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  1. #61
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    Wonder Woman #36 had heavy promotion, it was the cover from Previews magazine ( that is a magazine where retaielrs see the news from comics)

    neither tomasi or Mahnke has a superstar status like Finch has. I don't think it done badly, but also not so much. I'm curious about the orders vs the sales, since it didn't show up on bleeding cool best.
    Anyway Batgirl was successful with a creative team that is not a superstar, and attracted the target public to thecomics: young girls.
    Last edited by Blacksun; 12-15-2014 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    Wonder Woman #36 had heavy promotion, it was the cover from Previews magazine ( that is a magazine where retaielrs see the news from comics)

    neither tomasi or Mahnke has a superstar status like Finch has. I don't think it done badly, but also not so much. I'm curious about the orders vs the sales, since it didn't show up on bleeding cool best.
    Anyway Batgirl was successful with a creative team that is not a superstar, and attracted the target public to thecomics: young girls.

    Mahnke isn't a superstar artist? He had a long run on Green Lantern with Geoff Johns plus he just finished a run on Justice League. He wouldn't have had runs on both of those books especially with Goeff Johns if he wasn't high-profile. Tomasi has written for 52, Green Lantern Corps, Batman & Robin to name a few.

    Batgirl have have attracted some young girls but the revamp caused me(a long-time Batgirl fan) to drop the book as I don't care for the interior art.
    Currently Reading:Batman & The Outsiders, Doomsday Clock, Female Furies, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Mahnke isn't a superstar artist? He had a long run on Green Lantern with Geoff Johns plus he just finished a run on Justice League. He wouldn't have had runs on both of those books especially with Goeff Johns if he wasn't high-profile. Tomasi has written for 52, Green Lantern Corps, Batman & Robin to name a few.

    Batgirl have have attracted some young girls but the revamp caused me(a long-time Batgirl fan) to drop the book as I don't care for the interior art.
    well the objective is cater to a new generation of fans, it is successful. The art is very accessible, on the style of teen magazine ilustrations. It created buzz, I didn't saw any good buzz on WW #36

    Mahnke did a lot of works with big writers, be he was never the main push it was always the writers (johns,morrison). there is many long time artists that aren't superstars. Kevin mcguire,ed mcguinness, jerry ordway, chris samnee...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    well the objective is cater to a new generation of fans, it is successful. The art is very accessible, on the style of teen magazine ilustrations. It created buzz, I didn't saw any good buzz on WW #36

    Mahnke did a lot of works with big writers, be he was never the main push it was always the writers (johns,morrison). there is many long time artists that aren't superstars. Kevin mcguire,ed mcguinness, jerry ordway, chris samnee...

    I consider both McGuire and Ordway to be superstar artist. They both defined eras of several books including Justice League International, All-Star Squadron, Superman, and Power of Shazam.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I consider both McGuire and Ordway to be superstar artist. They both defined eras of several books including Justice League International, All-Star Squadron, Superman, and Power of Shazam.
    If they were DC wouldn't fire both so easily. Ordway had a esclusive contract that DC barely give him what to draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    If they were DC wouldn't fire both so easily. Ordway had a esclusive contract that DC barely give him what to draw.


    Why would they give Ordway an exclusive contract if he wasn't a superstar creator in the first place?
    Currently Reading:Batman & The Outsiders, Doomsday Clock, Female Furies, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison
    Are you suggesting that Azz changed so many people's opinions on Wonder Woman? If so, we'll see how many of them keep buying the book now that he's gone.
    This quote is from the "Azzarello Final Judgement" thread, but I pulled it over to ask what you think about this now that we've seen the Finches' initial numbers. Doesn't it seem likely that if most new fans brought in by Azzarello and Chiang had dropped the book from their pull lists beginning with 36, that loss would have offset the gain of returning or new fans curious about what the Finches will do, and the numbers would have more or less stood still? Now that we know that the numbers went up, doesn't it seem likely that most of Azz and Chiang's readership, including the new readers, stuck around and gave the Finches a chance? Now, what they do with that chance going forward isn't something that Azz and Chiang can be praised or blamed for.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    This quote is from the "Azzarello Final Judgement" thread, but I pulled it over to ask what you think about this now that we've seen the Finches' initial numbers. Doesn't it seem likely that if most new fans brought in by Azzarello and Chiang had dropped the book from their pull lists beginning with 36, that loss would have offset the gain of returning or new fans curious about what the Finches will do, and the numbers would have more or less stood still? Now that we know that the numbers went up, doesn't it seem likely that most of Azz and Chiang's readership, including the new readers, stuck around and gave the Finches a chance? Now, what they do with that chance going forward isn't something that Azz and Chiang can be praised or blamed for.
    number of orders can lie a lot, stores can order a lot and sell very little. Even if Azz and chiang readers took the ww out of their pull lists it could have reached the numbers of 36. There's no way of know what exactly happened

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Why would they give Ordway an exclusive contract if he wasn't a superstar creator in the first place?
    at least they thought it when signed him, but after it seems like they changed of idea

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    This quote is from the "Azzarello Final Judgement" thread, but I pulled it over to ask what you think about this now that we've seen the Finches' initial numbers. Doesn't it seem likely that if most new fans brought in by Azzarello and Chiang had dropped the book from their pull lists beginning with 36, that loss would have offset the gain of returning or new fans curious about what the Finches will do, and the numbers would have more or less stood still? Now that we know that the numbers went up, doesn't it seem likely that most of Azz and Chiang's readership, including the new readers, stuck around and gave the Finches a chance? Now, what they do with that chance going forward isn't something that Azz and Chiang can be praised or blamed for.

    I think we need at least 6 issues into the new run to gage this accomplishment for Azzarello but even if numbers stay high, I think we've both seen numerous people here say they were dropping the book before the Finchs' 1st issue was released so these numbers are probably supported by some continuing readers, some former readers, and some David Finch fans. I also wonder if any Wonder Woman readers who started with Azz are also reading any other books that Wonder Woman is the star or co-star such as Superman/Wonder Woman, Sensation Comics, or the upcoming Wonder Woman '77?
    Last edited by Dr. Poison; 12-16-2014 at 07:07 AM.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    I think we need at least 6 issues into the new run to gage this accomplishment for Azzarello....
    How so? Staying on to try the new run may have something to do with the lead-in from Azzarello and Chiang, but after they do try the first issue, readers are going to decide for themselves what to think about the new (and the LCS' orders, if the managers know what they're doing, will at least roughly follow their customers' decisions).

    For example, if Azzarello taught new readers to appreciate Diana as a resilient hero who doesn't do a lot of brooding, and if they don't see those qualities in Finch's Diana, their decision to leave won't mean Azzarello failed to lead them to an appreciation of Wonder Woman, right? Wonder Woman should be resilient and shouldn't be too much of a brooder; if the FInches don't capture those qualities, it's not Azz's fault. Or if Chiang taught new readers to appreciate character over cheesecake and they don't see David Finch following that approach, then the departure of those readers will be because Finch didn't meet Chiang's standard, not because Chiang brought readers who didn't care about WW as a character.

    but even if numbers stay high, I think we've both seen numerous people here say they were dropping the book before the Finchs' 1st issue was released
    We may have different definition of "numerous." I would call it "a few." And even some of them may have been curious enough about Hippolyta's fate and other left-over agenda items to stick around and give the Finches a shot.

    so these numbers are probably supported by some continuing readers, some former readers, and some David Finch fans.
    There's no doubt about that, but if there was a massive dropoff by Azzarello fans, the other groups probably would have been offset, and the number of orders would probably have been closer to the baseline set by Azzarrello.

    I also wonder if any Wonder Woman readers who started with Azz are also reading any other books that Wonder Woman is the star or co-star such as Superman/Wonder Woman, Sensation Comics, or the upcoming Wonder Woman '77?
    Who knows? But I think part of the point of having more than one Wonder Woman book is to accommodate more than one kind of Wonder Woman fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun
    number of orders can lie a lot, stores can order a lot and sell very little. Even if Azz and chiang readers took the ww out of their pull lists it could have reached the numbers of 36. There's no way of know what exactly happened
    There's a lot of truth in that. But if some critics of Azz and Chiang were getting ready to blame them for low numbers after his run by saying that his readers didn't stick around, I'd like to see them give Azz and Chiang some credit for high numbers after their run.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    How so? Staying on to try the new run may have something to do with the lead-in from Azzarello and Chiang, but after they do try the first issue, readers are going to decide for themselves what to think about the new (and the LCS' orders, if the managers know what they're doing, will at least roughly follow their customers' decisions).

    For example, if Azzarello taught new readers to appreciate Diana as a resilient hero who doesn't do a lot of brooding, and if they don't see those qualities in Finch's Diana, their decision to leave won't mean Azzarello failed to lead them to an appreciation of Wonder Woman, right? Wonder Woman should be resilient and shouldn't be too much of a brooder; if the FInches don't capture those qualities, it's not Azz's fault. Or if Chiang taught new readers to appreciate character over cheesecake and they don't see David Finch following that approach, then the departure of those readers will be because Finch didn't meet Chiang's standard, not because Chiang brought readers who didn't care about WW as a character.



    We may have different definition of "numerous." I would call it "a few." And even some of them may have been curious enough about Hippolyta's fate and other left-over agenda items to stick around and give the Finches a shot.



    There's no doubt about that, but if there was a massive dropoff by Azzarello fans, the other groups probably would have been offset, and the number of orders would probably have been closer to the baseline set by Azzarrello.



    Who knows? But I think part of the point of having more than one Wonder Woman book is to accommodate more than one kind of Wonder Woman fan.



    There's a lot of truth in that. But if some critics of Azz and Chiang were getting ready to blame them for low numbers after his run by saying that his readers didn't stick around, I'd like to see them give Azz and Chiang some credit for high numbers after their run.

    Well, no creative team is going to mimic the previous one(if they're smart) but I think that the Finchs would be smart to continue the long-legacy(set way before Azzarello/Chiang) of Diana's core concepts. Diana had her self-pity moments in Azz's run such as towards the end when the First Born had her tied up and bleeding out so if one venting speech to Aquaman is too much for someone to continue reading the book, I'd be a little perplexed.

    So if the new readers brought on by Azz aren't reading any of the other books that feature Wonder Woman and don't stick around for the Finchs' run past a couple of issues, can they really be classified as "Wonder Woman fans" if they only seem to like one creative team's approach to the character? That sounds like a technicality at best.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Well, no creative team is going to mimic the previous one(if they're smart) but I think that the Finchs would be smart to continue the long-legacy(set way before Azzarello/Chiang) of Diana's core concepts. Diana had her self-pity moments in Azz's run such as towards the end when the First Born had her tied up and bleeding out so if one venting speech to Aquaman is too much for someone to continue reading the book, I'd be a little perplexed.

    So if the new readers brought on by Azz aren't reading any of the other books that feature Wonder Woman and don't stick around for the Finchs' run past a couple of issues, can they really be classified as "Wonder Woman fans" if they only seem to like one creative team's approach to the character? That sounds like a technicality at best.
    i fail to see the relation of the confrontation with WW and WW talking with Aquaman. Even tied up WW stuck to her value and was a strong woman.

    To be a WW is not need to buy everything that WW appears. many of the readers that Azz bought doesn't like ww and sm together, why would they buy the book? if they judge the Finches run awful and won't buy it, good for them. Now if they go to back issues read some good past runs rucka, simone, perez, that is a good example of fan

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksun View Post
    i fail to see the relation of the confrontation with WW and WW talking with Aquaman. Even tied up WW stuck to her value and was a strong woman.

    To be a WW is not need to buy everything that WW appears. many of the readers that Azz bought doesn't like ww and sm together, why would they buy the book? if they judge the Finches run awful and won't buy it, good for them. Now if they go to back issues read some good past runs rucka, simone, perez, that is a good example of fan

    Oh, I agree that if they go and read back issues of previous WW runs, that definitely counts but if they only like Azz's interpretation of the character, I'm not sold.
    Currently Reading:Batman & The Outsiders, Doomsday Clock, Female Furies, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    Well, no creative team is going to mimic the previous one(if they're smart) but I think that the Finchs would be smart to continue the long-legacy(set way before Azzarello/Chiang) of Diana's core concepts. Diana had her self-pity moments in Azz's run such as towards the end when the First Born had her tied up and bleeding out so if one venting speech to Aquaman is too much for someone to continue reading the book, I'd be a little perplexed.
    My point is that the most Azz and Chiang could do for the FInches' run is to get fans to the first issue. If fans of the Azz/Chiang run read the first issue and didn't like it well enough, for whatever reason, to read the second, we can't really blame Azz and Chiang for that. So I don't know why we would wait until the Finches' sixth issue to make inferences about whether Azz and Chiang got their fans interested enough in Wonder Woman to give the Finches's book a try.

    So if the new readers brought on by Azz aren't reading any of the other books that feature Wonder Woman and don't stick around for the Finchs' run past a couple of issues, can they really be classified as "Wonder Woman fans" if they only seem to like one creative team's approach to the character? That sounds like a technicality at best.
    I don't really care about the semantics of calling someone a "fan" or not, but there may well be people who tried Azz's run for Azz but found that they liked things about the character that were not original to Azz--her compassion, her non-brooding resolve, the mythological elements of her story, etc. If these people decide not to follow the Finches' version after trying their first issue, and if they're not interested in Sensation and the other books, that doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't read books by people other than Azz that incorporate some important traditional aspects of the character, like the ones I mentioned above; it just means that they don't like the particular ones on offer. Give them a Neil Gaiman version , and you might get a different result. You might even get a different result with a Snyder version. And not because of their big names, but because their writing styles might be at least a little more amenable to Azz fans.

    I'm tempted to disagree with your reading of that scene with Diana bleeding out as an example of "self-pity"--but this is the sales thread, and while it's totally my fault for bringing up specific qualities that people might have liked in Azz's WW that weren't original to him, I probably shouldn't make it worse by digressing further from sales. Maybe later I'll bring it up on "Azzarello Final Judgement" thread, and we can talk about it more there.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 12-16-2014 at 03:21 PM.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    ... Doesn't it seem likely that if most new fans brought in by Azzarello and Chiang had dropped the book from their pull lists beginning with 36, that loss would have offset the gain of returning or new fans curious about what the Finches will do, and the numbers would have more or less stood still? ...
    Um, no. When do sales numbers ever stand still? A new creative team, especially one with a big name talent like Finch on art, always gets a sales boost from retailers. There's no real way to see how many new fans are continuing, how old many fans jump back on board, how many fans try it for the first time due to the new creative team, how many copies sit on shelves unsold, etc etc. Way too many variables, and too little info, especially given that it's only one issue. Were there any incentive variant covers?

    As for blame and credit to the previous creative team, I see it somewhat like the hand-off in a relay race. Both (all) parties have to work to make it work well. Was it Simone's fault that the Amazons were mind-wiped and missing when she took over? No, that happened before she got there, and she had no control over that. But, it still affected what she could do; and it wasn't something she could make "right" in a single issue.

    Take Hippoltya for example: whose idea was it for Azzarello to leave her as clay? Did Azzarello just not resolve that well, or did he leave it because he was asked to? It obviously has an impact on the new run beyond just one issue, but who do we credit and/or blame? The Amazons are in a similar situation (again); the creative team, like it or not, is stuck with the mess Azzarello created. Now Finch might make it better, might make it worse. But the effect from Azzarello isn't going to go away in one issue, right?

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