REVIEW/PREVIEW: Aaron & Dauterman's "Thor" #1 Delivers "An Awesome Surprise"

[ThunderingHammer]

No, "Thor" is the Modern English version of the Norse name Þórr. Also, Odin is the English version of Óðinn. So your logic doesn't really apply here.

Point taken. However that solidifies my point in my post above. First it's a name not a title. Second its Norse, MASCULINE, and means "Thunder". The tranlsaltion to English doesnt change the intended use, origin, or meaning.

[Galerion]

There's only one Thor — I know it, you know it, Marvel knows it, EVERYONE knows it — you don't *become* Thor by picking up Mjollnir, rather you *become imbued with the Thunder God's power*.

Thor is still the God of Thunder, and anyone else holding the hammer is simply someone holding Thor's hammer.

Sigh, this whole "female Thor" idea is just as bad as killing off Wolverine — the true motivation isn't to tell any kind of story, whether it be about gender roles or the concept of worthiness, it's simply a cynical and crass marketing stunt designed to create a ('scuse pun) storm of publicity in order to (it's hoped by Marvel) create a huge spike in sales...

To be fair though Wolverine needed to be killed off. He has been all over the place and was completely butchered as a character in the process.
That many fans agree that the Death of Wolverine by Charles Soule is the best portrayal of him in a long time is a testament to that.

Anyway never have been a big fan of Thor since Im normally more into heroes who have no mighty powers and rely on their training and martial skills.
But this actually has me interested a bit. I will buy the first issue of this and then see if I really want to continue with it or not.

[Betty]

Uh huh. And the name is Nordic. The fact that you put the name in an English context does nothing to erase its intended meaning. Like "Juan" for example. It's still the same when written and pronounced in English from its Spanish version. It's meaning is the same as well. Because you using it in English doesn't erase the fact that it is indeed in Spanish.When you change it to Ivan, then it's under the influences of the language its translated into in terms of writing and pronouncing it, but the intended meaning is still the same. Translation changes names a bit structurally. Using them as they are in a different language does not change anything. It's still male.

Translating a piece of text most definitely does change things. When you translate from Spanish to English you necessarily have to remove gender for it to be correct in English, since English doesn't have gendered nouns. Since the "real" Mjolnir had no inscription in the myths, you can't really argue that the English on the hammer is a shoddy translation; it says whatever its English-speaking creators say it does.

Besides, Norse did to my knowledge have gender-neutral pronouns. Since this is, according to you, translated from Norse, it's equally possible that the "original Norse" used the gender-neutral pronoun and the English translation is using the masculine pronoun in its non-gendered sense.

Point taken. However that solidifies my point in my post above. First it's a name not a title. Second its Norse, MASCULINE, and means "Thunder". The tranlsaltion to English doesnt change the intended use, origin, or meaning.

Yeah, I agree with you here. I'm not liking the use of his name as a title. But that doesn't mean the hammer is limited to men only, which was the main point of the post I was originally responding to. The hammer says that the person who wields it will have the "power of Thor", not that they become Thor. And it certainly doesn't stipulate that the wielder be male.

[Ravin' Ray]

Who is to say some nordic woman wouldnt be named Thor?

In this day and age when parents give their children all sorts of names, and people themselves change their names, it's not unreasonable. Maybe she just likes to claim the name in defiance of tradition and custom.

[Avenger JD]

I'm going to throw my two cents in and say despite the drastic change with the Thor character, I believe that everyone should give this new series a chance given that Jason Aaron proved he can write a wicked run on Thor.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Translating a piece of text most definitely does change things. When you translate from Spanish to English you necessarily have to remove gender for it to be correct in English, since English doesn't have gendered nouns. Since the "real" Mjolnir had no inscription in the myths, you can't really argue that the English on the hammer is a shoddy translation; it says whatever its English-speaking creators say it does.

Besides, Norse did to my knowledge have gender-neutral pronouns. Since this is, according to you, translated from Norse, it's equally possible that the "original Norse" used the gender-neutral pronoun and the English translation is using the masculine pronoun in its non-gendered sense.
Yeah, I agree with you here. I'm not liking the use of his name as a title. But that doesn't mean the hammer is limited to men only, which was the main point of the post I was originally responding to. The hammer says that the person who wields it will have the "power of Thor", not that they become Thor. And it certainly doesn't stipulate that the wielder be male.

But the inscription IS in English and it DOES have a masculine pronoun. It is not "Whosoever holds this hammer, if they be worthy, shall wield the power of Thor", it was he and now it is she, so now can only women lift it? Can Odin, Beta Ray Bill and Steve Rogers no longer lift it? "He" denotes a male, whether a boy or man or even just someone who wishes their gender to be recognised as masculine. I am fairly certain that matters otherwise the inscription wouldn't change to "She", it would change to "They". I think most women who have a feminine gender identity would not appreciate being called "him" or "he" when referred to by someone else.

As for the actual myth, the Marvel Thor is a creation adapted from the myths, the hammer is not the same, he's not got red hair, he doesn't have a son... they are different things, similar and one is based on the other but they are still different.

Thor is his name, it may be written differently in another language but it is pronounced the same way. John's don't become Juans when they go to Spanish speaking countries, Juans don't become Johns when they go to English speaking countries. Their names are their names.

[Betty]

But the inscription IS in English and it DOES have a masculine pronoun. It is not "Whosoever holds this hammer, if they be worthy, shall wield the power of Thor", it was he and now it is she, so now can only women lift it? Can Odin, Beta Ray Bill and Steve Rogers no longer lift it? "He" denotes a male, whether a boy or man or even just someone who wishes their gender to be recognised as masculine. I am fairly certain that matters otherwise the inscription wouldn't change to "She", it would change to "They". I think most women who have a feminine gender identity would not appreciate being called "him" or "he" when referred to by someone else.

Since English has no gender-neutral pronouns that apply in this case, "he" is traditionally used as the gender-neutral option. "They" is also used, but that's honestly a stylistic choice; both work equally well and are equally correct. So no, "he" doesn't necessarily make it for men only. I didn't really love that they made a point of changing it to "she," since the original inscription could be read as gender-neutral and "she" is very specific to women, but I get why they did it.

As for referring to a specific women as "he", that would be wrong, yes, but that's a totally separate issue. A specific man or woman has a given gender (or at least, so the grammar rules presume), but an unknown person doesn't. Since the hammer was not referring to anyone in particular, it's perfectly correct to use "he" and mean "either he or she."

As for the actual myth, the Marvel Thor is a creation adapted from the myths, the hammer is not the same, he's not got red hair, he doesn't have a son... they are different things, similar and one is based on the other but they are still different.

You're making my point, here. I was arguing that Norse grammar rules couldn't be used over English ones because this comic is not Norse.

Thor is his name, it may be written differently in another language but it is pronounced the same way. John's don't become Juans when they go to Spanish speaking countries, Juans don't become Johns when they go to English speaking countries. Their names are their names.

I already agreed with the idea that Thor is a name and not a title. Again, I get what Marvel's trying to do, but unless Thor himself says that nuThor can use his name to carry on his legacy and whatnot, I'm gonna be side-eying that pretty hard... Not a deal-breaker for me, but it does rub me the wrong way.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Since English has no gender-neutral pronouns that apply in this case, "he" is traditionally used as the gender-neutral option. "They" is also used, but that's honestly a stylistic choice; both work equally well and are equally correct. So no, "he" doesn't necessarily make it for men only. I didn't really love that they made a point of changing it to "she," since the original inscription could be read as gender-neutral and "she" is very specific to women, but I get why they did it.

As for referring to a specific women as "he", that would be wrong, yes, but that's a totally separate issue. A specific man or woman has a given gender (or at least, so the grammar rules presume), but an unknown person doesn't. Since the hammer was not referring to anyone in particular, it's perfectly correct to use "he" and mean "either he or she."

You're making my point, here. I was arguing that Norse grammar rules couldn't be used over English ones because this comic is not Norse.

I already agreed with the idea that Thor is a name and not a title. Again, I get what Marvel's trying to do, but unless Thor himself says that nuThor can use his name to carry on his legacy and whatnot, I'm gonna be side-eying that pretty hard... Not a deal-breaker for me, but it does rub me the wrong way.

The original inscription? I posted it up. Kirby drew it as "if he be worthy". As for the idea "he" can apply to women that aren't at the very least male by gender identity if not by born sexuality and chromosomal assignment... if you honestly believe that, I am utterly baffled how you can think that. You're undermining your own point by suggesting "he" can mean "he or she"... so can she also mean he? Or can women be both hims and hers but not men? Because unfortunately the dictionary disagrees with you.

1he pronoun \ˈhē, ē\
: that male

: that person

Full Definition of HE

1
: that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him, his, it, she, they
2
—used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)> <one should do the best he can>

The sex of Thor is male. It was a hammer forged by Odin's command for his son he named Thor. Thor is not a hermaphrodite, he doesn't identify as feminine, Loki calls him brother and Odin calls him son, he's not transgendered... I don't see how this is even arguable. This is like some bizarre logic I'd expect to see on a tumblr blog where someone claims to be pansexual nongendered transnormal.

[SXVA]

It's not her, female Thor and Angela are part of the next team of Avengers they announced earlier this year and Angela is getting her own book anyway.

But Angela is getting her own book. However, I think a lot of people wouldn't have minded Angela.

Angela has her own title coming out soon & there was also this promo art showing them in the same pictur

Oh, okay... guess i can rule that out then. Darn! I like the idea of Angela.

However, if it's true that Female Thor and Angela will be on a team of Avengers, whoooaaaa! Maybe even better. [Depending how this new Thor unfolds]

[ThunderingHammer]

The original inscription? I posted it up. Kirby drew it as "if he be worthy". As for the idea "he" can apply to women that aren't at the very least male by gender identity if not by born sexuality and chromosomal assignment... if you honestly believe that, I am utterly baffled how you can think that. You're undermining your own point by suggesting "he" can mean "he or she"... so can she also mean he? Or can women be both hims and hers but not men? Because unfortunately the dictionary disagrees with you.

1he pronoun \ˈhē, ē\
: that male

: that person

Full Definition of HE

1
: that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him, his, it, she, they
2
—used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)> <one should do the best he can>

The sex of Thor is male. It was a hammer forged by Odin's command for his son he named Thor. Thor is not a hermaphrodite, he doesn't identify as feminine, Loki calls him brother and Odin calls him son, he's not transgendered... I don't see how this is even arguable. This is like some bizarre logic I'd expect to see on a tumblr blog where someone claims to be pansexual nongendered transnormal.

Its pretty clear and simple. betty's argument helps prove that Thor is a name and its masculine. Semantics can be argued til we're blue in the face but the root truth can't be argued: a name, it's origin, and meaning cannot be changed by language translation. The issue here is that OTHERS insist that "Thor" is a title. Since its not, someone else not born Thor Odinson CANNOT be THOR GOD OF THUNDER. The name was created FOR him for Heavens sakes!

I still contend Marvel ordered this. I don't feel this was organic in his storytelling and I did read it. Further, there are no secrets that Odin wouldn't know about that could make his son "unworthy" since he came up with the damn requirements. Aaron, I smell blood in the water......

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Its pretty clear and simple. betty's argument helps prove that Thor is a name and its masculine. Semantics can be argued til we're blue in the face but the root truth can't be argued: a name, it's origin, and meaning cannot be changed by language translation. The issue here is that OTHERS insist that "Thor" is a title. Since its not, someone else not born Thor Odinson CANNOT be THOR GOD OF THUNDER. The name was created FOR him for Heavens sakes!

I still contend Marvel ordered this. I don't feel this was organic in his storytelling and I did read it. Further, there are no secrets that Odin wouldn't know about that could make his son "unworthy" since he came up with the damn requirements. Aaron, I smell blood in the water......

Odin made the enchantment and set the parameters. The idea Nick Fury's gossip surpasses the power of the Asgardian Skyfather who set the parameters and controls them completely is nonsense. The only person that outranked him was murdered by his son when FemLoki ressurected Bor, enchanted and skewed his perception of events and then got murdered by his grandson with the Odinforce. The Odinforce outranked Bor's powers and allowed him to be slain, because three Asgardian lifeforces are stronger than one, and his power allowed him to imprison Cul in Asgardian space.

I get Aaron wrote Original Sin and is writing Thor as long as he wants to but this has been done before with Red Norvell, Eric Masterson, Jake Olsen, Tanarus... substituting Thor is getting old to me. Just write him well and give him worthy opposition to test his limits. Aaron can do it, The God Butcher arc proved that, so this just disappoints me when he's proven capable of doing better with the character.

[Betty]

The original inscription? I posted it up. Kirby drew it as "if he be worthy". As for the idea "he" can apply to women that aren't at the very least male by gender identity if not by born sexuality and chromosomal assignment... if you honestly believe that, I am utterly baffled how you can think that. You're undermining your own point by suggesting "he" can mean "he or she"... so can she also mean he? Or can women be both hims and hers but not men? Because unfortunately the dictionary disagrees with you.

1he pronoun \ˈhē, ē\
: that male

: that person

Purdue University advises the use of "they" as an alternative to "he" in order to avoid offense, thereby acknowledging that use of "he" as grammatically valid, though not preferable:

Because English has no generic singular—or common-sex—pronoun, we have used HE, HIS, and HIM in such expressions as "the student needs HIS pencil." When we constantly personify "the judge," "the critic," "the executive," "the author," and so forth, as male by using the pronoun HE, we are subtly conditioning ourselves against the idea of a female judge, critic, executive, or author. There are several alternative approaches for ending the exclusion of women that results from the pervasive use of masculine pronouns.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/608/06/

This article talks about the origins of "he" as gender-neutral, which goes back to the 18th century.

Here's another article that discusses "he" as a generic pronoun.

And here are two Wikipedia discussing the masculine pronoun for an indeterminate antecedent.

That's just scratching the surface. And if it wasn't enough, here's YOUR definition (emphasis mine, obviously):

Full Definition of HE

1
: that male one who is neither speaker nor hearer <he is my father> — compare him, his, it, she, they
2
—used in a generic sense or when the sex of the person is unspecified <he that hath ears to hear, let him hear — Matthew 11:15(Authorized Version)> <one should do the best he can>

Frankly, I'm baffled that you're baffled...

The sex of Thor is male. It was a hammer forged by Odin's command for his son he named Thor. Thor is not a hermaphrodite, he doesn't identify as feminine, Loki calls him brother and Odin calls him son, he's not transgendered... I don't see how this is even arguable. This is like some bizarre logic I'd expect to see on a tumblr blog where someone claims to be pansexual nongendered transnormal.

Quote where I said Thor was anything but a man. At no point did I argue that Thor was anything other than a man with a man's name. Your point was:

I'm still curious how a woman can be Thor when not only should she be called Thora at the very least but the enchantment on the side of the hammer reads "Whosoever holds this hammer, if HE be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor", so unless this new wielder was born a man or is a fantastic drag queen, a woman shouldn't be able to pick it up. The enchantment and inscription is quite specific about needing to be both a man and worthy.

Clearly, that's not the case.

[Rosebunse]

In this day and age when parents give their children all sorts of names, and people themselves change their names, it's not unreasonable. Maybe she just likes to claim the name in defiance of tradition and custom.

I'm not going to say where we live or anything, but when my mom was working at a doctor's office, there was a kid named Thor. Some parents named their kid Thor. I wish I was making this up.

[PocketfulofKryptonite]

Purdue University advises the use of "they" as an alternative to "he" in order to avoid offense, thereby acknowledging that use of "he" as grammatically valid, though not preferable:



https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/608/06/

This article talks about the origins of "he" as gender-neutral, which goes back to the 18th century.

Here's another article that discusses "he" as a generic pronoun.

And here are two Wikipedia discussing the masculine pronoun for an indeterminate antecedent.

That's just scratching the surface. And if it wasn't enough, here's YOUR definition (emphasis mine, obviously):


Frankly, I'm baffled that you're baffled...

Quote where I said Thor was anything but a man. At no point did I argue that Thor was anything other than a man with a man's name. Your point was:


Clearly, that's not the case.

Clearly, PIS and induced soft reboots are in play.

As for he being gender neutral... come on. Historically men held authority and women were the subjects of their husbands, this is a belief still perpetuated and enforced in the Middle East where arranged marriages exist and are dependent on dowrys and the possible husband approving the marriage to his proposed bride. You want to acknowledge Norse terms but not modern conventions of practised religions... this is ironic to me. Historically men were extensions of women and in the Biblical text they were so literally, man begat woman from a rib. Men created women. Women were traded as assets with dowries involved, feminism through Emmeline Pankhurst didn't come about until the 20th century, until then women were traded as possessions unless born royal so... you proposition ignores all of recorded historyn aside from folks like Cleopatra and monarch born of divine right via descendant blood claims. So, you can argue this position but the weight of history crushes such weak assertions.

As for Purdue University... England invented and revises the English language, America doesn't even use written English since they excise the u from words like behaviour and colour, even though America was originally populated by Native Americans and the MesoAmericans, not the Spanish, Irish, Polish, Dutch or other invading settlers who brought their influence to the contintent. Jewish people don't originate from New York historically.

[Rosebunse]

OK, now you people aren't even talking about comic books! You're discussing the dynamics of American English and the origin of freaking language.