Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[MindofShadow]

The “T’Challa way” in this specific situation would’ve resulted in a coup, with Shuri either kicked out or killed. On top of that it would rip the nation apart. Just because she was queen doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take into account how her government and her constituents/subjects felt at the time. Practically everyone in Wakanda was for war.

Namor literally killed thousands of innocent of Wakandans in cold blood. That’s not something you just let go of like that, unless you have a hell of a reason to do so. Said reason was never brought to her attention.

The Dora’s turned on T’Challa because of the Namor issue. The HZ sides with Shuri because of the Namor issue. The Wakandan generals sided with Shuri because of the Namor issue (and were outright hostile to T’Challa saying they shouldn’t attack). Who’s to say that the Doras, the HZ, the military and other elements of the government wouldn’t turn on Shuri if she said “no war” for no clear reason? Coups in the real world have happen for far less than that.

One alternative may have been to fully blame Namor instead of Atlantis. Basically "Osama Bin Laden" him... calling him a terrorist and saying any country of group that works with him is now an enemy of Wakanda and at war with us.

Of course, then T'challa would have been sitting there like:




Like I said, I think she was right, but I think she can still be blamed. Just the nature of the crown.

[Realdealholy]

One alternative may have been to fully blame Namor instead of Atlantis. Basically "Osama Bin Laden" him... calling him a terrorist and saying any country of group that works with him is now an enemy of Wakanda and at war with us.

Of course, then T'challa would have been sitting there like:

Namor isn’t a terrorist in the Bin Laden sense. He is a head of state. He represents Atlantis.

In addition, Atlantean forces were with Namor attacking Wakanda as well (on panel too). It wasn’t just Namor. It was “Atlantis” attacking Wakanda. A nation’s forces attacking another nation. That’s an act of war.

Like I said, I think she was right, but I think she can still be blamed. Just the nature of the crown.

I’m a bit confused. In this particular instance, blame her for what?

Shuri did what the Wakandan people wanted her to do and what was expected of her to do under the circumstances: strike back. She did her job.

I could see if she knew about the incursions or the presence of the gems in Wakanda, but she had no knowledge either of those. And as mentioned earlier, Thanos showing was a completely unexpected development.

There are things one can criticize Shuri for but her deciding to attack Atlantis based on the intel given to her isn’t one of them, imho.

[blacksonic]

Huh. Seems like we're not the only ones looking into the "mantle" line: http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/b...udios-tchalla/

But at least the FB post I found this on had the few people commenting against it. Which is positive.

Disney knows people love Shuri. Her becoming the next Black Panther would no be a big deal to them.

[XPac]

Outside if the threat of incursions there's no way that Wakanda would not have attacked Atlantis. They were continually killing their people. Continually killing non combatants. At that point the only course of action was war.

Yeah, they were at war and Atlantis were killing their people. But again Namor offered a peace treaty with favorable terms... I think we can assume an aspect of those favorable terms is that both sides not kill each other.

It wasn't the ONLY course. The point of the peace treaty was to prevent a war so that T'Challa and Namor can deal with more important matters.

[Realdealholy]

Yeah, they were at war and Atlantis were killing their people. But again Namor offered a peace treaty with favorable terms... I think we can assume an aspect of those favorable terms is that both sides not kill each other.

It wasn't the ONLY course. The point of the peace treaty was to prevent a war so that T'Challa and Namor can deal with more important matters.

“Favorable terms” isn’t enough. Namor attacked a Wakandan city, killing hundreds if not thousands. He needed much more in his offer than just an end to hostilies and something vague like favorable terms.

Real-world conflicts and wars started for far less than what Namor did. The onus was on Namor to beef up his offer if he really didn’t want war. Instead he tried to get his cake and eat it to. His strategy backfired.

[XPac]

The “T’Challa way” in this specific situation would’ve resulted in a coup, with Shuri either kicked out or killed. On top of that it would’ve ripped the nation apart. Just because she was queen doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take into account how her government and her constituents/subjects felt at the time. Practically everyone in Wakanda was for war.

Namor literally killed thousands of innocent of Wakandans in cold blood. That’s not something you just let go of like that, unless you have a hell of a reason to do so. Said reason was never brought to her attention.

The Doras turned on T’Challa because of the Namor issue. The HZ sides with Shuri because of the Namor issue. The Wakandan generals sided with Shuri because of the Namor issue (and were outright hostile to T’Challa saying they shouldn’t attack). Who’s to say that the Doras, the HZ, the military and other elements of the government wouldn’t turn on Shuri if she said “no war” for no clear reason? Coups in the real world have happen for far less than that.

There certainly might have been consequences to accepting the peace treaty... and obviously we know for a fact that there were consequences for NOT taking it. It's a matter of weighing the pro's and con's of a war vs a potential coup.

Which again is why I don't think Shuri can really be faulted for going either way. Which is my point. I think invading was entirely understandable... but I just don't agree there was no reason to avoid the war and accept the treaty. It's simply a matter of weighting whether the consequences of a potential coup are greater than the consequences of a war. And in this case, the later IMO were more severe. I don't blame Shuri for not fully understanding the consequences of the decision she made... but nonetheless those consequences did happen and that ultimately still falls on her because she was in charge and that's just how it works.

As it stands for her it probably turned out for the best anyways, in a weird sort of way. She doesn't get any backlash for not invading Atlantis. And she really gets no backlash for the Thanos invasions either since she died and T'Challa ended up stuck with that too. The good timing of her death allowed her to not have to deal with any of the direct or indirect consequences of what happened.

[XPac]

“Favorable terms” isn’t enough. Namor attacked a Wakandan city, killing hundreds if not thousands. He needed much more in his offer than just an end to hostilies and something vague like favorable terms.

Real-world conflicts and wars started for far less than what Namor did. The onus was on Namor to beef up his offer if he really didn’t want war. Instead he tried to get his cake and eat it to. His strategy backfired.

Presumably the terms were only vague to the readers. We can't say exactly how much he needed to beef up the offer if we don't even know what he offered. It was a good enough offer for T'CHalla himself to support it to Shuri. So I don't think it was entirely unreasonable, whatever it was.

But the biggest gain of not going to war is of course not going to war. Both sides benefit from not doing that. And we know the end result of that war was both nations being completely destroyed. Obviously Shuri had no way of knowing that would happen... but in a general sense that's always a possibility when you opt for war over peace. That's the risk you take.

[Realdealholy]

Presumably the terms were only vague to the readers. We can't say exactly how much he needed to beef up the offer if we don't even know what he offered. It was a good enough offer for T'CHalla himself to support it to Shuri. So I don't think it was entirely unreasonable, whatever it was.

But the biggest gain of not going to war is of course not going to war. Both sides benefit from not doing that. And we know the end result of that war was both nations being completely destroyed. Obviously Shuri had no way of knowing that would happen... but in a general sense that's always a possibility when you opt for war over peace. That's the risk you take.

Namor benefited from not going to war, not the Wakandans.

He’s the one that attacked. He’s the one that destroyed large amounts of property. He’s the one that killed many innocents Wakandans.

If that peace offer was accepted, it was Wakanda that would go through a coup/civil war. Atlantis would’ve been just fine and Namor wouldn’t have to suffer any consequences.

It was a one-sided deal as far as the Wakandans were concerned. Hence why Shuri rejected it.

[XPac]

Namor benefited from not going to war, not the Wakandans.

He’s the one that attacked. He’s the one that destroyed large amounts of property. He’s the one that killed many innocents Wakandans.

If that peace offer was accepted, it was Wakanda that would go through a coup/civil war. Atlantis would’ve been just fine and Namor wouldn’t have to suffer any consequences.

It was a one-sided deal as far as the Wakandans were concerned. Hence why Shuri rejected it.

Everyone would have benefited from not going to war, because both nations ended up being completely destroyed because of it.

Again, that's not to say that there wouldn't be consequences to NOT going to war as well. But the cosequences to going to war were pretty bad.

[Realdealholy]

Everyone would have benefited from not going to war, because both nations ended up being completely destroyed because of it.

Again, that's not to say that there wouldn't be consequences to NOT going to war as well. But the cosequences to going to war were pretty bad.

So Wakanda should’ve went through a civil war/coup in the middle of Thanos invading earth? That would’ve been a death sentence. That first wave with Black Dwarf could’ve ended them in that case.

Meanwhile, Atlantis would’ve been in full-military readiness when confronting Proxima Midnight. Basically how Wakanda was when confronted Black Dwarf the first time in the Hickman run, which allowed it to survive for as long as it did.

In said “no war” scenario, Wakanda suffers greatly from within and falls even faster.

Attacking Atlantis was the moral, political, and pragmatic move to make.

[Ezyo1000]

I agree with Realdealholy. Nmor nation attack's Wakanda outright, arguably the most powerful nation on earth because he Wanted to, and then continues hostility. Wakanda basically had to go to War. Because if they are attacked, and then accept a peace treaty from the aggressors, especially given Wakandas unconquered for 10k years and not a place to F with, it sends a message to other nations that Wakanda may not be as unreachable as they originally thought and they may be more vulnerable to exploitation.

Given what I was going on, I Doubt of Tchalla was King he would of let Atlantis go. It would be like when the skrulls invaded Wakanda, killing it's people then offering peace? Most places wouldn't accept that unless they were on terrible shape in which case the aggressors likely wouldn't be offering peace anyways.

Shuri didn't know about the incursions (which is stupid and makes no sense given 3 of Wakandas greatest young minds were killed and no one asks why) or Thanos so she had made the best choice. Had she accepted there would of been a coup and in that coup other nations could of used that as an in. T'Challa had the situation been reversed would of done the same. He almost sent the world into WW3 over an alien girl.. I doubt he would let Wakandans being killed slide.

Ultimately it was Namor being arrogant, you could tell in the scene when he tells T'Challa that he offered peace. He was being smug and patting himself on the back, thinking he was clever and getting away with mass murder and flexing Atlantis might and mocking Tchalla, saying that Atlantis would win the war had they actually fought. Tried to have his cake and eat it too

[XPac]

So Wakanda should’ve went through a civil war/coup in the middle of Thanos invading earth? That would’ve been a death sentence. That first wave with Black Dwarf could’ve ended them in that case.

Meanwhile, Atlantis would’ve been in full-military readiness when confronting Proxima Midnight. Basically how Wakanda was when confronted Black Dwarf the first time in the Hickman run, which allowed it to survive for as long as it did.

In said “no war” scenario, Wakanda suffers greatly from within and falls even faster.

Attacking Atlantis was the moral, political, and pragmatic move to make.

Thanks people were just looking for the gems. The intent at least initially wasn't to end Wakanda or anyone else. New York and the X-Men mansion were attacked, but the damage was pretty minimal.

Of course it was heavier later as things escalated.

Again, point being though that the end result of going to war was Wakanda being completely destroyed. Would it have been completely destroyed if they accepted the leave treaty. Maybe.If that's the case it probably doesn't matter what Shuri did because they were pretty screwed either way.

[XPac]

I agree with Realdealholy. Nmor nation attack's Wakanda outright, arguably the most powerful nation on earth because he Wanted to, and then continues hostility. Wakanda basically had to go to War. Because if they are attacked, and then accept a peace treaty from the aggressors, especially given Wakandas unconquered for 10k years and not a place to F with, it sends a message to other nations that Wakanda may not be as unreachable as they originally thought and they may be more vulnerable to exploitation.

Given what I was going on, I Doubt of Tchalla was King he would of let Atlantis go. It would be like when the skrulls invaded Wakanda, killing it's people then offering peace? Most places wouldn't accept that unless they were on terrible shape in which case the aggressors likely wouldn't be offering peace anyways.

Shuri didn't know about the incursions (which is stupid and makes no sense given 3 of Wakandas greatest young minds were killed and no one asks why) or Thanos so she had made the best choice. Had she accepted there would of been a coup and in that coup other nations could of used that as an in. T'Challa had the situation been reversed would of done the same. He almost sent the world into WW3 over an alien girl.. I doubt he would let Wakandans being killed slide.

Ultimately it was Namor being arrogant, you could tell in the scene when he tells T'Challa that he offered peace. He was being smug and patting himself on the back, thinking he was clever and getting away with mass murder and flexing Atlantis might and mocking Tchalla, saying that Atlantis would win the war had they actually fought. Tried to have his cake and eat it too

T'Challa does in fact let Atlantis off the hook though.

Despite what he said to Namor he did end up supporting the leave treaty. And after Secret Wars when T'Challa is king hostilities with Atlantis have ceased even though Namor had Wakanda attacked 2 more times after Acc.

Course after Secret Wars T'Challa does have to deal with a coup, so perhaps those 2 things are related.

[Jabare]

Atlantis didn't offer favorable terms to Wakanda. The only favorable terms would be if Namor offered his head in surrender

[Realdealholy]

Preview for Black Panther #1 is out.

https://www.avclub.com/black-panther...mpression=true