World War Hulk vs Apocalypse

[Anarchist]

I might be wrong, but to speak in Hulk's favour for a change:
Wasn't Hulk seperated from Banner at the time and lacked the ability to increase his strength via rage or something like that?

[The Chou Lives]

Black Star Dragonballs.

I remember that. And I shot that arugement down pretty darn fast.

One of my fav memories of that age.

And I think Apoc would win, as WWH is just, the Hulk, and Apoc written smartly should be able to take him on.

[Pendaran]

I might be wrong, but to speak in Hulk's favour for a change:
Wasn't Hulk seperated from Banner at the time and lacked the ability to increase his strength via rage or something like that?

He was separated from Banner, but while his status as an interdimensional energy nexus as a result (the post Onslaught era was a stupid time), was going to eventually kill him, it was also making him stronger until it did. So.. not really.

[Holacik]

Do you have a feat to support this allegation? If so, please direct your witness to the stand so tha tit can be cross examined.

That's a really funny spot to misfire the use of a space button.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That's a really funny spot to misfire the use of a space button.

Misfire... Riiiiight

[Ptrvc]

The reason he would jump into a Space Toss is that Hulk is kinda predisposed towards berserker rages and acting without forethought because Hulk.

Not to mention that Apocalypse and Not Aquaman are both *incredibly obnoxious*.

Good thing he can rely on their arrogance to force them to engage him in fisticuffs then huh?

You can't have one party act out of character while forcing the other to do stuff in character.

Not to mention the Hulk in all but the most mindless incarnations has shown plenty of ability to strategize when he needs to. Throwing a rubbery super humanoid into a volcano, faking unconsciousness, exhausting a powered up thing, there is plenty of times he's used his cunning to get ahead in a fight.

Technically speaking this fight consists of the Hulk, which defaults to current Doc Green, who is frighteningly intelligent, and an alternative of the Green Scar circa

You seem to be conflating multiple events. Hulk was not having any kind of argument with anything at the time outside of Apocalypse himself, and by "flossing his teeth" you would have to mean that with basically one of his body tendrils, with one hand on it, Apocalypse was restraining the Hulk, by his mouth, who in response could only flail, call out to be let go, and afterwards when Apocalypse did, double over, clutch at his mouth and start coughing for a panel.

Yes, the Hulk had shrapnel in his brain that was making him see and argue with ghosts that at times messed with him and opened him up to being overtaken/screwed with when they happened. He was not having one of those moments with Apocalypse when being held by him. His father did not show up until later in the comic to argue with him as Apocalypse removed the shrapnel.

So.. no, that's basically Apocalypse outmuscling the Hulk, when he's doing that with 1) one hand and 2) a body cable he uses like a rope. If you want to call that a low showing based on the relative strengths of the characters, or overly high for Apocalypse that would be one thing, but what you're doing is.. something else.

http://postimg.org/image/fz5clzqjn/

http://postimg.org/image/cok7deit9/



Not based on what you're saying.



With one hand, and a cable, and the Hulk chokes for a bit after.



Not by anything you're saying. It's not remotely presented that way. You also seem to be trying to have it as many ways as you can/glaringly contradicting yourself with "Hulk was not at his best!" "Hulk would have eventually overpowered him!"



What does that have to do with having overpowered the guy with one hand and a cable? And no, he used his Celestial tech machines generally to dampen the Hulk's regen. He then used a laser to remove the shrapnel.



Not by anything you're saying.



All people who are capable of space tossing someone can do so by grabbing and throwing them if they get even single moment to do so, which fights tend to offer, the Hulk can do this as well, the only difference is the other people can fly back.

The floss thing is a joke referencing the fact that if you wanted to you could add in a funny caption to the panel about Apocalypse being Hulk's dentist because it looks like he's flossing him. Don't read too much into it and try to have a little fun man.

I would say that Apocalypse had the upper hand in the panel true, since we enter the battle in media res we don't really know how long this has been going on or how long. What we do see is that Apocalypse lets go of Hulk as he is starting to get angry. Hulk coughs a bit but if he could talk he could breathe (not that he needs to breathe anymore anyway but I digress.) What we can take from this is that is that Apocalypse is able to get a temporary advantage against a Hulk with a piece of shrapnel in his brain, but was unwilling to press the advantage in favor of cutting him a deal.

I don't see how I contradicted myself. Hulk was not at his best because of the shrapnel, however I maintain that if the battle had continued, Hulk's anger would have allowed him to overpower and beat Poccy down.

I think you misunderstand what said earlier about Hulk sitting and waiting. He's not waiting so he can space toss them he would be staying on the ground and waiting for them to come to him so he can enter into a grapple. Grab ahold and make it a wrestling match. (Well in the case of the Green Scar he'd just whip out one of those swords he always has on him and carve Namor or Poccy up with the shadow forged metal. Apocalypse would be hindered but would regenerate, Namor would just bleed to death.)

Once he's got a grip the Hulk needs to maintain it and do whatever he can to disable them, for Namor that would be relatively easy since he can't regenerate any piece broken/gouged out/bitten off, and Namor needs to breathe so choking should work. Namor can do the same but of course healing factor, and the fact that Hulk's anger at having to fight either of these two should give him the strength advantage of either (normally this stuff is extraneous, but when one characters emotional state determines his strength, the past history matters) and for the World War Hulk fight he was just generally pissed off during that period again strength advantage.

They might be able to shake him off and BFR him, Apocalypse might be able to slip out. I'd wager more than likely that Poccy get's pummeled till he's worn down or too broken to continue, and Namor is left a broken bloody pile for too long. They can play keep away of course, but as long as the Hulk is angry which he will be at the mere sight of either of these two, he'll keep fighting, I'm not too up on Apocalypse's stamina but Namor has to come down some time.

[Pendaran]

I would say that Apocalypse had the upper hand in the panel true, since we enter the battle in media res we don't really know how long this has been going on or how long. What we do see is that Apocalypse lets go of Hulk as he is starting to get angry. Hulk coughs a bit but if he could talk he could breathe (not that he needs to breathe anymore anyway but I digress.) What we can take from this is that is that Apocalypse is able to get a temporary advantage against a Hulk with a piece of shrapnel in his brain, but was unwilling to press the advantage in favor of cutting him a deal.

What we can take from this is with one hand and a tendril he's using like a rope, Apocalypse can restrain the Hulk for any period of time. You would have something for downplaying this if the shrapnel was making him physically weaker at the time of the encounter (nothing indicated this, especially when the Hulk at that point in time is indeed supposed to be stronger than normal or whatever because of post Onslaught energy nexus crap. He was certainly having fits where this would overwhelm him and fuck him up because getting stronger was also killing him, but again, he wasn't having one of those during the bit with Apocalypse), or if this was a normal sort of grapple or.. something. It wasn't. It's the point that he's doing this with that much effort, which is to say, when he's not even using his whole body, or even his other hand, not that much effort. Again, you want to say that Apocalypse not having to especially try that hard to restrain the Hulk like that is the Hulk getting jobbed out, that would be something. The ways you are trying to ignore or downplay it instead do not bear out with what actually happened.

Take the words "the Hulk" out of the equation for the moment as this seems to be where the hangup comes from as far as acknowledging what happened. Person A restrains person B such that all they can do is struggle and flail, and then when released, due to how they were being restrained, choke and double over. Person A is not even using both hands to do this. How does this not show person A as stronger, when they are doing that one handed? Neither, "He could have overpowered him later", nor "It was a temporary advantage" changes what is being shown at that point. I'm aware that you're probably only going to try and say "but he wasn't at his best" instead of actually reply to this, but again, this was not the case, and indeed, if Doctor Strange himself is to be taken seriously, much the opposite as far as the Hulk's physical strength. And considering we're talking about the Hulk being restrained, that is entirely an issue of, the Hulk's physical strength. Even the other people observing the Hulk was in some way vulnerable now were also noting that the Hulk seemed well physically stronger.

I don't see how I contradicted myself. Hulk was not at his best because of the shrapnel, however I maintain that if the battle had continued, Hulk's anger would have allowed him to overpower and beat Poccy down.

Unless you're trying to say that a Hulk even at reduced capacity is more powerful than Apocalypse (which would certainly be interesting, and once again not the case as far as the Hulk's strength specifically, in fact being held up as much the opposite) claiming the Hulk was not at his best and thus it shouldn't count that he was outmuscled, but that the Hulk would have won anyway once again makes no sense as statements to put beside each other.

I think you misunderstand what said earlier about Hulk sitting and waiting. He's not waiting so he can space toss them he would be staying on the ground and waiting for them to come to him so he can enter into a grapple. Grab ahold and make it a wrestling match. (Well in the case of the Green Scar he'd just whip out one of those swords he always has on him and carve Namor or Poccy up with the shadow forged metal. Apocalypse would be hindered but would regenerate, Namor would just bleed to death.)

If someone is strong enough to grab a few hundred pounds to a ton at extreme generous best of weight and throw it into space, then they can grab a few hundred pounds to a ton at extreme generous best of weight and throw it into space. When said someone needs only a single moment to do so, and both parties in a fight are strong enough to do so, it means that any of them can throw the other into space in all of a moment's effort, and something like, you know, the interplay that a fight consists of will offer up these moments to spare. I understand you're trying to ignore that just fine and talk about things that have nothing to do with that. This wouldn't require "a wrestling match", you are basically now trying to claim it would be impossible in a fight for there even to be a single moment where any of these people has their hands on the other guy, and throws, which certainly says something. None of them weigh especially much. Certainly none of them weigh /anything/ on their scale of their respective strengths.

You are at this point claiming "the Hulk will grab them and initiate a grapple. It will be somehow impossible that they grab and throw him first instead. It will be even more impossible that if instead they took this to punching, that any of them as shots fly back and forth would find any moment whatsoever to grab the other guy and throw". That's certainly interesting as far as claims.

I'd wager more than likely that Poccy get's pummeled till he's worn down or too broken to continue

Not based on anything you've said to this point.

and Namor is left a broken bloody pile for too long.

Not based on anything you've said to this point.

They can play keep away of course, but as long as the Hulk is angry which he will be at the mere sight of either of these two, he'll keep fighting, I'm not too up on Apocalypse's stamina but Namor has to come down some time.

Or in battle "everyone can throw each other onto a mystical journey to a faraway land called space and needs very little time or effort to do so", only two of the people who can do that, can also fly. You might at least try "Namor will suffocate before he gets back", but nope.

You know what would be a better argument than any of this? I'll offer it free of charge. "Apocalypse has so few clear strength showings of note that him having overpowered the Hulk is highly dubious to be valid as far as his previous career to that point, his showing against Loki for instance, and is basically the main source of saying he would be strong enough to space toss the guy". Someone more knowledgeable on Apocalypse might roll along and say "no, he also did this, this and this strength wise", but that would be called a debate, as opposed to trying to repeatedly ignore a showing on the most irrelevant of grounds, and otherwise ignore that the solidly class 100 crowd, with their hands even for a moment on a thing that weighs to them, the equivalent of a pebble, can whup that shit into space.

[Cody]

You ever posted on Marvel.com?

Wait wut? Perhaps I am missing something here but... what?

[Cody]

ahhhhh goku vs. the LT was one of the all time epics.

I've seen a few Naruto vs LT threads floating around the Internets recently now that you mention it.

[big_adventure]

Wait wut? Perhaps I am missing something here but... what?

'Thu was talking to a poster who has now been banned.

[Cody]

'Thu was talking to a poster who has now been banned.

Yea I know that. But I am wondering what he meant about "You ever posted on Marvel.com?" thing.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Yea I know that. But I am wondering what he meant about "You ever posted on Marvel.com?" thing.

When Cthulhu was nothing more than a lil tyke, around Shoggoth high, I frequented their forums.

Guy had a startling similar argument to someone I'd known there.

[master of read]

I've seen a few Naruto vs LT threads floating around the Internets recently now that you mention it.

had one of those few years back: itachi vs. the LT.