Black Panther Appreciation: Wakanda Forever!

[Double 0]

I thought he had a couple is Liss' book. The stuff with Kingpin for example was pretty good.

Kingpin is Spidey/Daredevil/Punisher level.

Compared to the Skrulls? Mephisto? Hell, Killmonger on a good day? He's local. T'Challa should be doing stuff that match his peers. Reed level stuff, not Parker level.

[FLEX HECTIC]

It just doesn't matter if T'challa wins or loses...


https://youtu.be/e9mf3Bypyk8

[XPac]

Kingpin is Spidey/Daredevil/Punisher level.

Compared to the Skrulls? Mephisto? Hell, Killmonger on a good day? He's local. T'Challa should be doing stuff that match his peers. Reed level stuff, not Parker level.

Most of T'Challa's rogues are frankly more closer to Kingpin level than Mephisto level to be honest. Which isn't to say he doesn't dabble in the higher end stuff, but a lot of his stories are a notch more down to earth. Because he's a king they tend to play with the political stuff a bit more.

To me I just don't buy the value of "level." If someone wants an uber powerful character facing uber powerful threats, read Thor. Characters like Black Panther and Spider-Man will do that occasionally... but different characters have different niches. With T'Challa you have characters like Kill Monger or Achebe or White Wolf who often have a more political slant because the character has a more political slant. The job description and enviroment to a degree dictate the type of threats they typically face, even though they certainly do face other things from time to time. Daredevil has fought Mephisto and Ultron too... but typically he will face Kingpin more. That's just the niche he typically serves because of the type of character he is.

Fantastic Four are space explorers... they'll face aliens and cosmic beings more. Thor is a god. He'll face demons and other gods more. And Daredevil faces street crime. They all have different unique niches which gives the greater picture more depth. Though certainly there's plenty of cross over.

[MindofShadow]

And all his "wins" feel like he lost too much for such a minor win. Other than Kingpin which was as total annihilation (but the conclusion will never be touched on again, let's be honest)

- Stop Doom from taking over the world... but loses supporting cast, vibranium, and the conclusion was so... 'eh' and Doom just went right back to his status quo that it hardly feels like win.

- he punches Swan in the face... but all that does is invite Swan to Wakanda which leads to Wakanda getting attacked multiple times. Oh, and then it got it destroyed and his sister murked.

- gets namor "killed" but... ends up keeping the Cabal alive, Namor lives anyway, and allows them to escape.

[Double 0]

Most of T'Challa's rogues are frankly more closer to Kingpin level than Mephisto level to be honest. Which isn't to say he doesn't dabble in the higher end stuff, but a lot of his stories are a notch more down to earth. Because he's a king they tend to play with the political stuff a bit more.

To me I just don't buy the value of "level." If someone wants an uber powerful character facing uber powerful threats, read Thor. Characters like Black Panther and Spider-Man will do that occasionally... but different characters have different niches. With T'Challa you have characters like Kill Monger or Achebe or White Wolf who often have a more political slant because the character has a more political slant. The job description and enviroment to a degree dictate the type of threats they typically face, even though they certainly do face other things from time to time. Daredevil has fought Mephisto and Ultron too... but typically he will face Kingpin more. That's just the niche he typically serves because of the type of character he is.

Fantastic Four are space explorers... they'll face aliens and cosmic beings more. Thor is a god. He'll face demons and other gods more. And Daredevil faces street crime. They all have different unique niches which gives the greater picture more depth. Though certainly there's plenty of cross over.

He's a genius. He should be facing threats that match up or are above his ability, period. Be it political, sci-fi, or both.

He shouldn't be messing with Daredevil/Spidey level threats, but threats that endanger all of Wakanda or more (unless personal). Anything less than that is devaluing the character, which Marvel is prone to doing.

[XPac]

And all his "wins" feel like he lost too much for such a minor win. Other than Kingpin which was as total annihilation (but the conclusion will never be touched on again, let's be honest)

- Stop Doom from taking over the world... but loses supporting cast, vibranium, and the conclusion was so... 'eh' and Doom just went right back to his status quo that it hardly feels like win.

- he punches Swan in the face... but all that does is invite Swan to Wakanda which leads to Wakanda getting attacked multiple times. Oh, and then it got it destroyed and his sister murked.

- gets namor "killed" but... ends up keeping the Cabal alive, Namor lives anyway, and allows them to escape.

As far as Namor goes, Atlantis was destroyed too. So both Wakanda and Atlantis suceeded in destroying each other, if that makes anyone feel better about the situation. He just didn't suceed in killing Namor, just like he didn't kill Doom. Marvel's not going to kill great characters simply to make T'Challa's wins seem more meaningful. Especially if the character is being used at the time.

But certainly heroes do at times suffer more than the villains they face. T'Challa is a good example (maybe the best at the moment), but Daredevil might be the posterboy for it. Matt and punch Kingpin and his goons in the face and it still won't change the fact that his life often sucks.

Heroes are sometimes tragic characters. It's less about balancing things out and really more about telling stories. Sometimes the villains will be killed. Sometimes they go to jail. But most of the time the important thing really is the effect the story has on the hero, rather than the villain. But the upside is that things always return to status quo later anyways.

[Anthony Shaw]

I don't have anything to say about the marriage but this:

Through that marriage, Marvel proved why they need more diverse writers. Look at the writers who made the marriage look great, and then look at the ones who made it look mediocre/bad. Proofs in the pudding.

I totally agree with this!

[XPac]

He's a genius. He should be facing threats that match up or are above his ability, period. Be it political, sci-fi, or both.

He shouldn't be messing with Daredevil/Spidey level threats, but threats that endanger all of Wakanda or more (unless personal). Anything less than that is devaluing the character, which Marvel is prone to doing.

Typically his threats do endanger Wakanda... most are guys trying to take over or de-stabilize his country. Achebe, White Wolf, Kill Monger, Man Ape... they're not Mephisto level threats but they are threats. And IMO that's what you're more likely to see in the Black Panther movie than say him battling Mephisto.

[FLEX HECTIC]

Here is what a Black Panther writer should not do...


1. Do not have a villain like Doom hold your wife and mother at gunpoint after shooting your uncle to death when there are 1001 ways to go around this with other less revenge heavy story arcs!


2. If there is zero chance of your main character killing another main character like Namor then just don't write that as an oft repeated verbally committed set up since it will never ever pay off!


3. There is nothing wrong with having nameless/faceless Wakandan soldiers die on the field of battle during a great war but to have "NAMED" Wakandan children on a field trip get killed by B-Swizzy aka Black Swan and have not one Wakandan parent ask one single question about there missing children whatsoever is a plot loophole big enough to film a Jeep off road commercial in!


Why go there if you cannot go there at all?


And another thing...


Why would a top "architect" like Hickman even bother with X-trollling Black Panther fans wasting valuable panel space showing T'challa and Ororo getting that Wolverine sloppy seconds fling on?


Who not only is giving a FRAK about that ancient black power couple but who is even checking for that in any narrative revenue wise?


After three years Hickman is yet another Black Panther writer experiencing mental fatigue... Let's find another Hudlin not off the standard issue Fanbratti tree that will relish the Black Panther writing duties and stay strong like Claremont did on his X-men run for a good decade!


I would rather there be a writer hanging in there with a gleeful joy for 10 years strong that retires gracefully after putting in some work worthy of praise not OOPS up out the door when things go south again and again... Let's get some consistency in the Chadwick Boseman era!


Also... Let's get started on his own rogues gallery where you can threaten and kill as many of your own villains as you want without asking editorial permission every two seconds!


(Drops 1 million broken spears at T'challa's feet as if this means something to anyone on any level at all)


Carry on...

[MindofShadow]

Here is what a Black Panther writer should not do...


1. Do not have a villain like Doom hold your wife and mother at gunpoint after shooting your uncle to death when there are 1001 ways to go around this with other less revenge heavy story arcs!


2. If there is zero chance of your main character killing another main character like Namor then just don't write that as an oft repeated verbally committed set up since it will never ever pay off!


3. There is nothing wrong with having nameless/faceless Wakandan soldiers die on the field of battle during a great war but to have "NAMED" Wakandan children on a field trip get killed by B-Swizzy aka Black Swan and have not one Wakandan parent ask one single question about there missing children whatsoever is a plot loophole big enough to film a Jeep off road commercial in!


Why go there if you cannot go there at all?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Surf]

Is it agreed that the best of the Panther's stories have been in the past decade? Priest and Hudlin's run, marrying Storm, these are the most notable in the what- 40 years of the character. I do have a handful of the Kirby run from back when that embarrassingly I still have yet to read (along with about 200 other titles from the last 30 years) and maybe due to Kirby's art do at least look pretty good.

I've always been more of a Luke Cage fan similarly that I have followed Bruce more than Clark over the years. I do like Panther but I've always felt he falls into similar constraints that Superman does as it's nearly impossible to physically put him down. To that add the idealized Wakandan country and it can make antagonism difficult or at least more work. Does that make sense? Are there no jails or asylums in Wakanda? Has the land ever rejected the swell of the vibranium that is held in Wakanda? Killmonger has been cool I guess but I'm over Klaw, is their no Parasite type character that feeds from something unique to Wakanda? Every advanced society any of us has ever read about in a comic story has had a downfall of one kind or another at one point, many come out of it on the other side.There is a richness that the character has that has never quite been taped into until recently at least, so many characters are featured more with less.

The worst part is your current crop of comic writers are more or less semi-hot **** commodities in entertainment. They all would rather put their stink on an established idea than for one of their own. That's the biggest foe of the Panther as I see it.

[XPac]

Is it agreed that the best of the Panther's stories have been in the past decade? Priest and Hudlin's run, marrying Storm, these are the most notable in the what- 40 years of the character. I do have a handful of the Kirby run from back when that embarrassingly I still have yet to read (along with about 200 other titles from the last 30 years) and maybe due to Kirby's art do at least look pretty good.

I've always been more of a Luke Cage fan similarly that I have followed Bruce more than Clark over the years. I do like Panther but I've always felt he falls into similar constraints that Superman does as it's nearly impossible to physically put him down. To that add the idealized Wakandan country and it can make antagonism difficult or at least more work. Does that make sense? Are there no jails or asylums in Wakanda? Has the land ever rejected the swell of the vibranium that is held in Wakanda? Killmonger has been cool I guess but I'm over Klaw, is their no Parasite type character that feeds from something unique to Wakanda? Every advanced society any of us has ever read about in a comic story has had a downfall of one kind or another at one point, many come out of it on the other side.There is a richness that the character has that has never quite been taped into until recently at least, so many characters are featured more with less.

The worst part is your current crop of comic writers are more or less semi-hot **** commodities in entertainment. They all would rather put their stink on an established idea than for one of their own. That's the biggest foe of the Panther as I see it.

I'd say Priest then Liss. Though my single favorite BP story might be Aarons Secret Invasion tie in. But all that is just my opinion.

[Marvell2100]

Here is what a Black Panther writer should not do...


1. Do not have a villain like Doom hold your wife and mother at gunpoint after shooting your uncle to death when there are 1001 ways to go around this with other less revenge heavy story arcs!


2. If there is zero chance of your main character killing another main character like Namor then just don't write that as an oft repeated verbally committed set up since it will never ever pay off!


3. There is nothing wrong with having nameless/faceless Wakandan soldiers die on the field of battle during a great war but to have "NAMED" Wakandan children on a field trip get killed by B-Swizzy aka Black Swan and have not one Wakandan parent ask one single question about there missing children whatsoever is a plot loophole big enough to film a Jeep off road commercial in!


Why go there if you cannot go there at all?


And another thing...


Why would a top "architect" like Hickman even bother with X-trollling Black Panther fans wasting valuable panel space showing T'challa and Ororo getting that Wolverine sloppy seconds fling on?


Who not only is giving a FRAK about that ancient black power couple but who is even checking for that in any narrative revenue wise?


After three years Hickman is yet another Black Panther writer experiencing mental fatigue... Let's find another Hudlin not off the standard issue Fanbratti tree that will relish the Black Panther writing duties and stay strong like Claremont did on his X-men run for a good decade!


I would rather there be a writer hanging in there with a gleeful joy for 10 years strong that retires gracefully after putting in some work worthy of praise not OOPS up out the door when things go south again and again... Let's get some consistency in the Chadwick Boseman era!


Also... Let's get started on his own rogues gallery where you can threaten and kill as many of your own villains as you want without asking editorial permission every two seconds!


(Drops 1 million broken spears at T'challa's feet as if this means something to anyone on any level at all)


Carry on...

Good post.

T'Challa should have had a solo written alongside New Avengers so that the topics you brought up could have been dealt with. And Doom's choice as a villain never really ends up as a "win" for the hero. He has setbacks, he never loses.

[FLEX HECTIC]

I don't recall how many if at all the times Reed Richards threatened to kill Doom over his consistent shenanigans or those who have threatened Namor with death... Most of the time it is rinse, dry and repeat with their battles where the good guys triumph over the bad guys time and time again!


This should not be a problem for the Black Panther who should do likewise but if you make it ever so personal what it is that the bad guy does to him, family or Wakanda it creates an environment similar to Bin Ladin where there is absolutely no way that you can give them a pass and keep a straight face going forward!


Aaron had a whole bunch of nameless faceless Skrulls slaughtered with his "See Wakanda and Die" story arc but you cannot do the same with solo villains that still make revenue like Doom and Namor do!


If Doom outside of the basic super hero battlefield of lasers and Michael Bay explosions took Sue Storm and traumatized her like he did Storm you are placing Reed and her brother Johnny in Frank Castle territory that goes beyond the standard issue comic book retaliations!


You can't unpush buttons once you have pushed them and not expect certain concepts to be questioned along the way...


You can't have a villain go real world ISIS and not expect coalitions to plot your destruction on the spot... In comic books certain lines should never be crossed if you can't cash the check that your @$$ wrote!


In the real world there are men who actually kill over less than what has happened to Black Panther!


So far Doom, Namor and even B-swizzy (child killer) were given passes by a leader of a warrior nation with blood already on his hands just to keep the job that he has!

[RLAAMJR.]

Here is what a Black Panther writer should not do...


1. Do not have a villain like Doom hold your wife and mother at gunpoint after shooting your uncle to death when there are 1001 ways to go around this with other less revenge heavy story arcs!


2. If there is zero chance of your main character killing another main character like Namor then just don't write that as an oft repeated verbally committed set up since it will never ever pay off!


3. There is nothing wrong with having nameless/faceless Wakandan soldiers die on the field of battle during a great war but to have "NAMED" Wakandan children on a field trip get killed by B-Swizzy aka Black Swan and have not one Wakandan parent ask one single question about there missing children whatsoever is a plot loophole big enough to film a Jeep off road commercial in!


Why go there if you cannot go there at all?


And another thing...


Why would a top "architect" like Hickman even bother with X-trollling Black Panther fans wasting valuable panel space showing T'challa and Ororo getting that Wolverine sloppy seconds fling on?


Who not only is giving a FRAK about that ancient black power couple but who is even checking for that in any narrative revenue wise?


After three years Hickman is yet another Black Panther writer experiencing mental fatigue... Let's find another Hudlin not off the standard issue Fanbratti tree that will relish the Black Panther writing duties and stay strong like Claremont did on his X-men run for a good decade!


I would rather there be a writer hanging in there with a gleeful joy for 10 years strong that retires gracefully after putting in some work worthy of praise not OOPS up out the door when things go south again and again... Let's get some consistency in the Chadwick Boseman era!


Also... Let's get started on his own rogues gallery where you can threaten and kill as many of your own villains as you want without asking editorial permission every two seconds!


(Drops 1 million broken spears at T'challa's feet as if this means something to anyone on any level at all)


Carry on...

You should start writing a book Flex so that when Marvel picks it up and loves it, they would hire you as a writer and then you can request to write for a Black Panther ongoing solo.