Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[SKJoker]

Huh. Seems like we're not the only ones looking into the "mantle" line: http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/b...udios-tchalla/

But at least the FB post I found this on had the few people commenting against it. Which is positive.

[The Cool Thatguy]

There was no reason to sacrifice herself for her brother. T'Challa gained nothing from her death, because he clearly escaped before Proxima got to them. She could have just as easily teleported away too.

I get it was a way for him to get the mantle back... I just don't agree Shuri essentially killing herself to do it (or T'Challa allowing it to happen) did anyone any favors.

Yeah, basically.

The biggest issue with Hickman, more than anything, is that he cared more about dramatic scenes than internal logic.

At the start, how did Atlantis killing a Wakandian delegation, at the God damn UN, not turn the world against them?

[Ezyo1000]

I agree but you guys need to let go of that one page of "rape camps!'" that was like in the second issue of the first book and never mentioned again for all your eternal critiques about Coates.

Exactly, it was Never mentioned again in the same capacity. It was used as a pot shot at Tchalla and then made worse when Shuri comes back and was basically like "you should of left then women to get raped and die so long as Wakanda lives on". So from rape camps to forced gender inequality, and dysfunction between neb and women, to S2 making Wakanda an analog for Colombus and now S3 kicking off with slavery.. I mean shit can we get a Tchalla and Wakanda that's NOT filled with stereotypical tropes?

[XPac]

I didn't read that scene as just suicide. Shuri didn't want to flee a fight that her people lost. She was the queen and she really couldn't and shouldn't have left while the people under her rule died. So she stayed and fought like she was supposed to (yes, knowing it would be an uphil fight) and that is what I find entertaining and interesting about Shuri. She is much more fierce than T'challa. He sees things on the grand scale which is nice but there is also something nice about shuri not having that same thought process.

back to the movie point. That Shuri didn't have to be a 16 year old genius responsible for the advancements of Wakandan (and really think about how stupid that is being that age...was she the smartest wakanda had at age 6? 9? 11?..and if so then Wakanda has only been that advanced for how long?)

anyway.....Shuri's ferocity and loyalty would have been plenty.

I disagree. She could and should have left. She can't do anything for the people who died... but she can try and still help her people who are still alive. But she can't help the ones left if she's dead. And she can't help T'Challa if she's dead. Being dead serves no purpose. As long as she still had 2000 subjects left, she still had a job to do. But she quit and left it to T'Challa.

I hate to diss Shuri this way, because I'm a fan... but the gods honest truth is this scene shows why T'Challa should sit on the bit throne. He didn't quit. He stuck around and did what needed to be done. And that's what Wakanda, and the rest of the multiverse for that matter needed.

[Ezyo1000]

back to the movie point. That Shuri didn't have to be a 16 year old genius responsible for the advancements of Wakandan (and really think about how stupid that is being that age...was she the smartest wakanda had at age 6? 9? 11?..and if so then Wakanda has only been that advanced for how long?)

anyway.....Shuri's ferocity and loyalty would have been plenty.

Wakanda had been advanced far before Shuri was even Born. This was established literally at the beginning of the movie..

[Ezyo1000]

Huh. Seems like we're not the only ones looking into the "mantle" line: http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/b...udios-tchalla/

But at least the FB post I found this on had the few people commenting against it. Which is positive.

Thing is, they aren't going to replace Tchalla anytime soon or at all, just because they say that (which book my Hero has been replaced and they definitely won't replace their highest grossing hero) doesn't mean anything at all , us the movie already secured Tchalla ad the last BP unless something changes.

[robreedwrites]

Wakanda had been advanced far before Shuri was even Born. This was established literally at the beginning of the movie..

Yep. The one major advancement she see.ed to make for their society as a whole was the creation of the sonic stabilizers which allowed them to safely transport raw vibranium at faster speeds. Most of her other tech seemed based around making sure her brother was safe.

Also, with regards to the mantle talk, in a hypothetical situation where Shuri becomes BP - she'd probably end up like Priest's Black Panther in that she will have had her childhood stripped from her, would probably be paranoid and ultra protective, and of course she's a super genius. Just something I was thinking about while at work. To me she can't go what she's been through and stay funny/quippy Shuri unless her brother returns and restores order.

[XPac]

Yep. The one major advancement she see.ed to make for their society as a whole was the creation of the sonic stabilizers which allowed them to safely transport raw vibranium at faster speeds. Most of her other tech seemed based around making sure her brother was safe.

Also, with regards to the mantle talk, in a hypothetical situation where Shuri becomes BP - she'd probably end up like Priest's Black Panther in that she will have had her childhood stripped from her, would probably be paranoid and ultra protective, and of course she's a super genius. Just something I was thinking about while at work. To me she can't go what she's been through and stay funny/quippy Shuri unless her brother returns and restores order.

It's tough to be funny and quippy when your family members are dropping like flies. First her dad, then we got what we got in Infinity War. Not that I think that will stick for very long... but it's something she'll need to deal with in the short term ASSUMING she's still around.

Also sort of makes me wonder if we wouldn't have gotten a funnier quippy Shuri in the comics if her father wasn't murdered when she was so young. Really both T'Challa and her managed to avoid that childhood trauma... which in a lot of ways potentially justifies them being different characters in the movies. Granted they lost their dad later, but it's a different thing for an adult to deal with it than a small child. See Killmonger.

[Jabare]

Shuri does catch blame for two things:

Attacking atlantis. She didnt have to. Namor sent the BO tbere due to wakanda obliterating tgem. Tchalla told her not too.. but at tge same time admitted to namor he would have ignored him too.

And giving up and killing herself at the end

First off Shuri attacking Atlantis was not a mistake. Namor flooded Wakanda and killed hundreds if not thousands of Wakanda. They were at War.

The Illuminati for some reason kept Hickman's stupid plot/premiss to themselves. Plus everything failed in the end and Doom had to save the day.....in his own way.

M'Baku is that dude!

[Realdealholy]

Shuri does catch blame for two things:

Attacking atlantis. She didnt have to. Namor sent the BO tbere due to wakanda obliterating tgem. Tchalla told her not too.. but at tge same time admitted to namor he would have ignored him too.

And giving up and killing herself at the end

Shuri had no reason not to attack Atlantis. She wasn’t told about the Incursions. T’Challa simply telling her not to do it isn’t enough, especially when the Wakandan government and the Wakandan people demanded and expected an attack.

Shuri deciding not to attack Atlantis without an incredible reason not to (the incursions qualifies as said “incredible reason”) would’ve ended her reign, as the Wakandan people would’ve turned on her. Even T’Challa (when talking to Reed prior to the war council meeting) said that Namor’s offer could destabilize Wakanda and that he didn’t trust Namor.

Also, she had no knowledge of the gems being gathered in Wakanda or being used recently.

Attacking Atlantis when she did was the right call to make, based on the intel she was provided.

[XPac]

Shuri had no reason not to attack Atlantis. She wasn’t told about the Incursions. T’Challa simply telling her not to do it isn’t enough, especially when the Wakandan government and the Wakandan people demanded and expected an attack.

Shuri deciding not to attack Atlantis without an incredible reason not to (the incursions qualifies as said “incredible reason”) would’ve ended her reign, as the Wakandan people would’ve turned on her. Even T’Challa (when talking to Reed prior to the war council meeting) said that Namor’s offer could destabilize Wakanda and that he didn’t trust Namor.

Also, she had no knowledge of the gems being gathered in Wakanda or being used recently.

Attacking Atlantis when she did was the right call to make, based on the intel she was provided.

While I agree that Shuri had every reason to attack Atlantis, I don't agree she had no reason NOT to attack it.

There are obvious downsides to choosing war over accepting a peaceful solution. If both sides continue to try and kill each other, you potentially end up with both sides being destroyed (which is essentially what happened). And that's a far worse end result than ending the conflict with a peace treaty where both sides were relatively intact.

Shuri's actions were entirely understandable and I don't fault her for what she did ... but I'd be hard pressed to accept any arguments that it led to a better end result. So I can't agree it was the right call.

[neohuey89]

While I agree that Shuri had every reason to attack Atlantis, I don't agree she had no reason NOT to attack it.

There are obvious downsides to choosing war over accepting a peaceful solution. If both sides continue to try and kill each other, you potentially end up with both sides being destroyed (which is essentially what happened). And that's a far worse end result than ending the conflict with a peace treaty where both sides were relatively intact.

Shuri's actions were entirely understandable and I don't fault her for what she did ... but I'd be hard pressed to accept any arguments that it led to a better end result. So I can't agree it was the right call.

Outside if the threat of incursions there's no way that Wakanda would not have attacked Atlantis. They were continually killing their people. Continually killing non combatants. At that point the only course of action was war.

[Realdealholy]

While I agree that Shuri had every reason to attack Atlantis, I don't agree she had no reason NOT to attack it.

There are obvious downsides to choosing war over accepting a peaceful solution. If both sides continue to try and kill each other, you potentially end up with both sides being destroyed (which is essentially what happened). And that's a far worse end result than ending the conflict with a peace treaty where both sides were relatively intact.

Shuri's actions were entirely understandable and I don't fault her for what she did ... but I'd be hard pressed to accept any arguments that it led to a better end result. So I can't agree it was the right call.

Wakanda got destroyed because Thanos unexpectedly showed up, not because of what Atlantis itself did. There was no way to foresee that.

Furthermore, violence was inevitable regardless of what Shuri decided. If she decided not to go to war without an incredible reason, she would’ve faced an insurrection back home. There were already some Wakandans planning to topple her by conspiring with Namor. Her saying “no war” would’ve given them the opening they needed.

Namor’s peace offer was ultimately a poison pill, and he knew that. His offer didn’t include major concessions, or at the least an apology. Simply an end of hostilities. After killing hundreds if not thousands of innocent Wakandans, such an offer was simply not enough and was quite arrogant of him, tbh. Even more arrogant was his belief that T’Challa would’ve been able to sway Shuri to say “no war” considering the seriousness of the situation. It’s as if he felt Shuri was something akin to T’Challa’s political puppet.

Shuri deciding to attack Atlantis was the right call to make, not just morally but politically and pragmatically. It bears repeating: her intel didn’t factor in the incursions because she wasn’t told about them. Nor did it not factor Thanos or the infinity gems as she had no idea he would show up or that the gems were ever in Wakanda.

Within those circumstances, she practically had to attack Atlantis, even if she didn’t want to (which she did).

[MindofShadow]

I agree but you guys need to let go of that one page of "rape camps!'" that was like in the second issue of the first book and never mentioned again for all your eternal critiques about Coates.

Well, even not taking into account that the rape camps set the whole plot in motion (Dora rebellion) and that WoW ended with rape camps...

This is Black Panther, Coates, #12.

Uh, Shuri sacrificing herself for her brother was a way for the writers to hand T'challa back the mantle of king. And in a very meaningful way.

It's not some shot at of character.

Meaningfully off panel. A Hickman and Coates special.

There was no reason to sacrifice herself for her brother. T'Challa gained nothing from her death, because he clearly escaped before Proxima got to them. She could have just as easily teleported away too.

I get it was a way for him to get the mantle back... I just don't agree Shuri essentially killing herself to do it (or T'Challa allowing it to happen) did anyone any favors.

The way it was written, it came off as giving up. It didn't come off as heroic. It came off as she failed, was depressed, and was done.

It was a poorly written scene. There are a million ways they could have killed her off and passed the mantle with Shuri doing something meaningful. Hell, They could have just written the scene as, "there isn't time for both of us to get out of here."

But, Hickman needed the Black Panther mythos to create real human drama.

Huh. Seems like we're not the only ones looking into the "mantle" line: http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/b...udios-tchalla/

But at least the FB post I found this on had the few people commenting against it. Which is positive.

Writers: hey, we want to kill off T'challa or pass the BP mantle off.

Suits: ok, what dude will replace him?

Writers: Shuri

Suits: ok, who is going to sell action figures and boys clothing then? Black Panther was our most popular line of the season.

Writers: Shuri! Its 2020!

Suits: get the fuck out of my office.

Yeah, basically.

The biggest issue with Hickman, more than anything, is that he cared more about dramatic scenes than internal logic.

At the start, how did Atlantis killing a Wakandian delegation, at the God damn UN, not turn the world against them?

Wakanda going to war with any other country would put the world in panic. One of their main things is that they only defend. They are never the aggressors. They don't cross into foreign territory. It was a (dumb) plot point of Doom War.

Wakanda going to war with Atlantis would be even more nuts.

Shuri had no reason not to attack Atlantis. She wasn’t told about the Incursions. T’Challa simply telling her not to do it isn’t enough, especially when the Wakandan government and the Wakandan people demanded and expected an attack.

Shuri deciding not to attack Atlantis without an incredible reason not to (the incursions qualifies as said “incredible reason”) would’ve ended her reign, as the Wakandan people would’ve turned on her. Even T’Challa (when talking to Reed prior to the war council meeting) said that Namor’s offer could destabilize Wakanda and that he didn’t trust Namor.

Also, she had no knowledge of the gems being gathered in Wakanda or being used recently.

Attacking Atlantis when she did was the right call to make, based on the intel she was provided.

I wasn't saying it wasn't the right call per say. I was saying she actually had a choice. And when given the opportunity to make a choice, you are gonna catch the praise or blame.

She could have listened to T'challa, accepted the peace offering, swallowed her pride a bit, dealt with the internal strife, and moved on. SHe could have used the T'challa way of dealing with government strife... tell them to F off and dissolve the council lol.

Or she could have obliterated Atlantis and dealt with those consequences. Hell, T'challa said to Namor's face that he would have rejected the offering. Which should have been minor ish (you are pissing off a very powerful Namor for instance with powerful super hero and super villain friends) but, unknowing to shuri and even T'challa... they didn't know the BO were coming and didn't know Namor would turn into a little bitch. Nobody could have foresaw Namor, on his knees, surrendering, and turning traitor. That like... isn't Namor at all lol.

[Realdealholy]

I wasn't saying it wasn't the right call per say. I was saying she actually had a choice. And when given the opportunity to make a choice, you are gonna catch the praise or blame.

She could have listened to T'challa, accepted the peace offering, swallowed her pride a bit, dealt with the internal strife, and moved on. SHe could have used the T'challa way of dealing with government strife... tell them to F off and dissolve the council lol.

The “T’Challa way” in this specific situation would’ve resulted in a coup, with Shuri either kicked out or killed. On top of that it would’ve ripped the nation apart. Just because she was queen doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take into account how her government and her constituents/subjects felt at the time. Practically everyone in Wakanda was for war.

Namor literally killed thousands of innocent of Wakandans in cold blood. That’s not something you just let go of like that, unless you have a hell of a reason to do so. Said reason was never brought to her attention.

The Doras turned on T’Challa because of the Namor issue. The HZ sides with Shuri because of the Namor issue. The Wakandan generals sided with Shuri because of the Namor issue (and were outright hostile to T’Challa saying they shouldn’t attack). Who’s to say that the Doras, the HZ, the military and other elements of the government wouldn’t turn on Shuri if she said “no war” for no clear reason? Coups in the real world have happen for far less than that.