Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[DigiCom]

I think the issue of "where are the gods" is a larger one spanning multiple seasons…

"Keep reading! It'll all make sense in the end!"

I've heard that many many times about various writers over the last decade or so of my comics reading. (The last time was, indeed, Hickman.)

And pretty much without exception, EVERY TIME, the writer fails to stick the landing. They either ignore the dangling plot completely, or shove in a quick resolution in a panel or two at the last minute (again, Messr. Hickman, with the KotD powers.)

If I think hard about it, I might be able to find a counter-example or two, but those would be the exceptions, not the rule. And if I look at season 1, and how the Tetu storyline was resolved, I'm more than confident in classifying TNC in the larger category.

[MindofShadow]

"Keep reading! It'll all make sense in the end!"

I've heard that many many times about various writers over the last decade or so of my comics reading. (The last time was, indeed, Hickman.)

And pretty much without exception, EVERY TIME, the writer fails to stick the landing. They either ignore the dangling plot completely, or shove in a quick resolution in a panel or two at the last minute (again, Messr. Hickman, with the KotD powers.)

If I think hard about it, I might be able to find a counter-example or two, but those would be the exceptions, not the rule. And if I look at season 1, and how the Tetu storyline was resolved, I'm more than confident in classifying TNC in the larger category.

Yeah... I agree with this.

A lot of writers seem to want to write a long term "epic" storyline and just... can't. Either because they lack the ability or because their books are on the cancellation edge so they have to wrap up quicker than they hoped (ewing).

I actually think Remender was one of the few I can remember off the top of my head who could tell a long term story without dropping plot lines and actually hit the ending. But I could just be fanboying a little bit with him (I really like uncanny xforce, uncanny avengers, and Venom). But uncanny X-force was 30+ issues with a definite beginning and end with everything wrapped up (as far as I can remember) and Uncanny Avengers vol 1 did as well (I think that was only like 24 issues).

(unfortunately Remender wasn't very good with sharing and being editorial controlled ie captain falcon debacle and AXIS. He had to play in his own sad box by himself)

I wanna say Gillen was able to do it with his Journey into Mystery story with Loki but I could be misremembering a ton there. Haven't read it in awhile.

Bendis is the absolute worst at it. Dude will wrap up stuff in a panel that took 4 years to build up lol

[Ezyo1000]

Thought some of y'all might want to read my friends review My Likely Unpopular and Misunderstood Review of BLACK PANTHER (or, The Marvel Cinematic Formula)

Meh, I agree with his point with Zuri and kinda W'kabi (though the deleted scenes would of taken care of those), but the rest naw. Alot of things he complains about are actually good. Like the tired trope of people falling in love after a week at most of knowing each other. He complains about why say that Nakia and T'Challa broke up at all, the answer was obvious if you simply watched the movie, they broke up because they had different responsibilities that pulled them in different directions. But it was clear that they broke up because of that, and not because of something stupid like "he was a jerk in the past" or some type of player.

He complains about T'Challa being invulnerable to redshirts... Uh duh? Who wants to see Tchalla struggle against redshirts in IM 1 he was invulnerable, same with Thor, same with cap with his shield. No one wants to watch goons out hands on him like Coates does.

Finally to saw Erik doesn't come close to Fisk is ridiculous because you can't compare a TV show able to develop a character over several episodes, to a character that has a 2 hour movie to develop in. And Erik didn't win in the end. Nakia was the first one to talk about opening up to the world. T'Challa simply was paying respect to his uncle and cousin by not letting Their apartment complex be destroyed and turned it into the outreach.

It gets silly when people casually forget who was the one who actually proposed the idea in the first place

[DigiCom]

Yeah... I agree with this.

A lot of writers seem to want to write a long term "epic" storyline and just... can't. Either because they lack the ability or because their books are on the cancellation edge so they have to wrap up quicker than they hoped (ewing).

I actually think Remender was one of the few I can remember off the top of my head who could tell a long term story without dropping plot lines and actually hit the ending. But I could just be fanboying a little bit with him (I really like uncanny xforce, uncanny avengers, and Venom). But uncanny X-force was 30+ issues with a definite beginning and end with everything wrapped up (as far as I can remember) and Uncanny Avengers vol 1 did as well (I think that was only like 24 issues).

(unfortunately Remender wasn't very good with sharing and being editorial controlled ie captain falcon debacle and AXIS. He had to play in his own sad box by himself)

I wanna say Gillen was able to do it with his Journey into Mystery story with Loki but I could be misremembering a ton there. Haven't read it in awhile.

Bendis is the absolute worst at it. Dude will wrap up stuff in a panel that took 4 years to build up lol

I don't care for Remender myself (personal thing) but I did like JiM. The difference between them and folks like Hickman, however, is that they didn't pile on the subplots in an attempt to look more epic. If I remember the Kid Loki storyline properly, it was composed of basically standalone arcs with linking elements. It wasn't (for example) "Introduce the Manchester Gods in one issue, and then don't revisit them for two years." The questions and answers were, for the most part, fairly close together.

I will remind the thread that TNC never wrote fiction before starting BP. A neophyte attempting a complex 5-year storyline right out of the gate is either arrogant, clueless, or both.

Hell, I've written stories online for about 30 years, and I wouldn't try that.

[XPac]

"Keep reading! It'll all make sense in the end!"

I've heard that many many times about various writers over the last decade or so of my comics reading. (The last time was, indeed, Hickman.)

And pretty much without exception, EVERY TIME, the writer fails to stick the landing. They either ignore the dangling plot completely, or shove in a quick resolution in a panel or two at the last minute (again, Messr. Hickman, with the KotD powers.)

If I think hard about it, I might be able to find a counter-example or two, but those would be the exceptions, not the rule. And if I look at season 1, and how the Tetu storyline was resolved, I'm more than confident in classifying TNC in the larger category.

The question may not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction .... I just don't agree it's never going to be answered. I just don't agree he'll ask "where are the gods" and leave it at that.

[MindofShadow]

I don't care for Remender myself (personal thing) but I did like JiM. The difference between them and folks like Hickman, however, is that they didn't pile on the subplots in an attempt to look more epic. If I remember the Kid Loki storyline properly, it was composed of basically standalone arcs with linking elements. It wasn't (for example) "Introduce the Manchester Gods in one issue, and then don't revisit them for two years." The questions and answers were, for the most part, fairly close together.

I will remind the thread that TNC never wrote fiction before starting BP. A neophyte attempting a complex 5-year storyline right out of the gate is either arrogant, clueless, or both.

Hell, I've written stories online for about 30 years, and I wouldn't try that.

What is odd about Coates, imo, is that he is dropping MAIN plot points. Not even subplots.

[DigiCom]

The question may not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction .... I just don't agree it's never going to be answered. I just don't agree he'll ask "where are the gods" and leave it at that.

I suppose we'll see. Or you will. I won't be reading.

[DigiCom]

What is odd about Coates, imo, is that he is dropping MAIN plot points. Not even subplots.

Well, the way Coates writes, you are never sure what the main plot IS. In season two, was it Klaw? The Orishas? The Originators? The Adversary? Storm's apotheosis? All of the above?

I'm not sure if they were all main plots, or all subplots (with no main plot at all...)

[XPac]

Well, the way Coates writes, you are never sure what the main plot IS. In season two, was it Klaw? The Orishas? The Originators? The Adversary? Storm's apotheosis? All of the above?

I'm not sure if they were all main plots, or all subplots (with no main plot at all...)

I think Klaw was misdirection. The gods aren't really the main plot of this season... their adsence to some degree brought about the problem, but they don't directly tie into it.

The main plot was stopping the Originators invasion of Wakanda. And that obviously involves the Originators, the Adversary, and Storm. The Originators the the ones invading, the Adversary are the ones behind their invasion, and Storm is the weapon T'Challa chooses to counter it. But the latter 3 are all tied together.

[MindofShadow]

Well, the way Coates writes, you are never sure what the main plot IS. In season two, was it Klaw? The Orishas? The Originators? The Adversary? Storm's apotheosis? All of the above?

I'm not sure if they were all main plots, or all subplots (with no main plot at all...)

I can see that being spun as: Coates writing is so good he always keeps you guessing

[DigiCom]

Yes, the story "obviously" involved a villain that wasn't even hinted at until the penultimate issue.... Such complex storytelling.

[XPac]

Yes, the story "obviously" involved a villain that wasn't even hinted at until the penultimate issue.... Such complex storytelling.

Basically yeah. Similar to how we don't find Doom is the Great Destroyer and the Beyonders are the cause of the multiverse collapsing until the later parts of the story.

You don't always get all your information up front in a story. But in his case it was more about what he was doing than who he was. We knew SOMEONE was behind opening the portals to allow the Originators in invade Wakanda. It just took awhile to find out who.

[DigiCom]

Basically yeah. Similar to how we don't find Doom is the Great Destroyer and the Beyonders are the cause of the multiverse collapsing until the later parts of the story.

You don't always get all your information up front in a story. But in his case it was more about what he was doing than who he was. We knew SOMEONE was behind opening the portals to allow the Originators in invade Wakanda. It just took awhile to find out who.

Yes, and that was crap writing too. Both "twists" remind me of the old "Higher Power" storyline in the WWE, back in the day. And even more of the whole Monarch fiasco at DC.

Here's the thing about mysteries... they only really work if the readers have a fighting chance to solve the puzzle themselves. If you just dump the solution in at the last minute, then it makes all of the clues pointless.

Case in point: Hickman's SECRET WARRIORS.

When that book was being published, I was a big fan. I loved the mystery of how HYDRA had been behind SHIELD all this time, even if I had some problems with how it fit certain storylines. But like here, I was assured that it would all make sense in the end. All the pieces would fit together.

And then, it ended... with a magic LMD that hadn't even been hinted at until an issue before, an unrevealed resurrection that wasn't hinted at ANYWHERE, and a stunning revelation that not only made the entire series pointless, but made Nick Fury personally responsible for the death of his OWN SON:



A crap revelation, that not only soured me on the series, but on Hickman in general. I wasted TWO YEARS trying to figure out where he was going, and in the end, it was all a swerve.

Never again. When my Geek sense tingles, I don't waste time on a book. And with Coates, it's been tingling off the hook.

[XPac]

Yes, and that was crap writing too. Both "twists" remind me of the old "Higher Power" storyline in the WWE, back in the day. And even more of the whole Monarch fiasco at DC.

Here's the thing about mysteries... they only really work if the readers have a fighting chance to solve the puzzle themselves. If you just dump the solution in at the last minute, then it makes all of the clues pointless.

Case in point: Hickman's SECRET WARRIORS.

When that book was being published, I was a big fan. I loved the mystery of how HYDRA had been behind SHIELD all this time, even if I had some problems with how it fit certain storylines. But like here, I was assured that it would all make sense in the end. All the pieces would fit together.

And then, it ended... with a magic LMD that hadn't even been hinted at until an issue before, an unrevealed resurrection that wasn't hinted at ANYWHERE, and a stunning revelation that not only made the entire series pointless, but made Nick Fury personally responsible for the death of his OWN SON:



A crap revelation, that not only soured me on the series, but on Hickman in general. I wasted TWO YEARS trying to figure out where he was going, and in the end, it was all a swerve.

Never again. When my Geek sense tingles, I don't waste time on a book. And with Coates, it's been tingling off the hook.

For what it's worth, a few people over on the X boards actually DID figure out it was the Adversary before the reveal.

Honestly I didnt' put much time into thinking about it, because I was assuming it would be some brand new god or whatever behind it all. It didn't occur to me that it was already an existing character.

[MindofShadow]

Yes, and that was crap writing too. Both "twists" remind me of the old "Higher Power" storyline in the WWE, back in the day. And even more of the whole Monarch fiasco at DC.

Here's the thing about mysteries... they only really work if the readers have a fighting chance to solve the puzzle themselves. If you just dump the solution in at the last minute, then it makes all of the clues pointless.

Case in point: Hickman's SECRET WARRIORS.

When that book was being published, I was a big fan. I loved the mystery of how HYDRA had been behind SHIELD all this time, even if I had some problems with how it fit certain storylines. But like here, I was assured that it would all make sense in the end. All the pieces would fit together.

And then, it ended... with a magic LMD that hadn't even been hinted at until an issue before, an unrevealed resurrection that wasn't hinted at ANYWHERE, and a stunning revelation that not only made the entire series pointless, but made Nick Fury personally responsible for the death of his OWN SON:

A crap revelation, that not only soured me on the series, but on Hickman in general. I wasted TWO YEARS trying to figure out where he was going, and in the end, it was all a swerve.

Never again. When my Geek sense tingles, I don't waste time on a book. And with Coates, it's been tingling off the hook.

Agreed.

People did guess Doom was the great destroyer the second the great destroyer was mentioned. Just because that sounds like Doom. And it was Hickman, who loves the dude. Even so much so that people asked Hickman on twitter or formspring (can't remember which) and he lied and said it wasn't Doom lol.