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  1. #181
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Forgive me if I'm frustrated by all of the negative Finch comments around here that started since the couple was announced on the book. How many folks around here(whether they started out with a positive or negative outlook) changed their minds once they actually read several issues of the Finchs' run? Plus, may I remind you these critics are some of the same ones who never read Wonder Woman before Azz's run yet later said Azz's run was the best WW run ever. I don't really think critics matter any more after that debacle.
    I was a critic of Azz's run, though I didn't hate it (just aspects of it) and I was looking forward to a change of pace.

    However, I have found Meredith's writing to be poor quality, and David's artwork to be uneven (though improving). I find very little that I like at all about the current run, whereas with Azz there were at least things that I liked. I've been very disappointed with the Finch's, and I'm not surprised to see a 20% drop following their first story.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Forgive me if I'm frustrated by all of the negative Finch comments around here that started since the couple was announced on the book. How many folks around here(whether they started out with a positive or negative outlook) changed their minds once they actually read several issues of the Finchs' run?
    I did, sort of. I didn't form a strong opinion one way or another before the run started, but I did check out Finch's Oz book, and I thought it was alright. And I found some of their early comments fairly encouraging, snce they seemed to want to follow up on some of what I liked about Azz's run. So my expectations weren't as low as my opinion of the actual run has turned out to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Finchs' run is perfect but I do think it's much better than the 2 runs that came before it. At the very least, I feel like I'm reading an actual Wonder Woman book again.

    I am curious though, if sales continue to wain on the book, will DC risk giving Meredith her pink slip knowing they could lose David too?
    They could always assign her to a different book. I think that if the sales slip below 30k, or seemt o be heading rapidly in that direction, Dacid Finch might not take a change too personally; he's been a round the industry a good while and understands how it woks.

  3. #183
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I did, sort of. I didn't form a strong opinion one way or another before the run started, but I did check out Finch's Oz book, and I thought it was alright. And I found some of their early comments fairly encouraging, snce they seemed to want to follow up on some of what I liked about Azz's run. So my expectations weren't as low as my opinion of the actual run has turned out to be.



    They could always assign her to a different book. I think that if the sales slip below 30k, or seemt o be heading rapidly in that direction, Dacid Finch might not take a change too personally; he's been a round the industry a good while and understands how it woks.

    Yes, but I don't think this is a stretch for me to say that you absolutely loved Azz's run and you've mentioned that you don't feel that the Finchs are following up on it properly.

    Granted, the final design of the new costume(while probably editorially mandated), falls on David, but the majority of critics have been against the Finchs(mostly because Meredith is a brand new writer and some classify David's art as overly sexualized) since day one and it seems that the group think around here for Wonder Woman over the last 4 years has coincided with majority of critics. Is this really just a common opinion or are people allowing themselves to fall into the same mindset as the critics?
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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Finchs' run is perfect but I do think it's much better than the 2 runs that came before it. At the very least, I feel like I'm reading an actual Wonder Woman book again.

    I am curious though, if sales continue to wain on the book, will DC risk giving Meredith her pink slip knowing they could lose David too?
    I know that a new creative team is on the works, just need patience to announce it. DC has to stop treating artists like they are the most important thing on comics.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Yes, but I don't think this is a stretch for me to say that you absolutely loved Azz's run and you've mentioned that you don't feel that the Finchs are following up on it properly.
    Sure. They have been following up (dealing with the consequences of male Amazons on PI, starting to address the god of war role, etc.) but I think they're been following up in ways that are dull, regressive, and generally less constructive than destructive of what Azz and others built. (By the way, even Aegeus seems to be a diminishment rather than constructive followup on past writers' work; this shallow whiner seems a lot less interesting than the old ecoterrorist could have been.) If they were doing something completely different but doing it well, I'd be happier. Naturally, if they were following up successfully, I'd be happiest of all.

    Granted, the final design of the new costume(while probably editorially mandated), falls on David, but the majority of critics have been against the Finchs(mostly because Meredith is a brand new writer
    I don't think it's mostly because she's a new writer; I think it's more because she's a bad writer--IMO, of course, and just as far as this book is concerned. Like I said, I didn't think her work on the Oz book was bad. But her writing here has struck me as cliched, banal, weak in character development and plot development, often incoherent, and just generally lacking in craft. Of course, as a new writer, she could grow and improve, and I hope she does; but that possibility hasn't added to my enjoyment of what we're getting now.

    Is this really just a common opinion or are people allowing themselves to fall into the same mindset as the critics?
    What would make you think it's not a genuinely common opinion here ? It seems to me that each issue, including the first, has started drawing negative comments here even before reviews have started to appear elsewhere. We don't seem to be waiting for the critics' lead.

    Anyway, it's not like critics are alien beings. They're just comics fans who have blogs or jobs with websites. They're not necessarily unlike the people who post here. If they and we share opinions, it's not necessarily a question of either influence or coincidence; maybe it's just that many readers, whether they are published "critics" or not, share similar criteria (which the book happens not to be meeting.) It's not "group think" if a lot of us are independently reaching similar conclusions; that's called a consensus.

    I actually think that critics and posters have given the book a reasonably fair shot, at least by the standards of the internet. Take Tim Hanley, for instance; he absolutely hated the first issues and most of what followed, but he was more than willing to acknowledge that the annual, in his view, was not that bad. But unfortunately, the next issues disappointed him again. Similarly, I though I might be seeing a tiny bit of improvement in the writing even before the annual, but I haven't seen it continue in this new arc, Lots of us have acknowledged some improvement in the art--but, for me, that this doesn't make up for the writing.

    I'm almost jealous of you; generally, I think it's more fun to be a non-conformist and maverick. That's why it was fun to defend issue #7. But, when it comes to the current run, I can't help it if a lot of people are right. I'm not going to change my opinion so that I can be a non-conformist.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 08-12-2015 at 07:13 AM.

  6. #186
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    Sure. They have been following up (dealing with the consequences of male Amazons on PI, starting to address the god of war role, etc.) but I think they're been following up in ways that are dull, regressive, and generally less constructive than destructive of what Azz and others built. (By the way, even Aegeus seems to be a diminishment rather than constructive followup on past writers' work; this shallow whiner seems a lot less interesting than the old ecoterrorist could have been.) If they were doing something completely different but doing it well, I'd be happier. Naturally, if they were following up successfully, I'd be happiest of all.



    I don't think it's mostly because she's a new writer; I think it's more because she's a bad writer--IMO, of course, and just as far as this book is concerned. Like I said, I didn't think her work on the Oz book was bad. But her writing here has struck me as cliched, banal, weak in character development and plot development, often incoherent, and just generally lacking in craft. Of course, as a new writer, she could grow and improve, and I hope she does; but that possibility hasn't added to my enjoyment of what we're getting now.



    What would make you think it's not a genuinely common opinion here ? It seems to me that each issue, including the first, has started drawing negative comments here even before reviews have started to appear elsewhere. We don't seem to be waiting for the critics' lead.

    Anyway, it's not like critics are alien beings. They're just comics fans who have blogs or jobs with websites. They're not necessarily unlike the people who post here. If they and we share opinions, it's not necessarily a question of either influence or coincidence; maybe it's just that many readers, whether they are published "critics" or not, share similar criteria (which the book happens not to be meeting.) It's not "group think" if a lot of us are independently reaching similar conclusions; that's called a consensus.

    I actually think that critics and posters have given the book a reasonably fair shot, at least by the standards of the internet. Take Tim Hanley, for instance; he absolutely hated the first issues and most of what followed, but he was more than willing to acknowledge that the annual, in his view, was not that bad. But unfortunately, the next issues disappointed him again. Similarly, I though I might be seeing a tiny bit of improvement in the writing even before the annual, but I haven't seen it continue in this new arc, Lots of us have acknowledged some improvement in the art--but, for me, that this doesn't make up for the writing.

    I'm almost jealous of you; generally, I think it's more fun to be a non-conformist and maverick. That's why it was fun to defend issue #7. But, when it comes to the current run, I can't help it if a lot of people are right. I'm not going to change my opinion so that I can be a non-conformist.


    I'm just saying that I have yet to see a majority of opinion around here that doesn't coincide with the majority of critics' opinions yet in many other avenues of social media, there seems to be a much more varied opinion of this run and the last. In fact, besides this forum and the one on Comic Vine, the majority of social media sites I visited were very negative towards Azz's run in spite of what the critics said. The current run is pretty split though.
    Last edited by Dr. Poison; 08-12-2015 at 03:38 PM.
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  7. #187
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I'm just saying that I have yet to see a majority of opinion around here that doesn't coincide with the majority of critics' opinions yet in many other avenues of social media, there seems to be a much more varied opinion of this run and the last. In fact, besides this forum and the one on Comic Vine, the majority of social media sites I visited were very negative towards Azz's run in spite of what the critics said. The current run is pretty split though.
    Are you saying we can't actually make up our own minds, and come to a conclusion that just happens to line up with critics'?

    I really do think that everyone who has a problem with the run has made a pretty legitimate case for "Why".

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    Are you saying we can't actually make up our own minds, and come to a conclusion that just happens to line up with critics'?

    I really do think that everyone who has a problem with the run has made a pretty legitimate case for "Why".

    And I would say the same about those who had a problem with Azz's run.
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  9. #189
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    I own every issue of the Finch/Finch run thus far. I can tell you, in detail, what my exact problem with it is.

    We know that plenty of people with a "Legitimate" gripe with the previous run didn't even read the whole run. I can pick out exact gripes where people made up things that were not on the page.

    Very real difference.

  10. #190
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    And I would say the same about those who had a problem with Azz's run.
    Here's the thing - it's the odds, not any blind following of critics.

    If a run is considered 'good,' the majority of critics like it, and the majority of readers like it. The same is true; if a run is 'bad,' most critics will pan it and, independently, most readers will as well.

    I don't have to read a critic's review to know if I like or dislike something, nor do the majority of people on the forums. Long before the first negative reviews of Finch hit the web, people were on here saying that they didn't like the first issue and giving perfectly valid reasons for why they didn't like it. People are almost always posting opinions here before the reviews hit; the issue comes out and by noon threads are up, but most articles won't pop up til the evening at the earliest.

    It's perfectly fine to dislike something and be in the minority, or to like something and be in the minority; who cares what others think/like (critics or fellow forum members). What matters is whether or not you enjoyed it.

    However, don't assume that the only reason people post that they like or dislike something is because they read it elsewhere. That isn't fair to your fellow WW fans.

  11. #191
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    I own every issue of the Finch/Finch run thus far. I can tell you, in detail, what my exact problem with it is.

    We know that plenty of people with a "Legitimate" gripe with the previous run didn't even read the whole run. I can pick out exact gripes where people made up things that were not on the page.

    Very real difference.

    Just because you've read every issue of the Finchs' run doesn't mean that everyone who has complained about it has. You're speaking for yourself, not everyone. As for people supposedly making things up about the last run, while I hope I didn't ever do such a thing, I can understand why that may have happened. There were many things that were left vague and up to the reader to draw the final conclusion. In fact, it got to the point that some Azz-fans felt the need to pick on those that drew conclusions asking them if they needed every single thing spelled out for them.
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  12. #192
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Here's the thing - it's the odds, not any blind following of critics.

    If a run is considered 'good,' the majority of critics like it, and the majority of readers like it. The same is true; if a run is 'bad,' most critics will pan it and, independently, most readers will as well.

    I don't have to read a critic's review to know if I like or dislike something, nor do the majority of people on the forums. Long before the first negative reviews of Finch hit the web, people were on here saying that they didn't like the first issue and giving perfectly valid reasons for why they didn't like it. People are almost always posting opinions here before the reviews hit; the issue comes out and by noon threads are up, but most articles won't pop up til the evening at the earliest.

    It's perfectly fine to dislike something and be in the minority, or to like something and be in the minority; who cares what others think/like (critics or fellow forum members). What matters is whether or not you enjoyed it.

    However, don't assume that the only reason people post that they like or dislike something is because they read it elsewhere. That isn't fair to your fellow WW fans.

    All I said was that the comments I've seen here and on Comic Vine were quite different from the majority of comments I saw on every other Wonder Woman social media avenue that I visit. If you can find anywhere where I said something like "you guys are all just following the Pied Piper" when it comes to reviews, I'll gladly apologize. Or, you're welcome to check out my own forum(the Hall of Justice sub-forum of the Classic Comics Forum), Newsarama's chat box, or any of the various major Wonder Woman Facebook pages such as Share the Wonder, Wonder Woman Collectors Club, Superman/Wonder Woman Fan Archive, Wonder Woman Villains Group, etc.
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  13. #193
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    All I said was that the comments I've seen here and on Comic Vine were quite different from the majority of comments I saw on every other Wonder Woman social media avenue that I visit. If you can find anywhere where I said something like "you guys are all just following the Pied Piper" when it comes to reviews, I'll gladly apologize. Or, you're welcome to check out my own forum(the Hall of Justice sub-forum of the Classic Comics Forum), Newsarama's chat box, or any of the various major Wonder Woman Facebook pages such as Share the Wonder, Wonder Woman Collectors Club, Superman/Wonder Woman Fan Archive, Wonder Woman Villains Group, etc.
    When you ask leading questions like:

    Is this really just a common opinion or are people allowing themselves to fall into the same mindset as the critics?
    You are certainly implying that it's a strong possibility.

  14. #194
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    When you ask leading questions like:



    You are certainly implying that it's a strong possibility.

    I can understand why you would draw that conclusion now. I'm sorry if anyone felt like I was assuming they were "drinking the Kool-aid" so to speak. Again, the evidence I mentioned above is what has me wondering about this.

    Let me ask you(and anyone else who disagrees with me on this subject) this: Do you think that some people like what's popular simply because it's popular and want to fit in or do you think that everyone who likes anything truly likes it on it's own merit 100% of the time?
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  15. #195
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Just because you've read every issue of the Finchs' run doesn't mean that everyone who has complained about it has. You're speaking for yourself, not everyone. As for people supposedly making things up about the last run, while I hope I didn't ever do such a thing, I can understand why that may have happened. There were many things that were left vague and up to the reader to draw the final conclusion. In fact, it got to the point that some Azz-fans felt the need to pick on those that drew conclusions asking them if they needed every single thing spelled out for them.
    Sure.

    That said, everyone here who seems like they dislike the Finch/Finch run has laid out why issue by issue. If they are covering that they haven't read it, they are doing a brilliant job.


    As for "understanding why", the example I am thinking of had no room for conclusions. If you need me to get into it, I could.

    When that happens or conclusions are being jumped to, it's hard not to notice.

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