Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[Tony Stark]

Tony is the best character the MCU has produced. He's grown tremendously in his 10 years.

I think so to. Although I might be a little biased lol.

[Ezyo1000]

I do agree Erik was the most well-developed character even though his screen time wasn't the longest. Don't get me wrong. T'challa was great and I can understand his every choice throughout the movie but as a lead character comparing to like Ironman and Captain America, I don't see a strong core belief this character holds just like others do. Hopefully it will be made up in next Black Panther movie.

Hos core Belief is mentioned alot in the movie and really set a tone for what the movie is about. "Who are you" that is said multiple times on the movie to different degree's. He wants to live up to his father's legacy, he wants to be a good king, and like his father said, it's hard for a good Man to be King. His whole story through out the movie is essentially being a good man AND a good King, something his father failed to do.

Also Cap and Ironman are different because they don't have any responsibility whatso ever. Their actions didn't effect an entire nation.

I'm not saying he should have changed the way he wrote killmonger or any character. They're good characters. I'm saying he should have wrote T'Challa better. Google what a passive protagonist/reactive protagonist is. That's what T'Challa was in the movie. I bet articles about how to write a good protagonist would contain everything Coogler didn't do.

Tchalla wasn't passive at all. He actively took down kidnapper's at the start of the movie, actively put hands on M'Baku yet still was respectful despite having every reason to embarrass/ or kill him for what he said to him, and tells him essentially "you fought with honor but your people still need their leader" showing wisdom. He actively went after klaw as they set a plan to intercept the deal. Actively and effectively turned M'Baku into an ally, actively went after Erik in round two. He only really reacted to the kilmonger Revelation Which isn't uncommon on movies, it's actually pretty much standard superhero 101, some type of big reveal about the villain.
What are the things you think Coogler didn't do? Because he did show Tchalla as strong, confident, Larger then life type Character.. who just had his entire world turned upside down in two major ways within about a 10 day time span. How Thor acts in Rag isn't the way to handle that type of chaos to enter the main characters life. There was no feeling bad for him because he didn't seem to be affected much or care.

[Magnusilver]

Hos core Belief is mentioned alot in the movie and really set a tone for what the movie is about. "Who are you" that is said multiple times on the movie to different degree's. He wants to live up to his father's legacy, he wants to be a good king, and like his father said, it's hard for a good Man to be King. His whole story through out the movie is essentially being a good man AND a good King, something his father failed to do.

Also Cap and Ironman are different because they don't have any responsibility whatso ever. Their actions didn't effect an entire nation.

true about "who are you" part. The whole movie is spinning around T'challa struggling to be a good king and he found an answer by the end of the movie. I said I understood his every choice because of that. However, guess how many kings still exist in the real world? It's hard identified with a king for ordinary people tbh. In contrast, Ironman and Captain America has held more grounded characteristics that ordinary people may also share with in real world. I really hope they can make T'challa a more grounded character in next movie

[Punjabi_Hitman]

true about "who are you" part. The whole movie is spinning around T'challa struggling to be a good king and he found an answer by the end of the movie. I said I understood his every choice because of that. However, guess how many kings still exist in the real world? It's hard identified with a king for ordinary people tbh. In contrast, Ironman and Captain America has held more grounded characteristics that ordinary people may also share with in real world. I really hope they can make T'challa a more grounded character in next movie

The funny thing is, Cap was getting treated worse his first two movies than T'Challa. At time of release, The First Avenger was considered among the worst of the movies. No one even cared for Steve Rogers other than that grenade scene. Which T'Challa had a similar scene in his first outing in Civil War and stole the spotlight from both Tony and Cap in Cap's own movie.

Then in Avengers, everyone was shitting on Cap's costume, and still no one was talking about him. Everyone was talking about Hulk and Iron Man and Loki.

Then Winter Soldier hit and all people are talking about how Cap is a badass. What Cooglar needs to do is bring on the same choreographers from Winter Soldier, and use more practical effects rather than relying on CGI for the fight scenes, then everyone will be praising how badass a fighter BP is rather than looking at weightless combat.

Does anyone even remember what Batman did in TDK? All the scenes I remember from that movie are the Joker scenes.

[Jabare]

Both Black panther and Eric are right. The colonizers are the ones who are wrong.

The debate is about methodology tho

Tony has grown tremendously in the 3 Iron Man movies First he became Iron Man and then he saw his purpose. The armor freed him In part 2 the armor is killing him. He feels the weight of the world on his shoulders and tries to handle it alone. In part 3 he ends up discovering that he doesn't need the armor, that without it he's still Iron Man. Also from Avengers Tony was doing clean energy to stop us from using stuff that pollutes the world. Also he built that ridiculous weapon to save peoples lives. Instead of landmines that hurt children. Tony chose to stop selling weapons. Could you imagine if Wal-Mart did that?!?! I digress. I just wanted to show that Tony did grow as a person. He even started just seeing one woman. That's growth. Didn't mean to change the subject. This is T'challa's Appreciation thread.

I don't see it that way as much. I guess I should clarify. I'm referring to positive growth or enlightenment. This is undeniable in Ironman 1 from the character we are first introduced 2. Ironman 2 he's going through a lot because he's dying and everything is reactionary to that until inspiration is thrust in his face. Avengers they reference his clean energy even though its highlighted much more in Ironman 1, after that it might be referenced in a another film, but we don't really see it utilized or this effects on the Marvel world at large.

Ironman 3 he suffers from panic attacks and possible PTSD, which he is seemingly able to overcome quite impressively. Other than that we see him set on this path of revenge until he is brought full circle with the revelation that he birthed the Mandarin. The ending leaves us with the belief that Tony will change and become a new man, but Age of Ultron undercuts this, or really circumvents that as he falls into old habits out of fear. So I don't see Stark finding the same enlightenment he did in the first film.

I think we see him attain that in Civil War. He is confronted with his actions in Sokovia and decides to champion the "Accords." However he ultimately falls victim to the same recklessness he's fighting against as he's consumed by vengeance despite really being in the right for the first half of the film. Peter Parker is most likely Tony's silver lining for character growth these days. Despite putting him in harms way he gives him resources and the chance to grow into the hero we ultimately expect him to be. By that same token Peter is helping Tony grow as a pseudo parent/mentor for the next generation beyond just setting up grants and throwing money at things.


This is why I was saying since Tony Stark T'Challa is marvel's next enlightened hero. Cap despite going through a lot in his last two films has stayed relatively the same and resolute in his ideals and character. Honestly I'd argue the same for Thor. I know Odinson's first film is about his banishment from his home in Asgard because of his hubris, his subsequent trials and repentance on Earth, and his eventual reascension. Still I'd argue at his core Thor is the same and he had that hero within him throughout. Loki just twisted things to get what he wanted. I don't know if Norton Banner and Ruffalo Banner are the same so I'm not counting that.

[Jabare]

The funny thing is, Cap was getting treated worse his first two movies than T'Challa. At time of release, The First Avenger was considered among the worst of the movies. No one even cared for Steve Rogers other than that grenade scene. Which T'Challa had a similar scene in his first outing in Civil War and stole the spotlight from both Tony and Cap in Cap's own movie.

Then in Avengers, everyone was shitting on Cap's costume, and still no one was talking about him. Everyone was talking about Hulk and Iron Man and Loki.

Then Winter Soldier hit and all people are talking about how Cap is a badass. What Cooglar needs to do is bring on the same choreographers from Winter Soldier, and use more practical effects rather than relying on CGI for the fight scenes, then everyone will be praising how badass a fighter BP is rather than looking at weightless combat.

Does anyone even remember what Batman did in TDK? All the scenes I remember from that movie are the Joker scenes.

yeah Cap was a joke till Winter Soldier.

Batman seems most impressive in Batman Begins. Even than you can't really tell as a lot of his actions aren't highlighted on camera

[Ezyo1000]

true about "who are you" part. The whole movie is spinning around T'challa struggling to be a good king and he found an answer by the end of the movie. I said I understood his every choice because of that. However, guess how many kings still exist in the real world? It's hard identified with a king for ordinary people tbh. In contrast, Ironman and Captain America has held more grounded characteristics that ordinary people may also share with in real world. I really hope they can make T'challa a more grounded character in next movie

Thinking about it, hos for atrobf Belief is family. Who are you is the question, surrounded by family. He has strong family values and believes in family. I mean the movie was a family drama as well as a superhero James Bond film. But family is probably the biggest take away. Especially his relationship with Shuri

[ed2962]

well yes and no. I'll say we didn't get to see a lot of Killmongers darker actions we were simply told he committed them. We see him kill his girlfriend and the Dora Milaje and that drives home how cold blooded he is and his by any means necessary approach. Still his message does ring through that Wakanda was sitting in a privilege position and chose to do nothing to aide those in need. Killmonger was not in a privileged position to effect the change he was calling for. Also let's be clear he wasn't talking about humanitarian aide or diplomacy. He was talking about conquering the world and imposing Wakanda governance destroying the current power structures. Something he clearly could not have done on his own no matter what he tried. So his end goal was to take the Wakandan throne and use that as his vehicle for change.

Plus its a movie and a lot of things went his way. Using Klaw as bait and rescuing him than killing him. T'challa and Wakanda accepting the challenge. Him winning the fight and W'kabi having his back.

And the movie does strongly allude to Killmonger being a product of his environment... (to a degree). He carries the loss of his father and his teaching with him to enact his vengeance. His fathers goals and ideals impart live through him, but he perverts that vision or simply makes it his own and does things his father probably wouldn't have done (from the brief bit we saw of him).

The bolded is how imperialists think. I'm not saying that any of this makes Killmonger a bad villain, I think he's a great villain. The best villains are those who have motivations that the audience understands but they are bad guys because of the methods they use to achieve their goals. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the "Killmonger was right" people might not be thinking it through.

[goku200]

I think Erik's motivation is justified doesn't mean his solution is correct. Wakanda is a tiny nation according to the movie after all. Waging war on the world clearly won't bring any benefit at the end. Though to Erik, death is better than bondage, so I don't think he cares about where his radical acts will lead to. But T'challa is born to the throne so that he has to be responsible to the kingdom.

Wakanda is not tiny nation. Erik and T'challa are both right. Colonizers are evil, not Erik.

[goku200]

Erik pulled the. Blade out of his chest that Tchalla stuck in there. He was dying, had he not taken The blade out he still would of died. He basically just sped up the process by removing the blade.

T'challa didn't kill anyone. T'challa knew he could heal him in the end. Erik just didn't want it.

[Jabare]

The bolded is how imperialists think. I'm not saying that any of this makes Killmonger a bad villain, I think he's a great villain. The best villains are those who have motivations that the audience understands but they are bad guys because of the methods they use to achieve their goals. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the "Killmonger was right" people might not be thinking it through.

I agree with you, however I think some people realize full well what Killmonger was advocating for. It is absolutely how imperialists thinks. Killmonger wanted to fight fire with fire. He knows how "colonizers think." Killmonger is in part a result of his environment from the West and Wakanda. As you alluded too he would simply be perpetuating an old Dogma with a different group under the flag of retribution/vengeance.

I'm less advocating about right vs wrong and more interested in the debate this fosters. Thats why a few posts back I brought up the methodologies

[BBeeryan]

I agree with you, however I think some people realize full well what Killmonger was advocating for. It is absolutely how imperialists thinks. Killmonger wanted to fight fire with fire. He knows how "colonizers think." Killmonger is in part a result of his environment from the West and Wakanda. As you alluded too he would simply be perpetuating an old Dogma with a different group under the flag of retribution/vengeance.

I'm less advocating about right vs wrong and more interested in the debate this fosters. Thats why a few posts back I brought up the methodologies

Pretty much this post. The "Killmonger was right" camp probably did think it out. He was right. He was a product of his environment. T'Challa even called him "a monster of our own making." It was the truth and logic of his words and passion of his conviction that propels the "Killmonger was right" angle. Now, that's not to say his methods can't be viewed as evil. They can. They run very counter to the culture that is fostered in America. A culture that is perpetuated through Hollywood and influences the wold over. But we consider this "good."

[KOSLOX]

I agree with you, however I think some people realize full well what Killmonger was advocating for. It is absolutely how imperialists thinks. Killmonger wanted to fight fire with fire. He knows how "colonizers think." Killmonger is in part a result of his environment from the West and Wakanda. As you alluded too he would simply be perpetuating an old Dogma with a different group under the flag of retribution/vengeance.

I'm less advocating about right vs wrong and more interested in the debate this fosters. Thats why a few posts back I brought up the methodologies

Additionally, he's specifically called out for it in the movie and his response is, "But this time we'll be on top!"

[Vic Vega]

yeah Cap was a joke till Winter Soldier.

Batman seems most impressive in Batman Begins. Even than you can't really tell as a lot of his actions aren't highlighted on camera

Of all the many Bat-Films that have been made only The Dark Knight gets cited as a "great" film, a film worthy of non-nerd
consideration/Oscar category film.

That is way more important than who got to body-slam whom.

Arnold Schwarzenegger never got within sniffing range of an Oscar and outside of the Terminator films, his entire body of work is considered
at best disposable fun. At Best.

Stallone on the other hand has for Rocky because that character got to go thru way more stuff than always winning because the script says so.

If you can't feel some sense of empathy for Killmonger the drama of the movie doesn't work, best case, it would have ended up being
something like Ant Man. A fun film, but nothing more.

If taking screen time away from the main character makes for a better movie overall, you do it.

[Ezyo1000]

Wakanda is not tiny nation. Erik and T'challa are both right. Colonizers are evil, not Erik.

T'challa didn't kill anyone. T'challa knew he could heal him in the end. Erik just didn't want it.

Firstly yes Wakanda is a tiny nation, about the size of new jersey. That being said they are the most advanced nation. This has been established already

For the second part. He didn't want to be healed so he chose Death. T'Challa killed him by stabbing him in the chest. Also yes Tchalla did kill people, remember the car chase where he ripped the guy out of the car and threw him out and the car Shuri wasn driving ran him over? That same car then crashed Into **** right after. When he ripped the tire off klaws car the driver died. In the final fight when Tchalla Spears the dragon flyer the dude dies, sane with the first dragon flyer that gets knocked out of the sky when Tchalla comes back.. let's be real here