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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by db105 View Post
    What you say is true, but still having him die at 16 years old is an extremely wrong and depressing ending for the saga of such a great character. It would be like having Batman die in Year One. It's just wrong...

    If they absolutely had to get rid of him, I would have preferred for them to keep him around a few more years and let him age a few years, and then, when he is in college, he could have an unplanned child with Mary Jane, and decide that his new responsibilities as a father wouldn't allow him to continue as Spider-Man. Combine him with some problems with his enemies targeting his family and it's time for him to fake his own death, with Fury's help, and retire.

    Of course, with Bendis at the helm, aging a few years would probably take 20 years of stories

    I also agree that Miles is not as well-defined as a character as Peter. Still, it's a bit unfair to compare him against one of the best two superheroes ever. Also, he's still so young... Maybe we readers can find out who he is it along with Miles himself.

    Anyway, it's also true that people want to read about him because he is Spider-Man. It's a rather lazy way to make a character successful. Just kill Peter and let Miles take his mantle. The problem is that I don't see new characters really succeeding on their own, even if they are good.
    I agree with all of this. But the fact that something is HARD doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Venom was created in the 90s, decades after most of the great superheroes, and is massively popular. Spawn has his own movie. Invincible has had a very successful long run (I keep meaning to check that out). I understand the problem, I just don't believe we should give up on it.

  2. #17
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    I am totally glad I made that post yesterday before I read Venom War and beyond.

    So we're gonna have to break this up into a couple of posts, because that's what I want to do, First up.....

    Spider-Men 1-5

    - This story was basically what I expected from it, both entertaining and disappointing, similar to but not on the same level as Spider-Man: Blue. It's a fun little explanation to the Ultimate Mysterio, and there are some good interaction between Peter and the Ultimate characters ("What's he like?" "He's White." "That's too bad.")

    -With that said, the disappointment comes from his interaction with Gwen, which I think they kept way too light. Sure, Peter cries on the front lawn, but that seems to be about the alternate universe/his alternate self's death. There's no gut punch, no gut-wrenching, not really much of anything from seeing his love alive and well (as far as he knows). Sure, it's not HIS Gwen, but emotionally there should be some reaction. Even just hugging her and not wanting to let go, even if it's just a moment. Hell, you could have him step in it by saying how thankful he is that THIS version's Gwen survived, when of course she didn't.

    -Similarly, I wanted him to chase after Mary Jane. That moment did have a bit of emotion to it, but not as much as I would have liked. Again, they seemed intent on making the story fun and that's fine but you have to give the devil his due, so to speak. If you have him meet Gwen Stacy you gotta have him deal with meeting Gwen Stacy. If you have him see a tearful Mary Jane crying over his death, you gotta have him take care of her, have that tough moment between the two (and have him question what that means for his own reality).

    -I hate to continually bring up the same tired specter, but I can't help but blame OMD for this to a certain extent. Like, Bendis didn't want to get too deep into it because he couldn't without dealing with all that stuff that Marvel currently doesn't want to deal with. The conversation with Gwen is different if he's married to Mary Jane. The conversation with Mary Jane is way different if he's married to Mary Jane. I mean, if he's married to her he can at least give her the assurances that he really did love her and that he would want her to move on and be happy. If he's with Mary Jane he can tell Gwen about how their relationship started after Gwen's death (and this should be of some comfort to Gwen because that means she did win....in one universe). But with continuity in its current state, you can't have those same conversations. You can have SIMILAR conversations, but not the same ones, and they're weaker, and thus I suspect this is why Bendis just didn't even go there. If you can't do it right.......but it's still disappointing that we didn't GET those conversations, even if that was the reason.

    -Miles beats Peter? Really? No. Bad Bendis.

    -However...calling this Spider-Men in general is kinda giving Miles too much credit. The kid gets his moments, but this is really "Peter Parker visits the Ultimate Universe". Miles is very much secondary to this story.

    -How did Mysterio get back for Ends of the Earth again? Why were the two so buddy buddy in that story? Co-ordination, kiddos.

    -This is getting into some stuff in the main book, but sometimes I feel like they're trying to make us support Miles with these books by having the characters go out of their way to be supportive. Peter is great with Miles being Spider-Man, too great. Like, no word of warning, no caution to what could happen, no concern if he's doing the right thing. Peter has shown himself to be a bit of a hypocrite in the past when it comes to super-heroics, never giving it up but being quite judgmental of others attempting it. Miles gets none of that. Just....unquestioning support. It's...a little annoying. But, that's the end of Spider-Men, and it dovetails nicely with the main book, so....

  3. #18
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    And now....

    Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man #13-28
    Cataclysm: Ultimate Spider-Man #1-3
    Ultimate Spider-Man #200

    -I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, I want to see Gwen and Mary Jane far more than any other character in this book. On the other hand....they're FAR too accepting. Aunt May as well. I'm not saying they should object completely to Miles being Spider-Man, I'm not saying they have to scream at him and tell him to quit and all that. But some balance would be nice. Some hesitation, some concern, some feeling of wrongness inside that's irrational but no less real. Seeing Miles should be just plain HARD for them, because he would bring back flooding the memories of the one they lost. It goes back to what I was saying last post, that at times the book seems to be trying to convince the reader that we should like/support Miles. Like "SEE! THEY LIKE HIM! SO SHOULD YOU!"

    -I have basically nothing to say about United We Stand. Makes little sense without reading the other books, and I didn't read the other books. *shrug*

    -Venom War is probably the best arc in the series now, though I feel like we should have gotten more explanation as to where the symbiote came from and how that doctor got a hold of it. Maybe I missed something? I mean, I know he was working at Roxxon and they were doing experiments at Roxxon. But...yeah that was weird. Miles' mother getting shot by a cop in the crossfire was an...interesting twist.

    -Has it ever been explained why Miles' last name is Morales like his mother and not Davis like his father?

    -Spider-Man No More kinda made me not like Miles. I went from having no opinion to a negative opinion. It balances out by the end, but yeah, his quitting and the WAY he quits just kind of bothers me. Now, this may seem odd after saying Miles had no reason to stick to being Spider-Man, but it's mostly the active disengagement that bothers me. Like, if he didn't go out of his way to go fight supervillains, I would understand that, but when he ignores situations right in front of him, it stops being a superhero matter and starts being a "be a good person" matter. which was all Miles had going for him. And then he didn't even have that. He got it back, but still, the early part of that arc was not good for him.

    -I'm starting to think Miles just might be boring. Like, he's just plain ordinary. He's....too normal.

    -It's unreasonable for me to expect Mary Jane/Gwen to spend the rest of their lives mourning Peter Parker. With that said, Ultimate Spider-Man 200 was emotionally jarring and felt wrong. Just...no. I know, I wanted to see more of them, but honestly I'm just not prepared to see them move on like that. I know that's best for them. I know it's happier for them, but...I think what it does is feel even more like a kick to Peter's gut for dying. Like, maybe it's because I'm religious and believe in the life hereafter, but no mater how special he was to them, Ultimate Mary Jane in particular, he's not going to be as special as the one they spend their life with. And I think that just makes me bitter inside. It makes me feel like in the end he lost. It makes me think of all the things he didn't get again and I feel mad/disappointed in that. It's NOT fair, and I know that. It's not the loving perspective, and it's a bum deal for the others in his life. I guess...I guess I'm just mad that's its not fair to him. That he'll be left by the wayside, just a memory in their life, a what could have been and nothing more. But not because it didn't work out, not because of life choices and changing goals, but because he did the right thing, and he lost everything. Even being someone's love.

    -To a certain extent, I think I might just be upset with Ultimate Spider-Man 200 for opening the not that old of a wound for me. Still sad about Peter dying.=\

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    And now....

    Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man #13-28
    Cataclysm: Ultimate Spider-Man #1-3
    Ultimate Spider-Man #200

    -I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, I want to see Gwen and Mary Jane far more than any other character in this book. On the other hand....they're FAR too accepting. Aunt May as well. I'm not saying they should object completely to Miles being Spider-Man, I'm not saying they have to scream at him and tell him to quit and all that. But some balance would be nice. Some hesitation, some concern, some feeling of wrongness inside that's irrational but no less real. Seeing Miles should be just plain HARD for them, because he would bring back flooding the memories of the one they lost. It goes back to what I was saying last post, that at times the book seems to be trying to convince the reader that we should like/support Miles. Like "SEE! THEY LIKE HIM! SO SHOULD YOU!"

    -I have basically nothing to say about United We Stand. Makes little sense without reading the other books, and I didn't read the other books. *shrug*
    Damn crossovers.

    -Venom War is probably the best arc in the series now, though I feel like we should have gotten more explanation as to where the symbiote came from and how that doctor got a hold of it. Maybe I missed something? I mean, I know he was working at Roxxon and they were doing experiments at Roxxon. But...yeah that was weird. Miles' mother getting shot by a cop in the crossfire was an...interesting twist.

    -Has it ever been explained why Miles' last name is Morales like his mother and not Davis like his father?
    His father took his wife's name when they married. It happens sometimes. (If you want another fiction example, Gendo Ikari of Neon Genesis Evangelion took his wife's name when they married.)

    -Spider-Man No More kinda made me not like Miles. I went from having no opinion to a negative opinion. It balances out by the end, but yeah, his quitting and the WAY he quits just kind of bothers me. Now, this may seem odd after saying Miles had no reason to stick to being Spider-Man, but it's mostly the active disengagement that bothers me. Like, if he didn't go out of his way to go fight supervillains, I would understand that, but when he ignores situations right in front of him, it stops being a superhero matter and starts being a "be a good person" matter. which was all Miles had going for him. And then he didn't even have that. He got it back, but still, the early part of that arc was not good for him.

    -I'm starting to think Miles just might be boring. Like, he's just plain ordinary. He's....too normal.
    I thought that was the point.

    -It's unreasonable for me to expect Mary Jane/Gwen to spend the rest of their lives mourning Peter Parker. With that said, Ultimate Spider-Man 200 was emotionally jarring and felt wrong. Just...no. I know, I wanted to see more of them, but honestly I'm just not prepared to see them move on like that. I know that's best for them. I know it's happier for them, but...I think what it does is feel even more like a kick to Peter's gut for dying. Like, maybe it's because I'm religious and believe in the life hereafter, but no mater how special he was to them, Ultimate Mary Jane in particular, he's not going to be as special as the one they spend their life with. And I think that just makes me bitter inside. It makes me feel like in the end he lost. It makes me think of all the things he didn't get again and I feel mad/disappointed in that. It's NOT fair, and I know that. It's not the loving perspective, and it's a bum deal for the others in his life. I guess...I guess I'm just mad that's its not fair to him. That he'll be left by the wayside, just a memory in their life, a what could have been and nothing more. But not because it didn't work out, not because of life choices and changing goals, but because he did the right thing, and he lost everything. Even being someone's love.

    -To a certain extent, I think I might just be upset with Ultimate Spider-Man 200 for opening the not that old of a wound for me. Still sad about Peter dying.=\
    I think you hit the nail on the head. It's supposed to be over a year since "The Death of Spider-Man." Seeing them try to move on isn't unreasonable. But you read all this comics so close together, I can't blame you for being taken aback by this.

    Since you only read Spider-Man, you didn't notice that we got Ultimate Versions of Marvel's Young Avengers. "Giant-Woman/Stature" is the Ultimate version of Cassie Lang. She's the daughter of the second Ant-Man, and became a super herself. She died fighting Dr. Doom, but they recently teased that she wasn't as dead as she seemed because comics. (Spidey saw that fight. You'd think he'd have been... taken aback seeing a father cradling the body of his dead 15 year old daughter. But Marvel appears not to give a crap about coordinating this stuff between books.)

    The girls Miles starts seeing is Katie Bishop. In the mainstream universe, she's the female Hawkeye. If you think Ultimate Gwen and MJ are different than their mainstream counterparts, Kate is by far the most changed.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    I am totally glad I made that post yesterday before I read Venom War and beyond.

    So we're gonna have to break this up into a couple of posts, because that's what I want to do, First up.....

    Spider-Men 1-5

    - This story was basically what I expected from it, both entertaining and disappointing, similar to but not on the same level as Spider-Man: Blue. It's a fun little explanation to the Ultimate Mysterio, and there are some good interaction between Peter and the Ultimate characters ("What's he like?" "He's White." "That's too bad.")

    -With that said, the disappointment comes from his interaction with Gwen, which I think they kept way too light. Sure, Peter cries on the front lawn, but that seems to be about the alternate universe/his alternate self's death. There's no gut punch, no gut-wrenching, not really much of anything from seeing his love alive and well (as far as he knows). Sure, it's not HIS Gwen, but emotionally there should be some reaction. Even just hugging her and not wanting to let go, even if it's just a moment. Hell, you could have him step in it by saying how thankful he is that THIS version's Gwen survived, when of course she didn't.

    -Similarly, I wanted him to chase after Mary Jane. That moment did have a bit of emotion to it, but not as much as I would have liked. Again, they seemed intent on making the story fun and that's fine but you have to give the devil his due, so to speak. If you have him meet Gwen Stacy you gotta have him deal with meeting Gwen Stacy. If you have him see a tearful Mary Jane crying over his death, you gotta have him take care of her, have that tough moment between the two (and have him question what that means for his own reality).

    -I hate to continually bring up the same tired specter, but I can't help but blame OMD for this to a certain extent. Like, Bendis didn't want to get too deep into it because he couldn't without dealing with all that stuff that Marvel currently doesn't want to deal with. The conversation with Gwen is different if he's married to Mary Jane. The conversation with Mary Jane is way different if he's married to Mary Jane. I mean, if he's married to her he can at least give her the assurances that he really did love her and that he would want her to move on and be happy. If he's with Mary Jane he can tell Gwen about how their relationship started after Gwen's death (and this should be of some comfort to Gwen because that means she did win....in one universe). But with continuity in its current state, you can't have those same conversations. You can have SIMILAR conversations, but not the same ones, and they're weaker, and thus I suspect this is why Bendis just didn't even go there. If you can't do it right.......but it's still disappointing that we didn't GET those conversations, even if that was the reason.

    -Miles beats Peter? Really? No. Bad Bendis.

    -However...calling this Spider-Men in general is kinda giving Miles too much credit. The kid gets his moments, but this is really "Peter Parker visits the Ultimate Universe". Miles is very much secondary to this story.

    -How did Mysterio get back for Ends of the Earth again? Why were the two so buddy buddy in that story? Co-ordination, kiddos.

    -This is getting into some stuff in the main book, but sometimes I feel like they're trying to make us support Miles with these books by having the characters go out of their way to be supportive. Peter is great with Miles being Spider-Man, too great. Like, no word of warning, no caution to what could happen, no concern if he's doing the right thing. Peter has shown himself to be a bit of a hypocrite in the past when it comes to super-heroics, never giving it up but being quite judgmental of others attempting it. Miles gets none of that. Just....unquestioning support. It's...a little annoying. But, that's the end of Spider-Men, and it dovetails nicely with the main book, so....
    Seemed to me that Miles fit in pretty well with the Ultimate cast, Aunt May and Gwen and all. Maybe a little to neatly, but Miles doesn't seem to be facing a lot of conflict in becoming Spider-man.

    Spider-men took place after Ends of the Earth as well.

    Also, Bendis had Peter give Miles some quick words of warning and advice before he got teleported back to his own dimension ("don't let anyone c lone you").

    Truthfully, it seems like Bendis does rely too much on Peter's old cast when Miles should be able to stand on his own , and be fleshed out, more. Maybe he has though, I stopped reading his series a long while back.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Damn crossovers.



    His father took his wife's name when they married. It happens sometimes. (If you want another fiction example, Gendo Ikari of Neon Genesis Evangelion took his wife's name when they married.)
    That would be a fine explanation, but they call him Jefferso Davis more than once, sooooo...


    I thought that was the point.
    Maybe it is. But it's boring.

    I think you hit the nail on the head. It's supposed to be over a year since "The Death of Spider-Man." Seeing them try to move on isn't unreasonable. But you read all this comics so close together, I can't blame you for being taken aback by this.

    Since you only read Spider-Man, you didn't notice that we got Ultimate Versions of Marvel's Young Avengers. "Giant-Woman/Stature" is the Ultimate version of Cassie Lang. She's the daughter of the second Ant-Man, and became a super herself. She died fighting Dr. Doom, but they recently teased that she wasn't as dead as she seemed because comics. (Spidey saw that fight. You'd think he'd have been... taken aback seeing a father cradling the body of his dead 15 year old daughter. But Marvel appears not to give a crap about coordinating this stuff between books.)

    The girls Miles starts seeing is Katie Bishop. In the mainstream universe, she's the female Hawkeye. If you think Ultimate Gwen and MJ are different than their mainstream counterparts, Kate is by far the most changed.
    I actually do know who Kate Bishop is only because I played Marvel Heroes.

    As for being upset at them moving on, again, it's not fair to them, and again, reading them all so close together I think I also had a stronger reaction than I would if I hadn't. But I think the rest of it would still bother me, just less pronounced. I think it's because we never really got to see that love fulfilled in any significant way that makes me bitter towards future loves they may have. It'd be one thing if they had gotten on a level where the best future lovers could do is match Peter's relationship with them, but, well, it's not that hard to get further along than Peter. For all their protestations of love, they're a couple of sixteen year old girls. Mary Jane at the very least had already had a boyfriend before Peter. Frankly, that just isn't that special, that isn't that meaningful to their lives in the long run. Every sixteen year old girl (and half the guys) is sure she's in love with some guy and it's the most important thing in their life. It's meaningless. Without some further step, it's just potential, and LOTS of things have potential that don't go anywhere. I want some "proof" that he's special or else I get bitter that he's gonna lose just because he died.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    Seemed to me that Miles fit in pretty well with the Ultimate cast, Aunt May and Gwen and all. Maybe a little to neatly, but Miles doesn't seem to be facing a lot of conflict in becoming Spider-man.

    Spider-men took place after Ends of the Earth as well.

    Also, Bendis had Peter give Miles some quick words of warning and advice before he got teleported back to his own dimension ("don't let anyone c lone you").

    Truthfully, it seems like Bendis does rely too much on Peter's old cast when Miles should be able to stand on his own , and be fleshed out, more. Maybe he has though, I stopped reading his series a long while back.
    1) Peter's "advice" was a series of jokes. You know that doesn't count.
    2) The fact that Miles isn't facing any conflict about being Spider-Man is kind of my problem. Considering how the last one ended, I expect begrudging acceptance at best. At least from SOMEONE. But not only do we get no resistance, they're actively going out of their way to support him. Like, someone should have an issue with this. I'm not saying everyone. I'm saying someone should have thrown some kind of temper tantrum at the replacement of Peter by this kid they don't even know. And I mean someone IN-universe, not just the fanboys. =p

    *sigh*

    now I'm out of Spider-Man to read. I can track down a couple of TPB's I haven't read, like The Evil that Men Do, the second and third volumes of MTU (though I question how valuable those would be)...or I can try to finish Superior again. All these options kind of suck.
    Last edited by Xenon; 10-06-2014 at 01:31 PM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    now I'm out of Spider-Man to read. I can track down a couple of TPB's I haven't read, like The Evil that Men Do, the second and third volumes of MTU (though I question how valuable those would be)...or I can try to finish Superior again. All these options kind of suck.
    Well by all means, you need to read The Evil That Men Do. Like to see what you think of it.

    If you're looking for a Spider-man fix, I picked up a book of short stories from Byron Press, from back in the 90's (the Ultimate Spider-man---non-Bendis related of course). The first story is a retelling of the origin, written by Stan Lee with none other than Peter David, and it is fantastic. I'm about halfway through the book--there's some good stuff in there.

  8. #23
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    OOOOO! I thought of it. I thought of a good parallel for the Mary Jane stuff.

    Let's say that in 2007 instead of what we got with OMD what we got was the death of Spider-Man in that universe. Now obviously I'd be against that, but in that scenario, if we skipped to two years later and Mary Jane was dating some random other guy, it wouldn't bother me. It wouldn't bother me because at best the new guy can just equal Peter's relationship with her (marriage) and we got to see that relationship fulfilled. It came to fruition and "completion" (calling a relationship complete is a silly concept, but it's the best word for what I'm trying to get across). Without that fulfillment, I think I'll always feel every relationship another loss for him (though, to be fair, I'm not saying that fulfillment has to be a marriage).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    Well by all means, you need to read The Evil That Men Do. Like to see what you think of it.

    If you're looking for a Spider-man fix, I picked up a book of short stories from Byron Press, from back in the 90's (the Ultimate Spider-man---non-Bendis related of course). The first story is a retelling of the origin, written by Stan Lee with none other than Peter David, and it is fantastic. I'm about halfway through the book--there's some good stuff in there.
    1)I've meant to read that for a long time but I think what happened was I read from about 1995-2011 in about a month and therefore didn't take the time to go pick it up in its proper place.
    2) That's interesting. If it's by David I'll have to read that.
    3) You have reminded me however that there's a Spider-Man universe I missed. Well, not missed completely, but haven't fully explored. That's right, I'm going all-ages...Marvel Adventures Spider-Man. I already have the first hardcover from a going out of business sale. =p

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    1)I've meant to read that for a long time but I think what happened was I read from about 1995-2011 in about a month and therefore didn't take the time to go pick it up in its proper place.
    2) That's interesting. If it's by David I'll have to read that.
    1 It's interesting to place it in the context of the books that came after--in other words, a character introduced in it goes on to appear in PAD's FNSM which I just finished re-reading last night, incidentally..

    2 Peter David has another story in the book, his own, but it's the last one and I haven't got to it yet. There's also a decent Michelinie story, and a pretty freaky Mysterio one that I really liked.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    -With that said, the disappointment comes from his interaction with Gwen, which I think they kept way too light. Sure, Peter cries on the front lawn, but that seems to be about the alternate universe/his alternate self's death. There's no gut punch, no gut-wrenching, not really much of anything from seeing his love alive and well (as far as he knows). Sure, it's not HIS Gwen, but emotionally there should be some reaction. Even just hugging her and not wanting to let go, even if it's just a moment. Hell, you could have him step in it by saying how thankful he is that THIS version's Gwen survived, when of course she didn't.
    I dunno if I was disappointed with Peter and Gwen interaction, cause I found it enjoyable. The thing with Peter is that for him, his Gwen died around 5 years, probably 6 at that point. So I don't really see him being hung up on her being alive more than her just being happy.

    -Similarly, I wanted him to chase after Mary Jane. That moment did have a bit of emotion to it, but not as much as I would have liked. Again, they seemed intent on making the story fun and that's fine but you have to give the devil his due, so to speak. If you have him meet Gwen Stacy you gotta have him deal with meeting Gwen Stacy. If you have him see a tearful Mary Jane crying over his death, you gotta have him take care of her, have that tough moment between the two (and have him question what that means for his own reality).

    -I hate to continually bring up the same tired specter, but I can't help but blame OMD for this to a certain extent. Like, Bendis didn't want to get too deep into it because he couldn't without dealing with all that stuff that Marvel currently doesn't want to deal with. The conversation with Gwen is different if he's married to Mary Jane. The conversation with Mary Jane is way different if he's married to Mary Jane. I mean, if he's married to her he can at least give her the assurances that he really did love her and that he would want her to move on and be happy. If he's with Mary Jane he can tell Gwen about how their relationship started after Gwen's death (and this should be of some comfort to Gwen because that means she did win....in one universe). But with continuity in its current state, you can't have those same conversations. You can have SIMILAR conversations, but not the same ones, and they're weaker, and thus I suspect this is why Bendis just didn't even go there. If you can't do it right.......but it's still disappointing that we didn't GET those conversations, even if that was the reason.
    Honestly, I really thought that scene was better because of OMD. Just because of when he saw Mary Jane, and just realizing everything that happened between Peter and his Mary Jane caused him to hesitate at that moment. Like sure the marriage would made the interaction sweeter, but OMD made it harder for Peter to feel ok. Cause he knew the reasons why MJ broke up with him, and seeing Ultimate MJ in that sort of state just drove that point even closer to him. It became more emotional, because Peter sees another reality where things didn't work out for the two of them, which just makes him frustrated.

    -How did Mysterio get back for Ends of the Earth again? Why were the two so buddy buddy in that story? Co-ordination, kiddos.
    Ends of the Earth happened before Spider-Men, so Mysterio just escaped when Peter went after Otto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    I dunno if I was disappointed with Peter and Gwen interaction, cause I found it enjoyable. The thing with Peter is that for him, his Gwen died around 5 years, probably 6 at that point. So I don't really see him being hung up on her being alive more than her just being happy.
    This is one of those situations where there is no real equivalent, because real people don't have deal with alternate dimensional versions of themselves and their loved ones. With that said, I can't agree with you. Peter has never been depicted as "over" Gwen's death. You can make the argument it would sting less for him when he's married to Mary Jane because then it looks like things worked out ok for him, but as he is now, especially when the opening monologue of the series is about how girls don't even talk to him, seeing the one that you let die is gonna bring a huge emotional reaction. Both out of selfish desire and out of just being overwhelmed at seeing her again. It's still not what I wanted, but I even could have settled for Peter kinda freaking out in his head but calming himself down and not saying anything because in the end it's still not HIS Gwen. But there's...just not much there.


    Honestly, I really thought that scene was better because of OMD. Just because of when he saw Mary Jane, and just realizing everything that happened between Peter and his Mary Jane caused him to hesitate at that moment. Like sure the marriage would made the interaction sweeter, but OMD made it harder for Peter to feel ok. Cause he knew the reasons why MJ broke up with him, and seeing Ultimate MJ in that sort of state just drove that point even closer to him. It became more emotional, because Peter sees another reality where things didn't work out for the two of them, which just makes him frustrated.
    I can't agree with this either. Things didn't "not work out" between Ultimate Peter and Mary Jane. He died. It's...it's really not the same thing. Ignoring for the moment that the reasons presented for their break-up make little sense and are contradictory to earlier stuff, I would argue it's harder to tell her that "yep, we got married so, yeah you kinda missed out on that whole thing" than "he loved you, it wasn't gonna work out, you can move on".

    But, again, either way I don't think it makes sense for him not to follow Mary Jane, whatever their marital status. I think the good guy in him is gonna feel compelled to help her in any way he can. Which, given Bendis' general good handling of the character overall, is why I kind of blame OMD for it. Because there's the conversation he WANTED them to have and the conversation they COULD have, and they didn't match up, so no conversation at all.

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    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    I feel like it needs to be said. Bendis doesn't write Amazing Spider-Man. The actual fall-out of this from Peter's POV was pretty much non-existent after Spider-Men. I guess Slott will reference the story in Spider-Verse in some capacity. "Oh, hey, Miles. How are things?" But other than that...

    (Bendis did confirm he would write a Spider-Men 2.)

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    I stopped collecting any Spider-Man books with the cancellation of Scarlet Spider, though I am planning on getting the Scarlet Spiders Spiderverse Mini.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    This is one of those situations where there is no real equivalent, because real people don't have deal with alternate dimensional versions of themselves and their loved ones. With that said, I can't agree with you. Peter has never been depicted as "over" Gwen's death. You can make the argument it would sting less for him when he's married to Mary Jane because then it looks like things worked out ok for him, but as he is now, especially when the opening monologue of the series is about how girls don't even talk to him, seeing the one that you let die is gonna bring a huge emotional reaction. Both out of selfish desire and out of just being overwhelmed at seeing her again. It's still not what I wanted, but I even could have settled for Peter kinda freaking out in his head but calming himself down and not saying anything because in the end it's still not HIS Gwen. But there's...just not much there.
    Well I didn't mean that Gwen's death still doesn't affect Peter, but more like at that moment in Spider-Men I don't think Peter was hung up on Gwen. When I said the 5 years thing, in that time frame Peter dealt with a clone of Gwen, another clone of Gwen, unknown children of Gwen, and that whole House of M stuff. So really I didn't mind Peter's reaction cause it wasn't his first time seeing another version of Gwen. The fact that Peter was enjoying the time he spent with Gwen just seemed better than Peter and Gwen crying.



    I can't agree with this either. Things didn't "not work out" between Ultimate Peter and Mary Jane. He died. It's...it's really not the same thing. Ignoring for the moment that the reasons presented for their break-up make little sense and are contradictory to earlier stuff, I would argue it's harder to tell her that "yep, we got married so, yeah you kinda missed out on that whole thing" than "he loved you, it wasn't gonna work out, you can move on".

    But, again, either way I don't think it makes sense for him not to follow Mary Jane, whatever their marital status. I think the good guy in him is gonna feel compelled to help her in any way he can. Which, given Bendis' general good handling of the character overall, is why I kind of blame OMD for it. Because there's the conversation he WANTED them to have and the conversation they COULD have, and they didn't match up, so no conversation at all.
    I don't think there was a conversation Bendis could've done that would've made it alright. Earlier when you said you wanted a more emotional reaction from Peter when he met Gwen, didn't work because he's seen way to many other versions of Gwen for it to sting as much. But that was the first time he saw another version of MJ, especially since they aren't together at that point. And considering how Peter still isn't together with his Mary Jane, what on earth could Peter have said to make Ultimate MJ feel any better. Honestly I thought it was really well done from an emotional side, because theres also things to build off of for the sequel if the two meet. Or if Miles meets the 616 MJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I feel like it needs to be said. Bendis doesn't write Amazing Spider-Man. The actual fall-out of this from Peter's POV was pretty much non-existent after Spider-Men. I guess Slott will reference the story in Spider-Verse in some capacity. "Oh, hey, Miles. How are things?" But other than that...

    (Bendis did confirm he would write a Spider-Men 2.)
    I want drama, and Slott doesn't do drama. And what you point out is worth noting. How much latitude Bendis had to work with in Spider-Men was going to be limited by the fact someone else was writing the main book. But yeah, Spider-Verse actually just makes me afraid of all the ways Slott's going to mess it up. Spider-Gwen especially.

    As for Spider-Men 2, I wonder what he's waiting on. I mean, not saying it had to already happen, but I do wonder if he's waiting for the Amazing story to be in a certain place, or the Ultimate Story to be in a certain place. Also, the natural assumption for the sequel is for Miles to visit the 616 universe, but....that seems far less interesting to me than the other way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruran. View Post
    Well I didn't mean that Gwen's death still doesn't affect Peter, but more like at that moment in Spider-Men I don't think Peter was hung up on Gwen. When I said the 5 years thing, in that time frame Peter dealt with a clone of Gwen, another clone of Gwen, unknown children of Gwen, and that whole House of M stuff. So really I didn't mind Peter's reaction cause it wasn't his first time seeing another version of Gwen. The fact that Peter was enjoying the time he spent with Gwen just seemed better than Peter and Gwen crying.
    This...is fair. He has seen other versions of Gwen, though his reaction to seeing all those other versions has been pretty similar (shock and emotional turmoil), it's an excuse for him to take it better. And I'm not saying all I want is crying and holding. I mean, again, impossible, but I know in that situation all I'd want to do (besides, well, you know) is sit there and listen to her talk about whatever. I'm just saying I want some moment of emotional turmoil.



    I don't think there was a conversation Bendis could've done that would've made it alright. Earlier when you said you wanted a more emotional reaction from Peter when he met Gwen, didn't work because he's seen way to many other versions of Gwen for it to sting as much. But that was the first time he saw another version of MJ, especially since they aren't together at that point. And considering how Peter still isn't together with his Mary Jane, what on earth could Peter have said to make Ultimate MJ feel any better. Honestly I thought it was really well done from an emotional side, because theres also things to build off of for the sequel if the two meet. Or if Miles meets the 616 MJ.
    I don't think there's anything he could have said to make it better...but I also think he would have tried. And again, the fact they aren't together is in some small way a comfort. Romantic story lines are about finding "the one", and even in real life we fall for that narrative. It's one of the reasons why OMD doesn't work. But from an in-universe perspective, Peter can use that fact to point out that hey, I wasn't your one, because even when I lived you and I didn't work out. Maybe it wouldn't help, probably it wouldn't help, it certainly wouldn't help in the immediate, but it might be of comfort to her in the future, as she's more likely not to think that that was the one and she missed it.

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