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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    Um, no. When do sales numbers ever stand still? A new creative team, especially one with a big name talent like Finch on art, always gets a sales boost from retailers. There's no real way to see how many new fans are continuing, how old many fans jump back on board, how many fans try it for the first time due to the new creative team, how many copies sit on shelves unsold, etc etc. Way too many variables, and too little info, especially given that it's only one issue. Were there any incentive variant covers?
    Oh, I'd agree that there are too many variables for us to know for sure. But at least a couple of posters on the forum (not you) have advanced the argument, in the last month or two, that if the Finches' numbers go down it would be because Azzarello's fans didn't give the new team a chance. I wanted to point out that by the logic of those posters, it would seem that perhaps Azzarello's fans may have given the new team a chance. There were those poised to blame Azz if the numbers went down, so it seemed only fair that someone, at least, should give him a share of the credit now that the numbers went up. Even if it might conceivably be a little bit of a stretch.

    I have a thought about your clay Hippolyta example of "bad hand-off," but my thought is related (in an indirect, non-obvious and speculative way) to the the spoiler for tomorrow that's circulating, so I'd better not talk about it until tomorrow.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 12-16-2014 at 07:08 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Oh, I agree that if they go and read back issues of previous WW runs, that definitely counts but if they only like Azz's interpretation of the character, I'm not sold.
    for me is more than enough. You didn't bought all azz run, why would another fan go through all the Finches run?
    sometimes happen to fans like one interpretation more than another, that is fine.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Oh, I'd agree that there are too many variables for us to know for sure. But at least a couple of posters on the forum (not you) have advanced the argument, in the last month or two, that if the Finches' numbers go down it would be because Azzarello's fans didn't give the new team a chance. I wanted to point out that by the logic of those posters, it would seem that perhaps Azzarello's fans may have given the new team a chance. There were those poised to blame Azz if the numbers went down, so it seemed only fair that someone, at least, should give him a share of the credit now that the numbers went up. Even if it might conceivably be a little bit of a stretch.
    I don't think I really follow your reasoning. It don't think it's fair to give Azzarello all the blame if Azzarello-WW fans don't continue to read WW. But why would numbers go up due to Azzarello and co? If readers stayed to the end of Azzarello's run, then sales to readers would stay the same. Any new/returning readers - the upside - would be people who did not read or stay to the end of Azzarello's run.

    Of course, Azzarello and co deserve credit for a generally well-received run that brought more attention (good or bad) to WW and a foundation of fairly consistent good sales, sales above the trend for WW. But a sales bump after they leave doesn't seem like it would be a credit to them.

    So, yes, it's a stretch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I have a thought about your clay Hippolyta example of "bad hand-off," but my thought is related (in an indirect, non-obvious and speculative way) to the the spoiler for tomorrow that's circulating, so I'd better not talk about it until tomorrow.
    I'm not sure I'd really call it "bad," at least, that's not my final answer. Still too early. But it does feel like an awkward hand-off so far, imo. My guess would be that any conversations to coordinate happened some time ago, but, imo, it doesn't feel like they are are the same page. So, I do think the 'blame,' if there is any, for the transition can be partially Azzarello's, and that type of effect can hurt the next creative team. Simone's run is a good example of this (in my book).
    Last edited by Awonder; 12-16-2014 at 07:45 PM.

  4. #79
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    for me is more than enough. You didn't bought all azz run, why would another fan go through all the Finches run?
    sometimes happen to fans like one interpretation more than another, that is fine.


    You're right, I didn't read Azz's entire run but I gave it much more than one issue. I bought issues 1 thru 5 dropped the book then gave it a 2nd chance with issue #14 and dropped it again plus I've been reading Wonder Woman for over 25 years. Not liking an occasional run along the way doesn't diminish one's status as a fan plus I read Superman/Wonder Woman, Sensation Comics, and plan on reading Wonder Woman '77 as well.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    You're right, I didn't read Azz's entire run but I gave it much more than one issue. I bought issues 1 thru 5 dropped the book then gave it a 2nd chance with issue #14 and dropped it again plus I've been reading Wonder Woman for over 25 years. Not liking an occasional run along the way doesn't diminish one's status as a fan plus I read Superman/Wonder Woman, Sensation Comics, and plan on reading Wonder Woman '77 as well.
    Yet you admit you didn't give Azzarello the same courtesy you expect people to give Finch, read the first 6 issues to make a judgement, and you openly doubt someone can be a fan of the character if they only read one writers run. I'd say reading nearly 40 issues of material, regardless of who wrote it, qualifies someone as a fan.

    Not sticking with the book because of what Finch is doing doesn't shock me since the tone of the character, the art, and the focus of the story has dramatically changed, all in a single issue. These changes are very unlikely to be appealing to a fan who came in following Azzarello, that doesn't mean they won't come back to WW should a writer more inline with their taste were to be assigned to the book. I've been reading her for so long I lose track of who wrote what arcs, that doesn't make me a "better" fan than a newer reader, and liking Azzarello certainly doesn't make me less of a WW purist.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awonder View Post
    I don't think I really follow your reasoning. It don't think it's fair to give Azzarello all the blame if Azzarello-WW fans don't continue to read WW.
    I'm not surprised that you don't, but some people do, judging by some recent posts about how Azz didn't bring readers who would consider staying with the book, and therefore didn't contribute to building the readership after he left. They were basically getting ready to blame him for a sales plunge after he left. Now that the plunge didn't happen, can't I give them a hard time without you giving me a hard time? (OK, I know I can't; it was a rhetorical question. )

    But why would numbers go up due to Azzarello and co? If readers stayed to the end of Azzarello's run, then sales to readers would stay the same. Any new/returning readers - the upside - would be people who did not read or stay to the end of Azzarello's run.
    New/returning readers + Azz's readers > new/returning readers + 0 (which is what we'd get if Azz's new readers were only here for him, learned no real appreciation of the character, and left immediately along with him, as some have suggested would be the case).
    Last edited by Silvanus; 12-16-2014 at 09:25 PM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm not surprised that you don't, but some people do, judging by some recent posts about how Azz didn't bring readers who would consider staying with the book, and therefore didn't contribute to building the readership after he left. They were basically getting ready to blame him for a sales plunge after he left. Now that the plunge didn't happen, can't I give them a hard time without you giving me a hard time? (OK, I know I can't; it was a rhetorical question. )



    New/returning readers + Azz's readers > new/returning readers + 0 (which is what we'd get if Azz's new readers were only here for him, learned no real appreciation of the character, and left immediately along with him, as some have suggested would be the case).
    Agreed! Azzarello obviously brought in a fan base, it's unrealistic to believe that his departure would cause a huge drop in the books readership. There wil be at least part of this readership who will continue to read because they've become WW fans. Finch's increase in numbers just as obviously reflects HIS fan base following him over to see if WW is to their liking. I hope they stick around and make this new run a success ... Even if it's not to my taste in its early going I want to see WW continue to succeed.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm not surprised that you don't, but some people do, judging by some recent posts about how Azz didn't bring readers who would consider staying with the book, and therefore didn't contribute to building the readership after he left. They were basically getting ready to blame him for a sales plunge after he left. Now that the plunge didn't happen, can't I give them a hard time without you giving me a hard time? (OK, I know I can't; it was a rhetorical question. )



    New/returning readers + Azz's readers > new/returning readers + 0 (which is what we'd get if Azz's new readers were only here for him, learned no real appreciation of the character, and left immediately along with him, as some have suggested would be the case).
    Have you known me to be against hard times? But as a Zoom to your Flash, I want you to be on top of your game. Your logic and math here is flawed simply because there are too many variables and not enough info. It's possible that every new WW fan that Azzarello and co brought in dropped the book, but that the retailers felt David Finch would bring in even more fans. It's also possible that every new fan will give this new run a fair shot for a couple of issues.

    I have seen a few fans say they were dropping it without giving the new creative team a try, but what percentage of the readership do they reflect? There's no way to even come close to proving it either way.
    Last edited by Awonder; 12-16-2014 at 10:30 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    Not sticking with the book because of what Finch is doing doesn't shock me since the tone of the character, the art, and the focus of the story has dramatically changed, all in a single issue. These changes are very unlikely to be appealing to a fan who came in following Azzarello, that doesn't mean they won't come back to WW should a writer more inline with their taste were to be assigned to the book. I've been reading her for so long I lose track of who wrote what arcs, that doesn't make me a "better" fan than a newer reader, and liking Azzarello certainly doesn't make me less of a WW purist.
    It seems like some folks are also discounting the context that the creative shift is taking place in. Based on the mess that I think the "New52" DCU is, the fact that the Brian/Cliff run insulated Wonder Woman from that universe was the run's greatest strength.

    I can't imagine that I am the only reader on Earth who feels that way.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    It seems like some folks are also discounting the context that the creative shift is taking place in. Based on the mess that I think the "New52" DCU is, the fact that the Brian/Cliff run insulated Wonder Woman from that universe was the run's greatest strength.

    I can't imagine that I am the only reader on Earth who feels that way.
    Not at all ... I'm right there with you.

  11. #86
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Guys?

    This thread is for the sales numbers of Wonder Woman's title.

    Let's take this chating somewhere else, please.
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  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius View Post
    Yet you admit you didn't give Azzarello the same courtesy you expect people to give Finch, read the first 6 issues to make a judgement, and you openly doubt someone can be a fan of the character if they only read one writers run. I'd say reading nearly 40 issues of material, regardless of who wrote it, qualifies someone as a fan.

    Not sticking with the book because of what Finch is doing doesn't shock me since the tone of the character, the art, and the focus of the story has dramatically changed, all in a single issue. These changes are very unlikely to be appealing to a fan who came in following Azzarello, that doesn't mean they won't come back to WW should a writer more inline with their taste were to be assigned to the book. I've been reading her for so long I lose track of who wrote what arcs, that doesn't make me a "better" fan than a newer reader, and liking Azzarello certainly doesn't make me less of a WW purist.

    I don't think you understand my POV here. I don't think reading one issue of a new run is really giving a new creative team a chance. I think a minimum of three issues is fair. As for the new readers that came in with Azzarello, they don't necessarily have to like the Finchs' take on Wonder Woman but if they also aren't reading Superman/Wonder Woman, Sensation Comics, and they don't plan on picking up Wonder Woman '77, I have to wonder who else they would read Wonder Woman under besides Azzarello.


    ***I saw the mod warning after I posted this. Feel free to edit, delete, or whatever......
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  13. #88
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    Dropped to 43.000 in it's second month of the new run. I'm not sure what percentage drop that is but it's a huge plummet.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbshabo View Post
    Dropped to 43.000 in it's second month of the new run. I'm not sure what percentage drop that is but it's a huge plummet.
    how do you know this? the numbers for december are out?

  15. #90
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Major drop offs are expected from the first to second issue of any new creative team.

    Question is whether or not it will continue dropping or will settle back at Azzarello sales-level.

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