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  1. #316
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure. It's myth. It has to start suddenly out of thin air?
    Except it doesn't in the case of Bor or Cul. Definitely not Cul, we see him and Odin being born into an already existing world, but even Bor is referenced as being the son of Buri.

    So, if Bor made all the worlds, where did Buri live and where was Bor born? Never mind that we see completely different origin stories in other comics, and who says the Asgardian version is the most correct one.

  2. #317
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Even so, that wouldn't explain the prophecy about his first-born son perishing against the Serpent being at all necessary. Simply locate Cul and take him down directly before he has a chance to do his power-up. If that is not something Odin can do, at least until Cul has reached the heights of his power fed on fear, then functionally speaking Odin is not more powerful.
    There has to be some limiting factor why Odin didn't confront Cul directly, instead of retreat to Asgard space and start building war machines to slaughter humanity. It's like an unspoken understanding between gods that Odin had to let Cul attain full power before Odin could confront Cul. It certainly looked like Odin was dumb to let Cul freely unleash Fear Itself. Odin acted like a beaten man. Was it as simple as the God who had power over humans was in charge, and Cul had poisoned the humans so Cul was in charge?

  3. #318
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Except it doesn't in the case of Bor or Cul. Definitely not Cul, we see him and Odin being born into an already existing world, but even Bor is referenced as being the son of Buri.

    So, if Bor made all the worlds, where did Buri live and where was Bor born? Never mind that we see completely different origin stories in other comics, and who says the Asgardian version is the most correct one.
    Well from that perspective, Buri was the first God, so everything was made by Buri. That puts Odin and Cul 3 runs down from the original Patriach. And yes, we don't know what the real origin story of the Adgardiansmis yet. The Earth X version has them as aliens who made themselves forget what they were, but as to the 616 Asgardians, who knows?

    I just go back to the place where Odin took the Asgardians back to Asgard space in Fear Itself, and Odin caused a planet to begin to form out of thin air and machines and factories just appear. This tells me the supreme Patriach in existence has the power to create the universe he is in. Cul complicates this, because Odin has to assume the position of supreme Patriach over his older brother, and so the creative power becomes somewhat confused? To me, the 10 worlds are malleable, like clay. It's certainly a concept I adhere too, as well. I do believe all matter is the same substance, just arranged in different forms. I'm a chemist so I know how strange that may sound. Its a belief thing, I saw in a moment of inspiration one day. No evidence whatsoever that it is the case, though.

    I believe there is a grey substance outside of our perception, and that it sublimates into matter to be either as grass or humans, for example, etc. How that meshes with the souls of humans or the souls of plants, I am not sure. That would have to be another theory. As a human, you feel you have always existed and that you will always exist. Until someone tells you, no, you only existed since your birth date, and you will stop existing some time in the future. But while you are alive yourself, you don't have that concept.
    Last edited by jackolover; 10-10-2014 at 07:02 PM.

  4. #319
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Well from that perspective, Buri was the first God, so everything was made by Buri. That puts Odin and Cul 3 runs down from the original Patriach. And yes, we don't know what the real origin story of the Adgardiansmis yet. The Earth X version has them as aliens who made themselves forget what they were, but as to the 616 Asgardians, who knows?
    Before Buri, to the extent they're going by the myths, there were already both Ymir and Audumbla present in Ginnungagap, the primordial chaos that existed before the organized Nine Worlds. Audumbla, the cow (wonder if Ymir and Audumbla are the originals for Paul Bunyan and Babe) licked Buri out of a block of ice, and then he goes on to father Bor, and in the comics at least we see Asgard existent before Cul and Odin are born, based on the backstory in Fear Itself, even though in the myths Asgard as a city was founded by Odin and company. The gods did make Midgard in particular from the pieces of Ymir's body, but the origins of the other worlds are unclear in both myth and comics.

    As to the nature of the Asgardians in the MU, the Earth X and MCU aliens thing doesn't really have much purchase in the 616 MU proper, given that in the classic Celestial Fourth Host storyline they're identified as gods associated with Earth and its life forces just like the Olympians and all the other pantheons that they join with in confronting the Celestial Hosts (and getting walled off into their pocket dimensions for the most part). That would imply that whatever their specific mythic stories, all these different pantheons are indeed related to Gaea and the other Elder Gods that roamed the Earth in ancient, pre-dinosaur extinction times, and thereby ultimately derived from the Demiurge, the personification of the Earth's life force. Maybe for the Asgardians, Gaea was originally Audumbla, but then manifested as Jord or Gaea instead to give birth to Thor because as it turned out Odin doesn't possess the same fetishes as Zeus... ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I just go back to the place where Odin took the Asgardians back to Asgard space in Fear Itself, and Odin caused a planet to begin to form out of thin air and machines and factories just appear. This tells me the supreme Patriach in existence has the power to create the universe he is in.
    In his people's pocket dimension, at least. But going by the preponderance of stories told in the MU as a whole, I don't really buy that the MU Asgardians are the ones responsible for creating the Earth or the entire universe that contains it. Not when it contradicts so many other stories concerning Galactus, Sise-Neg, Gaea and the Elder Gods, the Celestials, the Phoenix Force, the other pantheons' particular myths, and on and on. Or even the whole cycle of Ragnaroks thing... if we say that Odin or his dad or granddad really did create the Earth/universe, which one? Certainly not the current one, since we know that Earth existed and the Norse on it worshipped the previous Thor with the red hair and beard. The first one, many cycles ago? But then when did They Who Sit Above In Shadow exist?

  5. #320
    Spectacular Member Charlus's Avatar
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    As a DC fan, this kind of things allows me to jump in. It happened with Superior... and now is happening with Thor... All I knew about Thor comes from the movies, and that was well enough to understand the this book. I loved it, and I think I´ll check the entire Aaron´s run.

    Nevertheless I understand how some die-hard fans might feel about this.
    Last edited by Charlus; 10-11-2014 at 04:52 PM.

  6. #321
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Before Buri, to the extent they're going by the myths, there were already both Ymir and Audumbla present in Ginnungagap, the primordial chaos that existed before the organized Nine Worlds. Audumbla, the cow (wonder if Ymir and Audumbla are the originals for Paul Bunyan and Babe) licked Buri out of a block of ice, and then he goes on to father Bor, and in the comics at least we see Asgard existent before Cul and Odin are born, based on the backstory in Fear Itself, even though in the myths Asgard as a city was founded by Odin and company. The gods did make Midgard in particular from the pieces of Ymir's body, but the origins of the other worlds are unclear in both myth and comics.

    As to the nature of the Asgardians in the MU, the Earth X and MCU aliens thing doesn't really have much purchase in the 616 MU proper, given that in the classic Celestial Fourth Host storyline they're identified as gods associated with Earth and its life forces just like the Olympians and all the other pantheons that they join with in confronting the Celestial Hosts (and getting walled off into their pocket dimensions for the most part). That would imply that whatever their specific mythic stories, all these different pantheons are indeed related to Gaea and the other Elder Gods that roamed the Earth in ancient, pre-dinosaur extinction times, and thereby ultimately derived from the Demiurge, the personification of the Earth's life force. Maybe for the Asgardians, Gaea was originally Audumbla, but then manifested as Jord or Gaea instead to give birth to Thor because as it turned out Odin doesn't possess the same fetishes as Zeus... ;-)



    In his people's pocket dimension, at least. But going by the preponderance of stories told in the MU as a whole, I don't really buy that the MU Asgardians are the ones responsible for creating the Earth or the entire universe that contains it. Not when it contradicts so many other stories concerning Galactus, Sise-Neg, Gaea and the Elder Gods, the Celestials, the Phoenix Force, the other pantheons' particular myths, and on and on. Or even the whole cycle of Ragnaroks thing... if we say that Odin or his dad or granddad really did create the Earth/universe, which one? Certainly not the current one, since we know that Earth existed and the Norse on it worshipped the previous Thor with the red hair and beard. The first one, many cycles ago? But then when did They Who Sit Above In Shadow exist?
    There is certainly something going on in the chaos that existed at the beginning, before Asgard and the 10 worlds existed. As the saying goes, "without form or substance". There was certain intent, for something to emerge from all that. Some sort of purpose had to have arose. Someone must have said, "now let's do something". And it might have been "They who sit above in shadow". They certainly created the Ragnarok cycle, so they must have had a purpose in doing so, that maybe this was the template for how a universe should exist. Rise, big struggle, fall, rinse and start again. Although it's hard to imagine why a universe has to run in cycles like this. The other aspects of Galactus etc are just the maintenance mechanics for upkeep of the universe, much like the Ragnarok cycle.

    The other Elder gods from the other pantheons from Midgard and the Pantheons from all the other alien races in the Universe are reflections of the Asgardian model, in one form or another. The delusion comes when the Asgardians think they are the primal source of the creation of the universe. The Marvel Universe started the Silver Age with the Asgardian version of the creation myths, and that's the one that has traced through to this day, with visits to other pantheons here and there. It is the Viking translation of the creation Myths that the Asgardians find their form and identity.

    So it may be more complicated than just the details of the Asgardian interpretation of the creation myths, here, but it is a good simplification to see it in this form, for all intents and purposes. It may be worthwhile for us to see the formation of the universe in these terms, as the Asgardian gods and their worlds.

    If we do start from that point, that Asgardian gods created the Universe, as Loki explained it to Norman Osborn, after Ymir came the ancestors of Odin and they put together the 10 worlds at one point. They were certainly ther by the time of Odin and Cul, but I couldn't distinguish that anything had congealed together in the Time of Bor, because I saw images of fields and floating asteroids all around. But certainly in the famine, Cul started eating the folks that were living around at the time. I would think the 10 worlds came into existence while Bor was alive with Cul and Odin and the 3 brothers. But somebody had to say, "it's time for a city, and a place to put all the other denizens inhabiting the chaos".

  7. #322
    Junior Member Post Monster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMC005 View Post
    I think that something a lot of people are forgetting is that thor becomes unworthy after learning his Original sin from Fury... not because of malekith. What Fury said to Thor will explain exactly whats going on. Unfortunately we are about 10 issues away from learning what that was.
    And I'm betting is has to do with Balder. The way Marvel loves to reverse Norse mythology, I'm wondering if King Thor kills him, not Loki. I could see this Loki taking the blame so Thor could be king.

  8. #323
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    There is certainly something going on in the chaos that existed at the beginning, before Asgard and the 10 worlds existed. As the saying goes, "without form or substance". There was certain intent, for something to emerge from all that. Some sort of purpose had to have arose. Someone must have said, "now let's do something". And it might have been "They who sit above in shadow". They certainly created the Ragnarok cycle, so they must have had a purpose in doing so, that maybe this was the template for how a universe should exist. Rise, big struggle, fall, rinse and start again. Although it's hard to imagine why a universe has to run in cycles like this. The other aspects of Galactus etc are just the maintenance mechanics for upkeep of the universe, much like the Ragnarok cycle.
    Except you've got the order wrong. The Ragnarok cycle doesn't go anything like the life span of the observable 616 cosmos, it's far, far shorter.... Earth sees the flames of the previous Asgard's destruction at about 1 CE for example, and there are supposed to have been many more cycles within the history of Earth, let alone of the universe dating from the Big Bang. And most guesses for the identities of They Who Sit Above In Shadow have them being pre-Asgardian deities from the Hyborian Age, which would be a mere 10,000 to 40,000 years in the past. Even if the tales of Cul's servitors about having dealt with dinosaurs are true (and it wasn't just a Savage Land thing), that only places their origins back to those ages when we know the Elder Gods like Gaea and Chthon were already around, in addition to suggesting that there were earlier races of humanity that coexisted with dinosaurs, since presumably each iteration of the Nine Worlds had a Midgard that held a race of 'men'. It's also interesting that this would mean that Odin and Cul are brothers, but from completely different cycles millions of years apart, so each without any memories of growing up together with the current version of the other.

    But, yeah, Big Bang is real in the MU, and Odin does not predate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    The other Elder gods from the other pantheons from Midgard and the Pantheons from all the other alien races in the Universe are reflections of the Asgardian model, in one form or another.
    In the MU, the Elder Gods like Gaea and Chthon and Set predate the more human-like pantheons such as the Asgardians and Olympians and so on, and there has never, ever been any true confirmation that the Asgardians are at some entirely different level than Zeus and co, and alien pantheons, as opposed to just being among the most powerful among a bunch of comparable groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    The delusion comes when the Asgardians think they are the primal source of the creation of the universe. The Marvel Universe started the Silver Age with the Asgardian version of the creation myths, and that's the one that has traced through to this day, with visits to other pantheons here and there. It is the Viking translation of the creation Myths that the Asgardians find their form and identity.
    The Marvel Universe has always had other cosmic creation stories, too, though, including all the various versions of Galactus' origin and references to the Big Bang. It's not the case that the Asgardian version has always been primary or the most accepted account. It's just what Big Daddy Odin has said, and there's not much proof other than his own word that he's not been an unreliable narrator all along, whether because he lies or because his own memories are as mythic as opposed to fact-based as those of Zeus or Bast.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    So it may be more complicated than just the details of the Asgardian interpretation of the creation myths, here, but it is a good simplification to see it in this form, for all intents and purposes. It may be worthwhile for us to see the formation of the universe in these terms, as the Asgardian gods and their worlds.

    If we do start from that point, that Asgardian gods created the Universe, as Loki explained it to Norman Osborn, after Ymir came the ancestors of Odin and they put together the 10 worlds at one point. They were certainly ther by the time of Odin and Cul, but I couldn't distinguish that anything had congealed together in the Time of Bor, because I saw images of fields and floating asteroids all around. But certainly in the famine, Cul started eating the folks that were living around at the time. I would think the 10 worlds came into existence while Bor was alive with Cul and Odin and the 3 brothers. But somebody had to say, "it's time for a city, and a place to put all the other denizens inhabiting the chaos".
    Nope. Elder Gods arose on Earth and predate the Asgardians like all the other pantheons.

  9. #324

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    Just finally read it (after getting it on the day it was released... No idea why it took me so long!! ) Really enjoyed it!! Curious as to who picked up the hammer, obviously got to be someone who can breathe in space so possibly another Asgardian... Could it be that it's simply just a female Asgardian we haven't met or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by ROSA13 View Post
    thor is more THAN HIS HAMMER without his hammer he is a crybaby?
    I'd cry in his situation...
    Current favourites: Coffin Bound, She Could Fly, Faithless, Die, Gideon Falls, Ascender, Criminal

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