1. #75106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    My dream is to see Kiber the Cruel return in some fashion.
    You and me both.

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    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    thats why you come up with new villains. Wakanda really needs to face off against organizations and societies. Not just individuals, but foes worthy of the most technologically advance nations and it's warrior king.




    Eclipso is back?

    Deacon Frost has been dead. He was just revived by Mephisto to terrorize Falcon in a recent pretty lame story. He ends up dining at the end. Yeah some threats come back like Dracula is always dieting and getting resurrected, but at least Blade has an endless war to fight against new vampires or mystical threats.



    No one takes the Green Lanterns seriously. The Guardians are a joke. The GLC gets destroyed or is in shambles every other week. However, GLC actually comes up with a ton of new villains and threats. I don't know if anyones been following those issues but the Green Lanterns constantly face off against new threats. I don't particularly care for the Green Lantern Corps but I give them credit in that regard.

    I don't consider Mongul a rogue. Sinestro and some of the others you've mentioned sure. The premiss of the GLC is vastly different they have all of space to play around in (not that thats helped the book).





    I'm not saying T'Challa needs to take people out. Obviously it depends on the transgression, but stories like AvX or DoomWar. Those are scenarios where villains need to die. All comics do this but its silly there are so many stories writers concoct where the villain is given mercy in the end even though it makes no damn sense.


    15 Villains That Heroes Should Not Have Spared
    https://screenrant.com/villains-that...t-have-spared/
    You can say the same thing about villains though. Why don't they kill the hero when they are able to sucessfull capture them?

    Comics and fiction in general aren't always realistic in this regard, but that's simply how it works. It's not practical to constantly kill off viable characters. Characters like Killmomger and M'Baku are actually good characters. Overtime, a well made villain can be a strong selling point for a franchise. Killing them off is a waste.

    Is it believable that more villains arent killed off? Not entirely. But comic fans by this point have suspended their belief on the matter to the degree that it's pretty much expected.

  3. #75108
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You can say the same thing about villains though. Why don't they kill the hero when they are able to sucessfull capture them?

    Comics and fiction in general aren't always realistic in this regard, but that's simply how it works. It's not practical to constantly kill off viable characters. Characters like Killmomger and M'Baku are actually good characters. Overtime, a well made villain can be a strong selling point for a franchise. Killing them off is a waste.

    Is it believable that more villains arent killed off? Not entirely. But comic fans by this point have suspended their belief on the matter to the degree that it's pretty much expected.
    I believe a truly well written narrative (comic, cartoon, tv show, movie or otherwise) will answer those questions. There are situations where heroes and villains don't off one another but I shouldn't have to just roll my eyes and go "Oh comics."

    M'Baku might be an antagonist but he's not an outright villain. The way he was handled in Avengers EMH he was an outright villain.

    besides now that we got MCU M'Baku we golden


    I'm okay with Killmonger too. I just don't need him popping up every weekend like the Joker. Killmonger is a quality villain, so is Klaw the only problem with Klaw is he gets clowned by other heroes and writers.

    BP has a good track record with his villains and his own nice Rogues gallery. I don't want BP to turn into Batman or Spider-Man let him be his own man, thats what's made him so successful so far.


    Moses Magnum, Morlun, Kraven etc. He's got good villains and enough material to retell those stories in other mediums.


    I don't want BP to go up against the same villain 20 times thats a bad look. 3 or 4 times is fine, but when your Batman and you're going up against the Joker for the 289th times and he's killed a couple thousand or so people......he's winning. Seriously go read Batman #48 if you haven't already I don't want this for BP. Iv'e always considered BP the common sense hero and outside of Doom War he usually lives up to the name.
    The J-man

  4. #75109
    Extraordinary Member Mike_Murdock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    My dream is to see Kiber the Cruel return in some fashion.
    I didn't like how they ended that story, but there's potential for more.
    Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother

    I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons

    Interested in reading Daredevil? Not sure what to read next? Why not check out the Daredevil Book Club for some ideas?

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    Incredible Member Skedatz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    thats why you come up with new villains. Wakanda really needs to face off against organizations and societies. Not just individuals, but foes worthy of the most technologically advance nations and it's warrior king.




    Eclipso is back?

    Deacon Frost has been dead. He was just revived by Mephisto to terrorize Falcon in a recent pretty lame story. He ends up dining at the end. Yeah some threats come back like Dracula is always dieting and getting resurrected, but at least Blade has an endless war to fight against new vampires or mystical threats.



    No one takes the Green Lanterns seriously. The Guardians are a joke. The GLC gets destroyed or is in shambles every other week. However, GLC actually comes up with a ton of new villains and threats. I don't know if anyones been following those issues but the Green Lanterns constantly face off against new threats. I don't particularly care for the Green Lantern Corps but I give them credit in that regard.

    I don't consider Mongul a rogue. Sinestro and some of the others you've mentioned sure. The premiss of the GLC is vastly different they have all of space to play around in (not that thats helped the book).





    I'm not saying T'Challa needs to take people out. Obviously it depends on the transgression, but stories like AvX or DoomWar. Those are scenarios where villains need to die. All comics do this but its silly there are so many stories writers concoct where the villain is given mercy in the end even though it makes no damn sense.


    15 Villains That Heroes Should Not Have Spared
    https://screenrant.com/villains-that...t-have-spared/
    Came back during Rebirth in a pretty crappy story. But Eclipso is locked back in the diamond awaiting a new host.

    Deacon Frost came back I believe twice including the Mephisto bit. Once as a doppelganger who was said to be an imperfect magical simulacrum, then again in the mid-2000's and was killed again. So one fake/one real.

  6. #75111
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I believe a truly well written narrative (comic, cartoon, tv show, movie or otherwise) will answer those questions. There are situations where heroes and villains don't off one another but I shouldn't have to just roll my eyes and go "Oh comics."

    M'Baku might be an antagonist but he's not an outright villain. The way he was handled in Avengers EMH he was an outright villain.

    besides now that we got MCU M'Baku we golden


    I'm okay with Killmonger too. I just don't need him popping up every weekend like the Joker. Killmonger is a quality villain, so is Klaw the only problem with Klaw is he gets clowned by other heroes and writers.

    BP has a good track record with his villains and his own nice Rogues gallery. I don't want BP to turn into Batman or Spider-Man let him be his own man, thats what's made him so successful so far.


    Moses Magnum, Morlun, Kraven etc. He's got good villains and enough material to retell those stories in other mediums.


    I don't want BP to go up against the same villain 20 times thats a bad look. 3 or 4 times is fine, but when your Batman and you're going up against the Joker for the 289th times and he's killed a couple thousand or so people......he's winning. Seriously go read Batman #48 if you haven't already I don't want this for BP. Iv'e always considered BP the common sense hero and outside of Doom War he usually lives up to the name.
    Facing the same villains 20 plus times comes from longevity. If you've published hundreds of issues spanning decades, you'll start seeing the same people again and again. Since TChalla is now a billion dollar movie franchise, overtime that will start to happen. But he's decades behind guys like Batman, so that might not be our problem. But overtime it's inevitable his gallery will grow and he'll start getting repeats.

  7. #75112
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Murdock View Post
    I didn't like how they ended that story, but there's potential for more.
    If they don't show,them die on panel, in fiction that often means they didn't die.

    I actually though of Kiber when Mae berry first revealed Shadow Physics as a means of teleportation. Thought they might be linked somehow, but the story never really went anywhere with it.

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    Incredible Member Mantis Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    I can get behind this. I don't like the Batman companions outside of stealth tho. Speed and strength wise his on Captain America tier so closer to Spider-Man than a regular human. So he can go up against crazy enemies and we don't have to bat an eye





    just read this story for the first time today; i loved how t'challa snapped that wolf's neck. that showed true power and his grit to do what had to be done. the whole 2nd hudlin tpb was fantastic! i also loved the zombies, i was laughing out loud and my wife thought i was crazy. i had never collected any of the 'zombie verse' books, but my daughter had, so i read them all today as well. so flipping funny!
    on the subject of weak villains, do you think bp's villains are middle of the road because stan and jack only saw him as that when they created him? sure they took a huge leap to make such a wonderful character, black, smart, and a king!! but were they reluctant to go one step further and make him an "a list hero"? was it priest that finally made this happen?

  9. #75114
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Dad View Post
    just read this story for the first time today; i loved how t'challa snapped that wolf's neck. that showed true power and his grit to do what had to be done. the whole 2nd hudlin tpb was fantastic! i also loved the zombies, i was laughing out loud and my wife thought i was crazy. i had never collected any of the 'zombie verse' books, but my daughter had, so i read them all today as well. so flipping funny!
    on the subject of weak villains, do you think bp's villains are middle of the road because stan and jack only saw him as that when they created him? sure they took a huge leap to make such a wonderful character, black, smart, and a king!! but were they reluctant to go one step further and make him an "a list hero"? was it priest that finally made this happen?
    Pre-Priest the character didn't have a Vibranium suit or energy daggers. The gear does effect the level of rogue he can face to some degree. And as the characters power level crept up, some of his previous rogues on paper at least lost the ability to keep up.

    Iron Man sort of had similar issues. As he got more and more powerful, a lot of his older rogues just sort of became obsolete.

    But I suppose the bigger issue is that certain BP writers didn't necessarily take the time to bother upgrading his rogues or making newer ones to fill the void.

  10. #75115
    Incredible Member Mantis Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Pre-Priest the character didn't have a Vibranium suit or energy daggers. The gear does effect the level of rogue he can face to some degree. And as the characters power level crept up, some of his previous rogues on paper at least lost the ability to keep up.

    Iron Man sort of had similar issues. As he got more and more powerful, a lot of his older rogues just sort of became obsolete.

    But I suppose the bigger issue is that certain BP writers didn't necessarily take the time to bother upgrading his rogues or making newer ones to fill the void.
    That makes sense. BTW, I will now use capital letters as well (Just got schooled by my 11 year old, plus she showed me how to on my weird chrome book), sorry for not doing this sooner. I was really enjoying that skinny bald guy from Priest's run, I thought of him as a potential "Joker" like character.

  11. #75116
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Dad View Post
    That makes sense. BTW, I will now use capital letters as well (Just got schooled by my 11 year old, plus she showed me how to on my weird chrome book), sorry for not doing this sooner. I was really enjoying that skinny bald guy from Priest's run, I thought of him as a potential "Joker" like character.
    Priest made some great rogues. Strictly speaking most weren't all that powerful, but similar to Batman they were interesting. In msnt cases the conflicts were very personal. It's a shame most were forgotten about after Priests run. Hopefully more will pop up again. We saw Hunter in Rise, and we know Malice will appear in Wakanda Forever. Sneaking Achebe somewhere would be cool.

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    Panther's issue with rogues is a three fold problem.

    He's not Spider-man or Batman, characters who go out looking for a fight. As a result, for better or worse (better, if writers made a damn effort, IMO), you have to be more discriminating to get decent rogues for T'Challa.

    Rather, he's a national leader who's always behind a high level of security as a matter of course. He doesn't patrol a city and leaves law enforcement to actual law enforcement. That limits his rogues to 3 kinds of villains.

    The first being those that are cunning enough, or personal enough, to draw him out. Achebe, M'Baku, Killmonger and the Midnight Angels, for example. T'Challa has to face them as a matter of personal honor instead of sending in his FBI, or what have you.

    The second is those strong enough to bull through said defenses quick enough to get at T'Challa before they can face a law enforcement response. Klaw is the best example, really though the Fenris Twins or the Supremists could also fall under that.

    Last, and IMO the most important, are the rogues who are just good enough to dance around Wakanda's security measures. Hunter and Malice did it all the time under Priest, and Kraven was good enough to get close enough to T'Challa to start a fight.

    T'Challa is one of the most dangerous men alive. So he needs rogues just as good as him who can get close and take a shot. On that score? T'Challa is sadly lacking.

  13. #75118
    Incredible Member Mantis Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Priest made some great rogues. Strictly speaking most weren't all that powerful, but similar to Batman they were interesting. In msnt cases the conflicts were very personal. It's a shame most were forgotten about after Priests run. Hopefully more will pop up again. We saw Hunter in Rise, and we know Malice will appear in Wakanda Forever. Sneaking Achebe somewhere would be cool.
    I really liked Achebe, and Malice too. I don't know if we will see her in the MCU, due to her being a true love interest and all. I can see her and him on a "Savage Six" villain team though, with Achebe being the 'mastermind'. I would leave Killmonger out; I like him as an individual villain. Plus, he has his own personal reasons for fighting T'Challa, that might be hard for 5 other villains to get behind.

    For the Savage Six I would like to see:
    Achebe
    Malice
    Klaw
    Arena Were-Wolf's daughter (I know she don't exist yet, but someone make her please)
    King Solomon's Toads/Frogs (they count as one, or they merge into an evil looking toad beast)
    Demon Prowler (have Robby's son get jacked up by Mephisto after selling his soul to save his dad or something).


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    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Panther's issue with rogues is a three fold problem.

    He's not Spider-man or Batman, characters who go out looking for a fight. As a result, for better or worse (better, if writers made a damn effort, IMO), you have to be more discriminating to get decent rogues for T'Challa.

    Rather, he's a national leader who's always behind a high level of security as a matter of course. He doesn't patrol a city and leaves law enforcement to actual law enforcement. That limits his rogues to 3 kinds of villains.

    The first being those that are cunning enough, or personal enough, to draw him out. Achebe, M'Baku, Killmonger and the Midnight Angels, for example. T'Challa has to face them as a matter of personal honor instead of sending in his FBI, or what have you.

    The second is those strong enough to bull through said defenses quick enough to get at T'Challa before they can face a law enforcement response. Klaw is the best example, really though the Fenris Twins or the Supremists could also fall under that.

    Last, and IMO the most important, are the rogues who are just good enough to dance around Wakanda's security measures. Hunter and Malice did it all the time under Priest, and Kraven was good enough to get close enough to T'Challa to start a fight.

    T'Challa is one of the most dangerous men alive. So he needs rogues just as good as him who can get close and take a shot. On that score? T'Challa is sadly lacking.
    Yeah, Wakanda itself is pretty much the problem. You need a villain capable to challenging or at least getting around a nation.

    A lot of time it's just easier to bypass that problem and have the character spend half his time in the States with his hero buddies.

    Ideally you want the hero to feel like the underdog to some degree. That rarely if ever is the case in Wakanda unless T'Challa is intentionally leaving himself more vulnerable.

  15. #75120
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Dad View Post
    I really liked Achebe, and Malice too. I don't know if we will see her in the MCU, due to her being a true love interest and all. I can see her and him on a "Savage Six" villain team though, with Achebe being the 'mastermind'. I would leave Killmonger out; I like him as an individual villain. Plus, he has his own personal reasons for fighting T'Challa, that might be hard for 5 other villains to get behind.

    For the Savage Six I would like to see:
    Achebe
    Malice
    Klaw
    Arena Were-Wolf's daughter (I know she don't exist yet, but someone make her please)
    King Solomon's Toads/Frogs (they count as one, or they merge into an evil looking toad beast)
    Demon Prowler (have Robby's son get jacked up by Mephisto after selling his soul to save his dad or something).

    You can actually do a whole Savage Six with Killmogner and his crew if you wanted. Baron Macarbe, Venmm, Madam Slay, both Malice's and Erik himself hits the magic number.

    Course they would all need a massive upgrade since T'Challa on paper should be able to beat the cap out of all of them if he's written at 100%.

    Killmomger alone has beaten T'Challa but that never entirely made sense to be. In Rise for example T'Challa loses to him in their first fight even though Eric is a normal guy and T'Challa is enhanced with the suit.

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