Avengers vs Justice League: Cartoon versions

[Tangent Man]

Crossovers and Voting Events generally aren't held up as examples of canon material regarding character powers and performance in battle.
Remember Wolverine VS Lobo? That's generally the reason.

Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

[Siriel]

I distinctive said in the opening post that everyone is going to be acting in character and people are still talking about everyone pushing themselves to the absolute limits, using tricks they pretty much never used, and going for killing blows.

Only that last one is a relevant complaint.

It's well within Flash or Superman's personality to end a fight the moment it begins at superspeed. Bloostlust can be turned off. PIS cannot. People can and will use their abilities as required.

In character, Superman speed-blitzed Ms. Marvel until she almost vomited! Hey, the MU Handbook treated it as canon, so it's legit here as projective comparison!

Neither crossovers (between different companies) nor handbooks are useable as evidence, actually.

Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

You then descend into the madness of trying to figure out why, of all the various times the multiverse has been threatened/outright retconned out in one of the company's storylines, the other company's multiverse went unaffected.

It simply doesn't add up.

[Pendaran]

Yeah, I already responded to that same example. Marvel Vs. DC based outcomes on fan votes. JLA/Avengers brawls were plotted by a talented writer who wasn't staging an inter-company popularity contest. So please let's get away from "Wolverine Vs. Lobo" as an all-purpose rebuttal when it's quite clear by now that I wouldn't offer it up as a support. That's comparing apples & oranges, and we all know it.

I brought up a scene from a story that Marvel & DC acknowledged after the fact in different publications. I said the question should be revisited, at least in regards to a story in canon, not that bad crossovers should be law. A bit of a difference there.

Access, from Marvel vs DC, appeared in DC proper. So, if your standard is "acknowledged", so was he.

[Tangent Man]

Siriel: the story cited the incredibly tough multiversal barriers separating the two universes and their different natures as reasons they were incompatible. That detail points to why, say, Flashpoint wouldn't impact Marvel.

Regardless, the stunt I mentioned is still within animated Superman's capabilities.

[Acecool]

The biggest threat to the Justice league is Thor and to a lesser degree Ms. Marvel. Hulk is probably the most durable of the lot. It is possible that he will get angry enough that he could become a threat.

Thor has massive damage soak (island dropped on him; vision from space) and was able to hurt Galactus. I don't think anyone on the Justice league showed that they could deal enough damage that they could put down Thor. Flash's attack on Branilex was awesome, but I don't know that it would be enough to put Thor down.

Ms. Marvel was shown to be able to absorb energy and redirect it, again with Galactus. That was a pretty awesome feat.

The justice league has a lot of speed based powers. However, IIRC with the exception of flash, most of that was travel speed. Even Flash in the video was using more travel speed rather than reaction speed.

That being said, I think MM's mental attack is enough to put down the lot of the Avengers. The fact that he can go incorporeal doesn't help the Avengers much. The only showing of resisting mental powers that I can recall was resisting the purple man and they weren't all that successful with that.

[zhris]

If it's in character, bloodlust off, they end up talking.

Pym is ALWAYS trying to talk it out, and Panther doesn't mind. Batman can convince JL to slow up, and then J'onn can mind read them to see they are heroes.

This is why we don't do in character, bloodlust off. Because it ends in talk.

^^This. The JL are going to be curious about some guy dressed up like a walking American flag, and Cap isn't typically a 'shoot first and ask questions later' type.

[seaturkey]

regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

[Guy1]

regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

Not really the place for attacking characters turkey.

[master of read]

regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

and this has what to do with the topic at hand?

[Daenarys Stormborn]

VS



After messing around in another reality, Mr. Mxyzptlk offers to send the Justice League back to earth... he just doesn't specify which Earth.

The Justice find themselves teleported into a city that looks like a disaster hit it. (It was actually the Wrecking Crew, but their long gone now.)

About the same time, the Avengers receive a distress call saying some unknown superteam is tearing up the City.

Each team suspects the other group is the villains. Neither has any clue who the other team is.

Bloodlust is OFF. Characters will remain entirely in character, which includes the fact that characters aren't going to be speedblitzing each other left and right.

The Justice League Line-up consists of

Superman
Batman
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Flash
Wonder Woman

The Avengers are ...
Captain America
Ironman
Thor
Hulk
Black Panther
Wasp
Antman/Giantman
Hawkeye
Ms. Marvel (even if she isn't in the picture)

The Team faces off and after a bit of "Stand down!" "No, YOU stand down!" Hawkeye fires the first arrow... and the fight is ON!

Hulk without bloodlust would just attack. He won't pause to slowly inquire about if these new masked people really laid wasted to everything around him. Once Hulk begins everyone will follow suit. These fights will be more akin to skirmish. Cap and Batman are the ones who would probably still be having a dialogue while they fight. Here, MM is highly unlikely to attempt any kind of mental shutdowns just because. If both sides came to an understanding, IM would probably tell them Hulk's weakness, which would in turn lead to a MM putting down the only real tension between teams .

-Hulk basically solos in a speed usage forbidden scenario where no one is out to kill (namely flash using vibrations or s/w just blitzing). Opening sequence is GL trapping hulk in a bubble, the bubble getting broken, Superman attempting to restrain Hulk, Hulk thunder-clapping, and Hulk smashing Superman until he is satisfied. When Superman is being smashed, WW reacts by jumping him. She'd blitz him even IC non bloodlusted- but she is too weak to put him down. Hulk thunderclaps. The rest of the avengers now move to restraining Hulk because they won't sit back and watch him beat the other side to death. In the end, everyone eventually comes to a sit down to talk things out...

They discover the real criminal was Darkseid and go after him

[Basara]

regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

No they aren't. Bad story not-withstanding (of which every series has), Hawkgirl and GL are not the slightest bit guilty of what their previous ancestral incarnations did.

I just want to point out here that when we say heroes are in character, that just means that none of the characters were not trying to kill the others. We are still assuming that they are fighting to the best of their abilities otherwise. Thus, Superman and Flash will not simply forget they have super-speed and MM will not forget he has telepathy. The Avengers are basically screwed because Jon will put Thor to sleep at the opening bell and he is the only one pretty much capable of defeating the heavy hitters of the League.

[Surtur]

-Hulk basically solos in a speed usage forbidden scenario where no one is out to kill (namely flash using vibrations or s/w just blitzing). Opening sequence is GL trapping hulk in a bubble, the bubble getting broken, Superman attempting to restrain Hulk, Hulk thunder-clapping, and Hulk smashing Superman until he is satisfied. When Superman is being smashed, WW reacts by jumping him. She'd blitz him even IC non bloodlusted- but she is too weak to put him down. Hulk thunderclaps. The rest of the avengers now move to restraining Hulk because they won't sit back and watch him beat the other side to death. In the end, everyone eventually comes to a sit down to talk things out...

Even without speed your scenario for Hulk solo'ing requires every single character to act like an utter moron. What do you think that says about his chances, overall? When he has to depend on not just no speed, but utter stupidity from his opponents?

regardless of who wins, GL stewart and Hawkgirl are bastards. Hawkgirl was married to Hawkman and for only selfish reasons betrayed her husband to screw his best friend. Vile, classless act of betray. Easily the worst "story" of the DCAU, glorifying cheating as if it's somehow romantic.

Well, it has nothing to do with the topic, but she was never married to anyone. She was more or less in a relationship when she went to Earth yes, but not married. Still shady though, not sure why GL ever takes her back. I'd of booted that chick to the curb long ago. Sorry honey, way too many females who don't lie or betray out there for me to settle for one who does, I don't care how big your wings are. I'd let Hawkgirl be someone elses problem, but that is just me. Being a spy is one thing, but part of her mission was not "bang a dude" unless there was a huge mixup in her orders. Or maybe she thought the JLA left a copy of all their weaknesses and flaws in a list under John Stewarts bed or something? Who knows, crazy bird folk and all.

[Slade1]

i also remember a comic where batman beat up spawn.


let that soak for a bit.

In JLA vs X-Men, Bishop was giving J'onn trouble....that's much worse.

[Gorthaur]

The Justice League have a more consistently high power level, with five of the seven members qualifying for the top power tier in either universe, and one mid-level brick with a disproportionately powerful weapon. However, the Avengers make up for it with more members and Thor. Bats is screwed against Cap, Panther and Hawkeye, and Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and Hulk are all strong enough to give a good fight to anyone in the League, and that should be all the chance Thor needs to blow them out of the sky.

[Surtur]

The Justice League have a more consistently high power level, with five of the seven members qualifying for the top power tier in either universe, and one mid-level brick with a disproportionately powerful weapon. However, the Avengers make up for it with more members and Thor. Bats is screwed against Cap, Panther and Hawkeye, and Iron Man, Ms. Marvel and Hulk are all strong enough to give a good fight to anyone in the League, and that should be all the chance Thor needs to blow them out of the sky.

Again, this depends on the "will Flash remember his speed?" debate. If he is remembering it, you might as well not even bother mentioning Captain America, Black Panther, or Hawkeye. Also add someone like Wasp to that list as well. If Hank Pym begins in his normal form and has to switch to either giant or small after the bell, add him to that list as well. Even if you keep Hank off that list, the "more members" thing is gone literally before anyone can do anything.