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  1. #76621
    CBB 4 LIFE Mr MajestiK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Black Panther has had 200 comics.

    Vol 3 ran for 60+ issues. With no tie ins and being ignored by the entire comic universe much to Priest's chagrin.

    Vol 4 and 5 ran over a combined 50+ issues

    They stripped a character of everything, threw him into hells kitchen, and still did 15 ish issues.... which is longer than a lot of "popular" characters *coughcoughcoughcoughahem* longest runs.


    One thing to note about T'challa's sales is that:

    a) he is black. Which put him behind the 8 ball for decades. Just ask Don.

    b) he has never had any support from Marvel before Hickman New Avengers run. He never got A list writers. He never got to play in the "big" events until Hudlin forced him in.... and even then, the main event titles ignored him. T'challa runs a super country with tech beyond everyone else and yet that never effects a single thing around the Marvel Universe? How? What ist he coolest thing T'challa has done in an Avengers book? Punch out Skulls Jaw and..... ???? There were no toys, no tshirts, no merch whatsoever.

    c) Hickman is the first time a big writer made him "important" in a main book. Despite some of his unpopular decisions regarding the mythos, the panel time in that book and then SW was invaluable for the franchise. T'challa was important for 5 years and then that spring boarded into his solo (+ CW movie and the accompanying merch and publicity explosion) that has sold very well.


    This "solo can't sustain" stuff is frankly crap right now and outdated as hell. Black Panther just had an ANNOUNCED MINI that stayed in the 18000+ range... which is above cancellation these days. The "anything below 25 or 20 is cancellation zone!" hasn't been true for a couple years now. under 18000 it gets a little shady but there have been many titles now that survive in the 16000-18000 range.

    Marvel is using gimmicks to boost sales of Black Panther... just like every other franchise they care about! Black Pantheri s just finally getting to benefit from the same crap that Marvel has pulled with its other "big" titles for years now. Hell, even with these "gimmicks"... Panther hasn't been able to tie into events AT ALL. No CWII tie ins, no Pleasant Hill, no SE, no Infinity Stone thing. It has been self contained.

    I would also like to point out, that BP 172, the end of the run and before the relaunch... Panther outsold Deadpool, Miles, All NEw Wolverine, Dr. Strange, Moon Knight, Punisher, and Incredible Hulk. Rise of the Black Panther, an ANNOUNCED MINI WHICH KILLS SALES, in the same month, outsold Cable, Spider-Gwen, Rogue/Gambit, Champions, and Ms Marvel.


    I don't like Coates run content wise. I won't deny it hasn't been selling well and is 100% sustainable right now. The thing is, this isn't just due to Coates like some people like to hang on... it is because Marvel is finally treating the franchise like a property that can sell for once. I'd be really curious what BP could sell without such a controversial writer who can't get hardcores to buy in completely and due to his politcal leanings, pushes away the core comic base a bit just because of his name. I mean, shit, Rise, with a neophyte journalist as a writer, sold 18K plus despite being announced as a mini... all because he didn't write T'challa like a bitch. What could that same "style" accomplish with Marvel's full power behind it?
    I'm still amazed that someone would even seek to cast aspersions on BP sales at this point?

    Makes zero sense to me.
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  2. #76622
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    I don't know why anyone would doubt the dude at this point. At least wait until he makes a bad movie (it is inevitable) before worrying about it.

    And, from a quick wiki search, he didn't write Wrong Answer, just directing/producing
    Ryan Coogler will not make a bad film anytime soon. He's to great at making films.

  3. #76623
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    So, this was on a CBR article about Marvel reshuffling its film schedule:
    Once a relatively dead month for movies, except for the stray romance, February became prime territory for big-budget superhero features in 2016 with the release of Deadpool, which set a number of box office records for the month. Marvel found blockbuster success this February with director Ryan Cooglerís Black Panther, which earned $1.3 billion worldwide.
    It caught my eye because Marvel Studios once bumped BP when they got access to Spider-Man. Now BP is reshaping what people think about film release dates. Irony.

  4. #76624
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beware Of Geek View Post
    The problem arises when people (not our esteemed brother butterflykyss) are hypocrites about it, and give Coates credit for the book's successes (ignoring such details as the artist, variant covers, and the occasional stunt renumbering) but then turn around and blame the market when the sales inevitably drop.

    And there's a major difference between now and when Priest & Hudlin wrote the book. Actually, there are almost 7 billion reasons.
    Well I don't think it's hypocritical. I actually thought the sales of the first issue were pretty indicative of the enthusiasm people had in the new story that T'challa was facing; however, that was a completely wrong and very premature to make that assumption. The article that Cville linked to is very much so demonstrates this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr MajestiK View Post
    Why would anyone call you names or otherwise be wholly unpleasant if you come in here and post discussion stimulating topics?

    Speaking for myself, I don't give a jot about overall sales as long as a writer delivers thought provoking and action packed stories with the titular character front and centre within their OWN solo book.

    As for BLACK Panther solos supposedly not being able to "sustain themselves," Priest's BP ran for just over 60 issues whilst Hudlin's ran for roughly 40 + issues before being cancelled after Jonathan Maberry took over writing duties which in turn makes Reginald Hudlin the only BP author to script a run that was not cancelled during his tenure chronicling T'Challa' s adventures.

    There are some mainstream characters who can't even manage to sustain an on going solo beyond 12 issues so I think T'Challa will be fine moving forward..
    I thought the conversation regarding Adversary and Ororo were stimulating but it definitely resulted in exchanges I would prefer not having when having friendly discussion which may include some disagreements.

    That said, I think that is actually the best attitude to have with solo efforts. With your mentions of Priest and Hudlin's run that was different time and different era. Again, as the article Cville linked to demonstrated the bleeding and poor sales is reflective across the market. And to you point about Storm's solo not getting above 12 issues, some characters luckily have the backing a company fully vested in the book even if it doesn't sell well. I think of Captain Marvel and Squirrel girl specifically. Storm's success or lack there of has a lot to do with gender and race (with race being a factor I believe that affects BP sustainability), as well as Marvel not owning the full rights to the Xmen. Marvel won't put the full backing in a character they don't own, which Captain Marvel and T'challa luckily don't have that problem attached to them. But as I figured some would occur with my post continue to throw the shade about Ororo instead of trying to examine the real reasons Tchalla's solo book sustainability seem to be problematic. Throwing digs at Ororo is not addressing the problem I see in T'challa's solo sustainability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezyo1000 View Post
    Difference being Hudlin had a relaunch after 40+ issues of success, whereas Coates had a renumbering boost what, 18 issue's in? Followed by a relaunch after S2 ended. Different times, Coates is working with MCU power and T'Challa being a known entity. Priest and Hudlin built him to that point and instead of striking while the iron was hot and doing more of that elevation, Coates instead says "well the writer's before me have built him up enough so that he is always seen as awesome awesome awesome (bit the case, they showed him struggling as well) so I am going to show people how he isn't so awesome all the time" and when you do that while providing s very biased and boring series that sidelines the Character you get Coates situation where he needs constant saving by Marvel. I guarantee you Hudlin's and priest runs would last Alot longer if they launched with the backing Coates is getting. Because there stories are solid
    I'm not knocking on previous writers and what they did to elevate this character. Also, how are you concluding Priest and Hudlin didn't have the full backing of Marvel? Didn't Hudlin's book get relaunched after his first run? I don't agree with your assessment of how T'challa was written. I think you have to consider all the things that plagued him going into the book Coates wrote. For me at least he needed to go through a redemption story of sorts to make a lot of the trails he endured well before Coates was even attached to T'challa.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Black Panther has had 200 comics.

    Vol 3 ran for 60+ issues. With no tie ins and being ignored by the entire comic universe much to Priest's chagrin.

    Vol 4 and 5 ran over a combined 50+ issues

    They stripped a character of everything, threw him into hells kitchen, and still did 15 ish issues.... which is longer than a lot of "popular" characters *coughcoughcoughcoughahem* longest runs.


    One thing to note about T'challa's sales is that:

    a) he is black. Which put him behind the 8 ball for decades. Just ask Don.

    b) he has never had any support from Marvel before Hickman New Avengers run. He never got A list writers. He never got to play in the "big" events until Hudlin forced him in.... and even then, the main event titles ignored him. T'challa runs a super country with tech beyond everyone else and yet that never effects a single thing around the Marvel Universe? How? What ist he coolest thing T'challa has done in an Avengers book? Punch out Skulls Jaw and..... ???? There were no toys, no tshirts, no merch whatsoever.

    c) Hickman is the first time a big writer made him "important" in a main book. Despite some of his unpopular decisions regarding the mythos, the panel time in that book and then SW was invaluable for the franchise. T'challa was important for 5 years and then that spring boarded into his solo (+ CW movie and the accompanying merch and publicity explosion) that has sold very well.


    This "solo can't sustain" stuff is frankly crap right now and outdated as hell. Black Panther just had an ANNOUNCED MINI that stayed in the 18000+ range... which is above cancellation these days. The "anything below 25 or 20 is cancellation zone!" hasn't been true for a couple years now. under 18000 it gets a little shady but there have been many titles now that survive in the 16000-18000 range.

    Marvel is using gimmicks to boost sales of Black Panther... just like every other franchise they care about! Black Pantheri s just finally getting to benefit from the same crap that Marvel has pulled with its other "big" titles for years now. Hell, even with these "gimmicks"... Panther hasn't been able to tie into events AT ALL. No CWII tie ins, no Pleasant Hill, no SE, no Infinity Stone thing. It has been self contained.

    I would also like to point out, that BP 172, the end of the run and before the relaunch... Panther outsold Deadpool, Miles, All NEw Wolverine, Dr. Strange, Moon Knight, Punisher, and Incredible Hulk. Rise of the Black Panther, an ANNOUNCED MINI WHICH KILLS SALES, in the same month, outsold Cable, Spider-Gwen, Rogue/Gambit, Champions, and Ms Marvel.


    I don't like Coates run content wise. I won't deny it hasn't been selling well and is 100% sustainable right now. The thing is, this isn't just due to Coates like some people like to hang on... it is because Marvel is finally treating the franchise like a property that can sell for once. I'd be really curious what BP could sell without such a controversial writer who can't get hardcores to buy in completely and due to his politcal leanings, pushes away the core comic base a bit just because of his name. I mean, shit, Rise, with a neophyte journalist as a writer, sold 18K plus despite being announced as a mini... all because he didn't write T'challa like a bitch. What could that same "style" accomplish with Marvel's full power behind it?
    I think you have made a lot of valid points, especially the points about race and the writer. To the latter, I think Coates was a big enough writer coming in but maybe the problem was the controversy around his name, as well as him never actually writing a comic. I think aside from the writer point, I think the bigger point is the race factor. I'm not convince that the predominant comic readers (who tend to be white male) sincerely want to read about a black character, even with the success that the movie had because movie sales never translate to comic sales. And if it does it is not for any long duration of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cville View Post
    Since we're talking about sales, CBR did their analysis.

    https://www.cbr.com/mayo-report-comi...18-analysis/2/
    Thank you this hits on the point I was making about the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Black Panther has a BILLION DOLLAR MOVIE under his belt.

    His trades DOMINATED sells charts especially on Amazon where every single book that had him was top 150 in sells.
    His days of no solo is over. Especially when Carol Danvers can get shot after shot after shot after shot.
    Oh I agree, especially with the last part; however, I don't think his movie sales has anything to do with how well his solo book will sale. There are not like for like in terms of what a consumer will pay for.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 07-10-2018 at 02:13 PM.
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  5. #76625
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksonic View Post
    Ryan Coogler will not make a bad film anytime soon. He's to great at making films.
    He is great at making great movies. But his special effects needs a lot of work. Here’s hoping he improves a lot for the sequel.

    He has the best cinematography in the MCU even any superhero film produced yet, however his inability to incorporate the green screen brings the shots down some.

    I’m guessing Marvel Studios mandate all filming happens one atlanta, hence why he had to use a lot of green screen. He will have to adopt to it better.
    Last edited by Punjabi_Hitman; 07-10-2018 at 02:15 PM.

  6. #76626
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post

    I’m guessing Marvel Studios mandate all filming happens one atlanta, hence why he had to use a lot of green screen. He will have to adopt to it better.
    This isn't true.
    Black Panther Appreciation Blog: http://blackpanthermarvel.blogspot.com/

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  7. #76627
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    so I was reluctant to say this here because I knew from this I would certainly be called all types of deprecating things but i figured this needed to be said despite this. BP and him doing well or not well isnt tied to Coates. It's honestly just a sign of the market as comic books all around are not doing that hot. Also this has happened before. It occurred with Hudlin which a lot of you here swear by but his original run was relaunched and it ended suffering a similar fate:

    http://www.comicsbeat.com/marvel-mon...february-2009/

    The much-hyped relaunch of BLACK PANTHER, trailed with plenty of house ads, see the expected jump in sales. But BLACK PANTHER has done better than this in the past Ė this number is roughly on a par with its CIVIL WAR tie-ins from a couple of years ago. This opening arc is a Dark Reign tie-in, incidentally.

    The pattern with this book, under Reginald Hudlinís authorship, seems to be that it does quite well so long as itís tying in to major crossovers, but struggles a bit when left to its own devices. Iím not convinced itíll be any different this time, but you never know.


    Well we do know how that ended for hudlin. The point being is I know a lot of you are happy about these numbers but I suspect even if you get the writers you want and the stories you want this tale would still end similarly because it's not the writing or stories that is the problem: it's the market. I would caution being excited about these numbers and truly seek to understand why BP solos cant sustain itself.
    As many have pointed out, BP has had successful runs despite little to no promotion from Marvel. And there are many popular characters who don't have lengthy solo runs.

    In this era of comics, wondering why BP can't sustain a solo is the wrong way to look at it.

    This is the most important thing: BP continues to get opportunities for solos because he's a viable character and can be done very well in the right hands. There is a built in hardcore Panther fanbase of about 15-20 thousand readers who follow BP. You make sure to grab that audience and then expand outward because these are the readers who will be around for the next BP solo or will follow BP in other titles.

    There are a lot of characters who don't have lengthy solo runs. But some of these characters continue to get solo opportunities, minis, appear in other titles get promo pushes and get trades out as well as other products like toys, clothing etc. BP is in that class now.
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  8. #76628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redjack View Post
    May I invite you to my DEVIANT ART PAGE
    How did I miss this?

    This is really cool!
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  9. #76629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post
    He is great at making great movies. But his special effects needs a lot of work. Here’s hoping he improves a lot for the sequel.

    He has the best cinematography in the MCU even any superhero film produced yet, however his inability to incorporate the green screen brings the shots down some.

    I’m guessing Marvel Studios mandate all filming happens one atlanta, hence why he had to use a lot of green screen. He will have to adopt to it better.
    I would also add that the action should be improved as well.

    I think the CGI problem could be based on the assumption Marvel spent a lot of their money on Infinity War with the special effects, action set pieces and the amount of cast members and extras which may have caused them to spend a bit less on other movies during the time of shooting.

  10. #76630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punjabi_Hitman View Post
    He is great at making great movies. But his special effects needs a lot of work. Hereís hoping he improves a lot for the sequel.

    He has the best cinematography in the MCU even any superhero film produced yet, however his inability to incorporate the green screen brings the shots down some.

    Iím guessing Marvel Studios mandate all filming happens one atlanta, hence why he had to use a lot of green screen. He will have to adopt to it better.
    That's not Ryan's Coogler's special effects. It's only his great writing and directing. What you are talking about is called Marvel being bias and not thinking Black Panther would be huge at the BOX OFFICE and putting all the great special effects into IW.

  11. #76631
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    Quote Originally Posted by blacksonic View Post
    That's not Ryan's Coogler's special effects. It's only his great writing and directing. What you are talking about is called Marvel being bias and not thinking Black Panther would be huge at the BOX OFFICE and putting all the great special effects into IW.
    The movie did have over a 200 million dollar budget, which is higher than most solo marvel films. So the money was there... I'm just not sure what happened with the CGI. Maybe it was rushed or whatever.

  12. #76632
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The movie did have over a 200 million dollar budget, which is higher than most solo marvel films. So the money was there... I'm just not sure what happened with the CGI. Maybe it was rushed or whatever.
    Probably this.

    I heard that the special effects for scene where T'Challa and Killmonger where falling down in to the Vibranium mines were still being worked on in December (two months before release) by one of the visual effects company and said it was hell working on those effects over that period of time.

  13. #76633
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    The General Okoye Workout...


    Gracing the cover of Women's Health magazine is Wkabi's beloved...


    https://www.womenshealthmag.com/fitn...ira-interview/


    https://people.com/health/black-pant...urira-fitness/



  14. #76634
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    The CBR #1 MCU movie is...


    (insert drumroll right here with a Ludwig Goransson beat)


    https://www.cbr.com/every-mcu-movie-ranked/

  15. #76635
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Well I don't think it's hypocritical. I actually thought the sales of the first issue were pretty indicative of the enthusiasm people had in the new story that T'challa was facing; however, that was a completely wrong and very premature to make that assumption. The article that Cville linked to is very much so demonstrates this.



    I thought the conversation regarding Adversary and Ororo were stimulating but it definitely resulted in exchanges I would prefer not having when having friendly discussion which may include some disagreements.

    That said, I think that is actually the best attitude to have with solo efforts. With your mentions of Priest and Hudlin's run that was different time and different era. Again, as the article Cville linked to demonstrated the bleeding and poor sales is reflective across the market. And to you point about Storm's solo not getting above 12 issues, some characters luckily have the backing a company fully vested in the book even if it doesn't sell well. I think of Captain Marvel and Squirrel girl specifically. Storm's success or lack there of has a lot to do with gender and race (with race being a factor I believe that affects BP sustainability), as well as Marvel not owning the full rights to the Xmen. Marvel won't put the full backing in a character they don't own, which Captain Marvel and T'challa luckily don't have that problem attached to them. But as I figured some would occur with my post continue to throw the shade about Ororo instead of trying to examine the real reasons Tchalla's solo book sustainability seem to be problematic. Throwing digs at Ororo is not addressing the problem I see in T'challa's solo sustainability.



    I'm not knocking on previous writers and what they did to elevate this character. Also, how are you concluding Priest and Hudlin didn't have the full backing of Marvel? Didn't Hudlin's book get relaunched after his first run? I don't agree with your assessment of how T'challa was written. I think you have to consider all the things that plagued him going into the book Coates wrote. For me at least he needed to go through a redemption story of sorts to make a lot of the trails he endured well before Coates was even attached to T'challa.



    I think you have made a lot of valid points, especially the points about race and the writer. To the latter, I think Coates was a big enough writer coming in but maybe the problem was the controversy around his name, as well as him never actually writing a comic. I think aside from the writer point, I think the bigger point is the race factor. I'm not convince that the predominant comic readers (who tend to be white male) sincerely want to read about a black character, even with the success that the movie had because movie sales never translate to comic sales. And if it does it is not for any long duration of time.



    Thank you this hits on the point I was making about the market.



    Oh I agree, especially with the last part; however, I don't think his movie sales has anything to do with how well his solo book will sale. There are not like for like in terms of what a consumer will pay for.
    What exactly do you think Tchalla needed redemption for? Because the stuff we saw made zero sense in S1 and 2. Really it felt like Coates simply didn't like and/or understand things about the mythos and felt the need to address them, even if that meant hurting then mythos as a whole. Dod you know in a podcast he actually said his season 2 wasn't for dedicated BP fans? Basically he wanted to tell thistory he did and it wasn't elevate T'Challa or Wakanda.

    As for your controversy point, are talking about from BP fans? Because in general there was hype from all over
    But dedicated fans were paying attention tonehst he said in interviews and that's where people started worrying about Tchalla and his treatment because of what was said.

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