Optimus Prime in Escaflowne

[Bronze_Age]

Prime does not have a laser weapon but is allowed a sword capable of piercing his opponents.

Scenario 1
Optimus Prime (cartoon, G1) vs the Zaibach guymelefs who attacked Van's village in Escaflowne.
Prime shows up during the attack. How does this change the outcome?

Scenario 2
Optimus Prime (cartoon, G1) vs the Zaibach guymelefs who attacked Van's village in Escaflowne.
Fight is in the arena. They are not permitted invisibility.

Scenario 3
Prime replaces Van and Escaflowne. Can he stop the Zaibach empire?

.

[Guy Smiley]

Prime does not have a laser weapon but is allowed a sword capable of piercing his opponents.

How about an axe?

[Basara]

Scenario 1: I love Optimus Prime, but he's fighting flying invisible mechs that can shoot streams of liquid metal. Prime is good enough to catch one or two off guard before they switch tactics and start long distance attacks on him. He will probably survive the encounter because the other mechs defending the village are there too and the Guymelefs won't be prepared for a Cybertronian as powerful as Prime. The village is still lost though.

Scenario 2: Prime still has to get close to hurt a Guymelef and while Dilandau might be crazy as all heck, he sure as heck is not stupid. His squad of Guymelefs fly out of Optimus' reach and eventually shoot Op to pieces from long range. Prime will make a pretty good fight of it and take down some of the Guymelef's, but there are too many for him, especially with someone as skilled as Dilandau there leading them.

Scenario 3: Prime has no means of detecting invisible Guymelefs. Dilandau and his elite corps of Guymelefs eventually wear down and tear Prime to pieces.

[Bronze_Age]

Scenario 1: I love Optimus Prime, but he's fighting flying invisible mechs that can shoot streams of liquid metal. Prime is good enough to catch one or two off guard before they switch tactics and start long distance attacks on him. He will probably survive the encounter because the other mechs defending the village are there too and the Guymelefs won't be prepared for a Cybertronian as powerful as Prime. The village is still lost though.

Scenario 2: Prime still has to get close to hurt a Guymelef and while Dilandau might be crazy as all heck, he sure as heck is not stupid. His squad of Guymelefs fly out of Optimus' reach and eventually shoot Op to pieces from long range. Prime will make a pretty good fight of it and take down some of the Guymelef's, but there are too many for him, especially with someone as skilled as Dilandau there leading them.

Scenario 3: Prime has no means of detecting invisible Guymelefs. Dilandau and his elite corps of Guymelefs eventually wear down and tear Prime to pieces.

What if Megatron were fighting alongside Prime (assume they will work together)? No cannon, but he gets some sort of melee weapon.

[Basara]

What if Megatron were fighting alongside Prime (assume they will work together)? No cannon, but he gets some sort of melee weapon.

Which would be his energy flail while Prime has his energy ax. Check out the three part episode "More Than Meets the Eye" that starts the Transformers series. It's pretty good.

Now this is a much closer fight. Both Prime and Megatron are absolute beasts that can overcome tremendous odds. On top of that, Megatron can fly. Oh, and you've now given Optimus Prime a long range weapon in Megatron's rifle mode.

Pretty much, scenario 2 now goes to the Cybertronians in a massive stomp as the Guymelefs cannot hide or escape from the fury you've just unleashed on them.

In scenario 1, the town is still destroyed as the Cybertronians still do not have an answer for the invisibility. However, the Guymelefs get a very painful lesson that one should not harm innocents while trying to fly away (Guymelefs lose their invisibility in the air). That's when Prime blasts them to pieces with Megatron's rifle mode.

Scenario 3 is a stomp for the Cybertronians, as Prime now has someone just as powerful as him to watch his back. On top of that, he now gets a very powerful energy weapon too, making any flying Guymelef a practical sitting duck. The only thing the world needs to worry about after the destruction of Zaibach is whether Prime can defeat Megatron afterwards.

[BitVyper]

G1 cartoon Op has pretty high end durability and strength. Is a Guymelef going to be able to hurt him? Hell, Megatron took a magma bath at the end of one episode, and he was fine (and Prime survived the heat of unprotected re-entry too), so molten metal probably isn't going to cut it. Invisi-cloak guys all had to fold back their cloaks to attack too, and Prime can fire a lot more rapidly than they ever did.

For that matter, he does have at least some sensor equipment, so being invisible to the naked eye might not actually be all that effective.

[Basara]

G1 cartoon Op has pretty high end durability and strength. Is a Guymelef going to be able to hurt him? Hell, Megatron took a magma bath at the end of one episode, and he was fine (and Prime survived the heat of unprotected re-entry too), so molten metal probably isn't going to cut it. Invisi-cloak guys all had to fold back their cloaks to attack too, and Prime can fire a lot more rapidly than they ever did.

The metal the Teirings used wasn't molten metal, it's a special type of liquid metal. Think the T-1000 in Terminator 2. We've seen the Zaibach Teiring's fire metal tendrils through Guymelefs of other countries like a hot knife goes through butter, so it's a safe bet that a clean hit can actually hurt Cybertronians. As it is, neither Prime nor Megatron would go down with a single hit or two. It would take many hits to take them down.

Which is why I believe it would take an enitre squad of Teirings hitting Prime armed only with a melee weapon from all sides to eventually wear him down. Prime consistently can not fly (yes, he did in the first episode, but later episodes kept car form Autobots firmly on the ground most of the time) while Teirings can. It would be like Prime facing all the seekers at once armed only with his ax. Eventually, they win because they can hit him and he can't hit them.

Of course, give Prime Megatron in his rifle mode and Prime goes to town. While blasting "The Touch" at maximum volume.

For that matter, he does have at least some sensor equipment, so being invisible to the naked eye might not actually be all that effective.

I don't recall actually seeing that Cybertronians see or hear better than humans, so I'm still betting the Teirings are invisible to them too. Of course, if this is not true and Prime and Megatron can detect the Teirings in their cloaks, the fight at the village becomes a blood bath for the Cybertronians as the Teirings have no idea what hit them.

[Yeoman]

Scenario 1: I love Optimus Prime, but he's fighting flying invisible mechs that can shoot streams of liquid metal.

IIRC, the only models that could Fly while invisible were Dilandau and Jajuka's prototypes. And Maybe the Catgirl twins. Similarly, I don't recall any of them, save maaaaaaaaaaaybe the Catgirl's being able to fire while completely cloaked. They had to make an opening to fire out of by and large.

And, really, none of that is even a remote threat to G1 Toon Prime, who is only vaguely bothered by being hit by the Nemesis' ship to ship weapons.

Further, the Mecha of Escaflone weren't exactly invulnerable super mecha, so being able to punch through their armor isn't saying a lot. Balgus was capable of killing a Zaibach Guymelef with his Zweiheinder while on foot.

Honestly, this could be Zaibach's most elite troops in the prototypes from the end of the series and I wouldn't give them great odds against nearly any version of prime. Much less the single most powerful version.

[Basara]

IIRC, the only models that could Fly while invisible were Dilandau and Jajuka's prototypes. And Maybe the Catgirl twins. Similarly, I don't recall any of them, save maaaaaaaaaaaybe the Catgirl's being able to fire while completely cloaked. They had to make an opening to fire out of by and large.

Which is a matter of a couple of seconds, which is all they need in an ambush. It's a scenario situation here, not the arena. Also, it's hard to defend when you are surrounded by invisible foes striking from all sides.

And, really, none of that is even a remote threat to G1 Toon Prime, who is only vaguely bothered by being hit by the Nemesis' ship to ship weapons.

Only once has Prime taken a hit by a ship to ship weapon and fallen from orbit. This is a high end feat that has never been replicated and is not consistent with Prime's actual durability. Consistently, Prime has been damaged by an explosion that rolled him down a hill ("MTMTE part 2 and 3"), severly damaged by exploding computer banks ("Divide and Conquer"), knocked out by Laserbeak knocking him off a cliff ("A Prime Problem"), stunned by a fall through a hole long enough for Megatron to disable him ("City of Steel"), and been pierced by a piece of metal thrown by Megatron (TF: TM). He isn't super invulneable either. You're right, the first few hits of liquid metal likely aren't taking Prime down. The 20th hit? That's probably hurting Prime a lot.

Honestly, this could be Zaibach's most elite troops in the prototypes from the end of the series and I wouldn't give them great odds against nearly any version of prime. Much less the single most powerful version.

G1 Optimus Prime is far from the most powerful version of Optimus Prime, just the most memorable.

And I've stated my belief that the Zaibach mechs have no chance against Optimus Prime armed with his rifle or Megatron. However, given that they can fly and there are a good number of them in Dilandau's squad, they can wear Prime down because he cannot reach them while they can fire on him indiscriminately.

[Yeoman]

Which is a matter of a couple of seconds, which is all they need in an ambush. It's a scenario situation here, not the arena. Also, it's hard to defend when you are surrounded by invisible foes striking from all sides.



Only once has Prime taken a hit by a ship to ship weapon and fallen from orbit. This is a high end feat that has never been replicated and is not consistent with Prime's actual durability. Consistently, Prime has been damaged by an explosion that rolled him down a hill ("MTMTE part 2 and 3"), severly damaged by exploding computer banks ("Divide and Conquer"), knocked out by Laserbeak knocking him off a cliff ("A Prime Problem"), stunned by a fall through a hole long enough for Megatron to disable him ("City of Steel"), and been pierced by a piece of metal thrown by Megatron (TF: TM). He isn't super invulneable either. You're right, the first few hits of liquid metal likely aren't taking Prime down. The 20th hit? That's probably hurting Prime a lot.



G1 Optimus Prime is far from the most powerful version of Optimus Prime, just the most memorable.

And I've stated my belief that the Zaibach mechs have no chance against Optimus Prime armed with his rifle or Megatron. However, given that they can fly and there are a good number of them in Dilandau's squad, they can wear Prime down because he cannot reach them while they can fire on him indiscriminately.

So... in your scenario... Optimus Prime is going to stand there like a goon and take shot after shot instead of trialing the incredibly obvious trails of metal to their points of origin. Because in order to gain any sort of range or power most commonly the Alseidies needed to create one long stream rather than a single spear.

And let's remember, your listed feats are by far his low end showings, not his mid grade ones. Which are: Regularly engage the most powerful of the non-gestalt Decepticons in hand to hand.


Also? That thrown piece of metal? Was where Prime was already injured. In a movie where character shields on anyone without toys on the shelves were off, given Brawn was shot in the shoulder and immediately died not fifteen minutes earlier. So that's a non-feat.

[BitVyper]

For that matter, the low end feats that you're cherry picking for Prime are not so much low end as they are feats for the guy who hit him. Prime once lifted and threw a fully loaded oil tanker (twice, actually), and Megatron was regularly portrayed as roughly equal in strength to him, which is the context these showings actually happen in. Absolutely nothing I can think of in Escaflowne is capable of dishing out class 90-100 level power.

Edit: Also Megatron was able to push the same tanker around with ease. I forgot that part. Also he took the entire tanker to his face when Prime threw it. Plus I forgot that the tanker itself was flooded at that point, so it would have been significantly heavier. At the smallest possible size of oil tanker, that would be around 100000 metric tonnes, not counting the water. This could range up to nearly a million with the largest tankers. Megatron and Op both handled it fairly easily, particularly Op, since he threw the thing.

Edit: Of course this is all ignoring the ten times an episode where they'd all get hit by missile/beam/whatever spam and be perfectly fine. Hell, the Insecticons had to spawn a small army to put together enough firepower just to knock Jetfire down. And from the same episode, Prime tunnels through a mountain by just driving into it because he was tired of waiting for one of his subordinates to get the digging done.

[Basara]

So... in your scenario... Optimus Prime is going to stand there like a goon and take shot after shot instead of trialing the incredibly obvious trails of metal to their points of origin. Because in order to gain any sort of range or power most commonly the Alseidies needed to create one long stream rather than a single spear.

No, he's not going to stand there. Neither are the Teigens. You're assuming Prime can run or drive fast enough to catch Teigens that can actually launch and fly pretty fast. They are extremely quick.

There are also more of them. Prime could catch maybe one or two. He'll never catch a full squad hunting him without a gun, especially if they are keeping him off guard trying to avoid attacks from multiple positions. To be honest, I'm not sure even Prime can touch Dilandau standing in front of him. Prime is tough, but he has never demonstrated melee speed and skill on the level of Allen, Van, or Dilandau.

And let's remember, your listed feats are by far his low end showings, not his mid grade ones. Which are: Regularly engage the most powerful of the non-gestalt Decepticons in hand to hand.

Also? That thrown piece of metal? Was where Prime was already injured. In a movie where character shields on anyone without toys on the shelves were off, given Brawn was shot in the shoulder and immediately died not fifteen minutes earlier. So that's a non-feat.

Let's face it, Prime's durability feats are all over the place and he actually has as many low end feats as high ones. I err on him being a lot more durable than your average Guymelef, but still not invulnerable to a weapon that treats average Guymelefs like a Dinobot electro-scimitar treats a wet paper bag (or an insecticon ).

Scenario 1 and 3 don't change. Either the Teigen's have the ability to eventually hurt Prime and they hammer him until he falls to sheer numbers, or they don't have this ability and they run away when Prime rips through one or two like nothing when he finally catches one and just distract him for the rest of the series. Both results led to a destroyed village and to the Zaibach emperor achieving his goal because Prime isn't an Atlantean capable of reversing what Dornkirk can do like Van was.

Scenario 2 is a long drawn out affair one way or the other, depending on the Teigens ability to hurt Prime. If they can, they win. If they can't, Prime wins.

[Yeoman]

No, he's not going to stand there. Neither are the Teigens. You're assuming Prime can run or drive fast enough to catch Teigens that can actually launch and fly pretty fast. They are extremely quick.

As I said, only the advanced models can fly while cloaked. And Prime has an Altmode that can drive to South America in under a day.

[quote]Prime is tough, but he has never demonstrated melee speed and skill on the level of Allen, Van, or Dilandau.[quote]

Speed Maybe not. Skilled? Dude is in melee all the time and does fine. Heck, IIRC he was avoiding blows from Megatron while fighting on the confined (for him anyway) area of Sherman Dam.

Let's face it, Prime's durability feats are all over the place and he actually has as many low end feats as high ones.

Except his average feat, the one he repeats every second or third appearance, is: Engage Megatron in hand to hand. Megatron, who is as strong, if not stronger, than Prime. Both of whom have some pretty insane strength feats.


Also, all of these fights are scenarios from the second episode. Meaning they have the less advanced Alsiedies Guymelefs. Which, as I noted, are not shown flying while cloaked. And while it's been a while since I watched the series, ISTR that was actually a plot point once.

[Basara]

As I said, only the advanced models can fly while cloaked. And Prime has an Altmode that can drive to South America in under a day.

I've always acknowledged that the Teigens cannot cloak while flying. That's why I said Prime would slaughter the Teigen's flying away from the village when armed with Megatron.

The point always was that the flight speed of the Teigens could keep them out of Prime's range while they strike with impunity. That's why I said this fight was like all the Decepticon seekers against an unarmed Prime.

Speed Maybe not. Skilled? Dude is in melee all the time and does fine. Heck, IIRC he was avoiding blows from Megatron while fighting on the confined (for him anyway) area of Sherman Dam.

Prime is good at melee, but Allen, Van, and Dilandau are great at it. It's like Ben Grimm trying to hit Iron Fist. Ben is also a skilled hth fighter and can turn Iron Fist to paste with a single hit, but it's going to be a long time before he lands that single hit because Iron Fist is that much better at hth than Ben.

Except his average feat, the one he repeats every second or third appearance, is: Engage Megatron in hand to hand. Megatron, who is as strong, if not stronger, than Prime. Both of whom have some pretty insane strength feats.

There is that. Heroes are defined by their adversaries and Megatron is a flat out beast whom could match Prime in all areas except courage. Perhaps you are correct that the Teigens cannot hurt Prime.

Also, I must turn in my Transformers rabid fan card for forgetting about the Matrix of Leadership, which would likely reverse any effect Dornkirk unleashes on the world with ease. I mean, it did destroy Unicron and cure a galaxy wide hate plague. Reversing fate for a single planet should be child's play for it.

So, sceanario 1 ends with a destroyed village (because not even Prime can be everywhere at once), scenario 2 ends with scrapped Teigens after about an hour of Prime chasing them around, and scenario 3 ends with Dornkirk acknowledging Prime's awesomeness as "The Touch" blares over the wreckage of his busted fate machine.

[Yeoman]

So, sceanario 1 ends with a destroyed village (because not even Prime can be everywhere at once),

He doesn't really need to be. They were only there for Escaflowne, and only rampaged through the town to get to the castle. Which they couldn't get to invisibly due to the size of their mecha and not being able to fly cloaked. Once Van poofed off they went as well. So, really, he just needs to get to them.