanda. Moreso than NY at least. So for those wishing for a slighty change in scenery, we're at least getting that now.

Marvel do seem to be trying to make it less NY concentrated with DD in SF, Agent Venom in Philly, Scarlet Spider in Texas, X-Men in Canada etc

[XPac]

Marvel do seem to be trying to make it less NY concentrated with DD in SA, Agent Venom in Philly, Scarlet Spider in Texas, X-Men in Canada etc

That's a fair point. NY is still the big meeting point where everything goes down (like Original sin for example, where West Coast DD and the Canadian X-Men are right there alongside Spider-Man in downtown NY when all the eye ball stuff goes down), but at least the heroes by default aren't living a 5 minute drive away from each other.

Still think within 2-4 years DD will be back in Hells Kitchen while the revolution will find it's way back to the Jean Grey school, but at least for now things are a bit more spread out.

And like I said, Illuminati is working out of Wakanda. So there's that. I'm not sure we've seen them collectively in NY since the book began.