Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[XPac]

Under the right writer and the right story, Shuri would be a great "villain." Especially adult Shuri.

The closer you are to the hero, the more powerful the heel turn because it's more personal. I can't dispute that her being a T'Challa villain wouldn't potentially be a massive story because such it's such a massive betrayal. No one would see that coming.

Still wouldn't agree it necessarily makes sense or it's the best direction to take with the character. But yes ... with the right writer and story it could work. I'm just not sure it would be worth it.

[Realdealholy]

The closer you are to the hero, the more powerful the heel turn because it's more personal. I can't dispute that her being a T'Challa villain wouldn't potentially be a massive story because such it's such a massive betrayal. No one would see that coming.

Still wouldn't agree it necessarily makes sense or it's the best direction to take with the character. But yes ... with the right writer and story it could work. I'm just not sure it would be worth it.

The way I envisioned it, she doesn't have to be a villain of T'Challa. Just a "villain" in a specific story. She makes certain actions and decisions that she feels is righteous (and may have some good justification behind them) but said actions may not benefit the greater good.

Btw, I have no issues whatsoever with heroes being villains or doing villaneous things in a story, as long as the story is well done and the character is well-portrayed. Namor was a great "villain" for a good portion of New Avengers. The Hydra Cap story arc was one of the best arcs at the time imho, specifically the Cap book (Secrer Empire was okay, overall, imho) and Cap's portrayal in the Cap books was solid and, in some cases, very good if not great.

Both T'Challa and Shuri can be very good "villains" depending on the story and how well it's done. Their status as monarchs makes it a lot easier to do such a thing for a story. In Shuri's case, you can argue that she's not at all a hero from the onset.

[Mike_Murdock]

If Shuri had come back from the dead as a villain, that would have been a disappointment because it's so cliche. She was arguably a bit of an antagonist during Hickman's New Avengers even if she wasn't a villain.

[Ezyo1000]

Sure, turning Shuri into a villain theoretically could work. Initially she had jealousy issues with her brother. But again, I just Don't see the point of literally throwing away the characters development and history just to create a new villain. IMO seems a whole lot simpler to just use or create another character rather molding an existing one into what your story calls for. Instead if heel turning Shuri simply use Malice or Zanda or Zenzi or Madam Slay and you're good to go.

Except you don't have to throw away Character development at all. Again Doom is a Hero bow and none of his character development is gone. And I'm talking about turning a good Character that went bad back into a good Character.

[Realdealholy]

If Shuri had come back from the dead as a villain, that would have been a disappointment because it's so cliche. She was arguably a bit of an antagonist during Hickman's New Avengers even if she wasn't a villain.

There was the "world sold Wakanda out" angle that could've been used as the catalyst for a potentially antagonistic / villainous Shuri.

A lot of plot points and/or stories themes could be considered cliche or at the least not that original. So long as it's well done and well executed, I think it will work.

To clarify, I'm not gung-ho on Shuri and/ T'Challa being villains in a story. If it were to happen, however, I hope that it is well done and that the characters are well portrayed.

[XPac]

The way I envisioned it, she doesn't have to be a villain of T'Challa. Just a "villain" in a specific story. She makes certain actions and decisions that she feels is righteous (and may have some good justification behind them) but said actions may not benefit the greater good.

Btw, I have no issues whatsoever with heroes being villains or doing villaneous things in a story, as long as the story is well done and the character is well-portrayed. Namor was a great "villain" for a good portion of New Avengers. The Hydra Cap story arc was one of the best arcs at the time imho, specifically the Cap book (Secrer Empire was okay, overall, imho) and Cap's portrayal in the Cap books was solid and, in some cases, very good if not great.

Both T'Challa and Shuri can be very good "villains" depending on the story and how well it's done. Their status as monarchs makes it a lot easier to do such a thing for a story. In Shuri's case, you can argue that she's not at all a hero from the onset.

I can see your point with Shuri ... less so for T'Challa, but she potentially might go against the greater good if it suits her. T'Chaka made the point in Time Runs Out that being a king at times means being a monster. T'Challa ended up defying that, but Shuri MIGHT be more willing to compromise herself. It's hard to say.

[Ezyo1000]

That could work. Probably the best way to go.



How is current Shuri that different from Hickman's Shuri? Outside of current Shuri being more mellow and a costume change, there's very little difference between the two. Both were respected leaders in Wakanda. Both can be pragmatic on occasions. Both can be ruthless. Both have nationalistic tendencies. And both can be somewhat impatient in some cases, not to the degree of the Mayberry days though.

Shuri hasn't been that hot-heated person that puts their emotions on their sleeves in a long, long time.

She is different in her attitude, look abd powerset completely. Which is fine but I was also saying let's not pretend that if Shuri can Change personalities as well as looks and powers that Nakia can't do the same

[XPac]

She is different in her attitude, look abd powerset completely. Which is fine but I was also saying let's not pretend that if Shuri can Change personalities as well as looks and powers that Nakia can't do the same

There's are differences but she's still the same person. It's not like she suddenly became a super villain or anything. She's just a smarter more powerful version of what she previously was.

Had she done a 180 and turned on T'Challa or Wakanda I'd be more critical of it.

[Realdealholy]

She is different in her attitude, look abd powerset completely. Which is fine but I was also saying let's not pretend that if Shuri can Change personalities as well as looks and powers that Nakia can't do the same

This isn't the first time Shuri has her personality changed, adjusted and/or altered and she's been heading towards the current direction (personality wise) for quite some time. Hudlin Shuri at the start of Hudlin's run is different from that of the end of his run, which was different from Mayberry Shuri, which was different from Liss Shuri, which was def different from Hickman Shuri and so on. For the most part, said adjustments were either explained or at the least made some sense.

If 616 Nakia was to make a comeback with the intention of being T'Challa's love interest, she will definitely need a story arc to make that transition. How that story arc is executed is a different question, but--outside of obvious adjustments like aging her--that story arc is a must, imho, especially since she'll be going from outright villain to a redeemed love interest.

The suggestion of Ultimate Nakia showing up can work and may be a smoother transition overall if one doesn't want to go through the story arc hurdle. Getting solomon's frogs involved to make it happen can work too.

[Realdealholy]

All that being said, Nakia, Okoye, M'Baku, Killmonger, and even Ross should come back to the comics, especially due to their movie appearances. New readers will be anticipating some or even all of those characters to make an appearance at some point.

Would be interesting to see them interact with the newer characters too.

[XPac]

All that being said, Nakia, Okoye, M'Baku, Killmonger, and even Ross should come back to the comics, especially due to their movie appearances. New readers will be anticipating some or even all of those characters to make an appearance at some point.

Truthfully all those guys shouldn't have been removed from the comics and placed in limbo to begin with. Priest did such a good job building a strong supporting cast for BP ... it's a shame so much was under utilized, ignored, or even killed off after he left the book.

That said, Coates doing a pretty descent job digging up characters from limbo, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if we didn't see a few familiar faces pop up at some point.

[King_Thor13]

All that being said, Nakia, Okoye, M'Baku, Killmonger, and even Ross should come back to the comics, especially due to their movie appearances. New readers will be anticipating some or even all of those characters to make an appearance at some point.

Would be interesting to see them interact with the newer characters too.

A number of additions to the MCU have brought obscure or somewhat unutilized characters to the forefront, the Guardians of the Galaxy being the most prominent example. I'd hope that Coates or whoever writes Black Panther next brings in some of these characters. Especially Killmonger.

[Ezyo1000]

This isn't the first time Shuri has her personality changed, adjusted and/or altered and she's been heading towards the current direction (personality wise) for quite some time. Hudlin Shuri at the start of Hudlin's run is different from that of the end of his run, which was different from Mayberry Shuri, which was different from Liss Shuri, which was def different from Hickman Shuri and so on. For the most part, said adjustments were either explained or at the least made some sense.

If 616 Nakia was to make a comeback with the intention of being T'Challa's love interest, she will definitely need a story arc to make that transition. How that story arc is executed is a different question, but--outside of obvious adjustments like aging her--that story arc is a must, imho, especially since she'll be going from outright villain to a redeemed love interest.

The suggestion of Ultimate Nakia showing up can work and may be a smoother transition overall if one doesn't want to go through the story arc hurdle. Getting solomon's frogs involved to make it happen can work too.

We are saying the same thing, Shuri has made drastic changes since her Creation (Which I dont agree with her current personality which was pretty much switching personalities with Tchalla) so therefore there is no reason Nakia can't receive the same treatment, especially with easy explainable objects that xan explain it such ad the frogs

[Ezyo1000]

Truthfully all those guys shouldn't have been removed from the comics and placed in limbo to begin with. Priest did such a good job building a strong supporting cast for BP ... it's a shame so much was under utilized, ignored, or even killed off after he left the book.

That said, Coates doing a pretty descent job digging up characters from limbo, so I wouldn't at all be surprised if we didn't see a few familiar faces pop up at some point.

I don't think digging up 3 limbo Characters for one issue is doing a good job

[Mike_Murdock]

I'm seeing an argument for why we could, I'm not seeing an argument for why we should.