Blue Marvel Appreciation

[Agent Z]

Ok, I didn't mean end racism, but the conflicts resulting from it. As in managing it, just like how Batman manages breakouts from Arkham. If Adam wanted to, he could just fly in and stop riots and lynchings without even having to do anything. Just his presence would deter any further violence. I'm not saying he had to be out there like Malcolm X or MLK, heck I'm not saying he should've been out there marching if he didn't want to, but he could've been using his powers like that as Blue Marvel (before his secret ID reveal), maybe that can be a mini for him, going more in depth as to what he was doing back in the 60's. As for Icon, he could have easily ended the Civil War with his Superman level powers, but he didn't. Just point him in the direction of the confederates, then boom, no more confederate army. Instead he chose to hide them, although we did see him still fighting in the war and helping out with the underground railroad. My whole thing is that (imo) having powerful characters like that back in those days doesn't work too well because they'd alter history (that's already been established in and out of universe) drastically if they had really stepped in.

Idk maybe I'm misunderstanding this, I'll take a brief hiatus to reread the material and re-evaluate my thoughts on the issue.

Adam would not have ended conflict stemming from racism. At best, it would have meant racists would be more subtle about how they went about hurting black people. And eveb that is wishful thinking. Black people are already treated like **** because the rest of the world sees us as inhuman. The existence of an actual black superman would only exacerbate this feeling. You'd have white supremacists scrambling to turn themselves into supers on par with Adam, the police force being militarized further, etc. The entire situation was a powder keg that Adam didn't want to make any worse.

As for Icon, like you said, he did work from the shadows whixh was the best he could.

[JudicatorPrime]

Marvel left him and Monica in the desert to die. I doubt they are coming back anytime soon let alone appearing in the MCU.

Monica will be one of the members of the new Avengers book to be released in 2019. We're told that there may be a Blue Marvel cameo or two as well, but as of now he's not the member of any team, or receiving a series at all in 2019.

[Agent Z]

And that's a big reason why for the MCU Adam's origin would need tweaking, NO WAY Luke or T'Challa would've laid down for the government. I absolutely love Blue Marvel but what made Luke Cage and the Black Panther movie resonate so much with me was the pride i felt at seeing strong Black men on screen. For someone who knew nothing of the character of Blu Marvel i believe they would find it would be difficult to have that experience with his origin on the big screen.

You're right that Luke and T'Challa wouldn't have laid down for the government. Because Luke and T'Challa aren't in Adam's shoes. Hell, in T'Challa's caze he is the government. We cannot and should not expect these characters to react to situations in the same way.

[JudicatorPrime]

Adam would not have ended conflict stemming from racism. At best, it would have meant racists would be more subtle about how they went about hurting black people. And eveb that is wishful thinking. Black people are already treated like **** because the rest of the world sees us as inhuman. The existence of an actual black superman would only exacerbate this feeling. You'd have white supremacists scrambling to turn themselves into supers on par with Adam, the police force being militarized further, etc. The entire situation was a powder keg that Adam didn't want to make any worse.

As for Icon, like you said, he did work from the shadows whixh was the best he could.

All good points. Yet there's something to be said about presence and familiarity. About gaining trust and being that beacon on the hill that inspires others. It's easiest to speak of these things in terms of professional athletes and entertainers, because those are the individuals who even the most racist people allow into their world view in a positive way. The comedian D L Hughley often jokes that the worst place for a Black man to be is in a White person's imagination. Well, athletes and entertainers would be the lone exceptions to that. The Jackie Robinsons, Bill Russells, Muhammad Alis, Nat King Coles, Michael Jordans, Hank Aarons, Michael Jacksons, Sidney Poitiers, Denzel Washingtons, NWAs, Tupacs (and on and on) of the world didn't end racism. Could never end racism. They impacted the country and the world simply by being an example that changed hearts and minds.

That's all that Blue Marvel had to be. Just another brother, albeit a very powerful one, using his abilities to make the world better for everyone. In the near term there may have been White riots and blowback. But after 5, 10, 20, 40 years of being that beacon on the hill, saving the world and changing lives, Blue Marvel would have easily become the standard bearer for heroes on this fictional Earth. No, he wouldn't end racism. Hate will be with us as long as humanity walks the planet. It's too far entrenched in our thanatotic penchant for destruction, of others and our own selves, to ever be expunged. But Blue Marvel could have been a difference maker.

[XPac]

True, his story isn't widely known. While I realize this is a small sampling which doesn't necessarily reflect the broader audience, his origin is problematic for enough of BM's readers who are familiar with him that it's probably not something that anyone would want to highlight. Ironically, he didn't do anything bad. But his actions may be perceived as less than heroic. It's not something that either Luke or T'Challa would have acquiesced to given their personalities and mindsets. Of that I'm sure.

I don't think him doing something SOME readers may disagree with necessarily hurts the character.

Again, we can look at Spider-Man and how he failed to stop the burglar who ended up killing his uncle. You can EASILY say that wasn't heroic and DEFNINTELY not what Captain America or Superman would have done. But that's just a part of Peter's story. And I think that actually makes him more interesting a character overall.

And I would say the same with Blue Marvel. Agree with his decision or not, I think it's an important element in the characters backstory, and one which to a degree does define him. Whether or not he did the right thing, how he deals with that decision I think is what makes for an interesting journey.

If you look at the Net Flicks guys, a lot of them have made some questionable decisions. They're doing things at the start which again a Captian America or a Superman wouldn't necessarily do. But I think that's just a part of the ride they show wants to take the audience on. They all ultimately end up getting to the point of being heroes, but they don't necessarily have to start off that way.

[JudicatorPrime]

I don't think him doing something SOME readers may disagree with necessarily hurts the character.

Again, we can look at Spider-Man and how he failed to stop the burglar who ended up killing his uncle. You can EASILY say that wasn't heroic and DEFNINTELY not what Captain America or Superman would have done. But that's just a part of Peter's story. And I think that actually makes him more interesting a character overall.

That's a bit of an apple to oranges comparison. One time Spider-Man didn't stop a burgler. It would be a different story if he was guilty of that for the majority of his life. For the majority of his life, Adam was mostly riding the pine. Sure, he did a few things here and there under the radar, but never in the light of day.

The other reason why Spider Man is not the best example here is because J. Jonah Jameson made it his paper's mission to demonize him. He spent quite a bit of his capital and credibility in the attempt. Nevertheless, Spider Man remained in the limelight front and center. Even if one of the largest media outlets was trashing him daily, he remained true to his calling.

Why? The other reason why Spider Man isn't the best example here. His life lesson and motto: "With great power comes great responsibility." Make no mistake, that's not a clarion call for passivity. It's a call for continued action.

Peter Parker would not have retired, if the President asked him to do so. He would have probably packed up Aunt May and moved to Canada, or London. Union Jack Spidey would be all the rage right now.

[XPac]

That's a bit of an apple to oranges comparison. One time Spider-Man didn't stop a burgler. It would be a different story if he was guilty of that for the majority of his life. For the majority of his life, Adam was mostly riding the pine. Sure, he did a few things here and there under the radar, but never in the light of day.

The other reason why Spider Man is not the best example here is because J. Jonah Jameson made it his paper's mission to demonize him. He spent quite a bit of his capital and credibility in the attempt. Nevertheless, Spider Man remained in the limelight front and center. Even if one of the largest media outlets was trashing him daily, he remained true to his calling.

Why? The other reason why Spider Man isn't the best example here. His life lesson and motto: "With great power comes great responsibility." Make no mistake, that's not a clarion call for passivity. It's a call for continued action.

Peter Parker would not have retired, if the President asked him to do so. He would have probably packed up Aunt May and moved to Canada, or London. Union Jack Spidey would be all the rage right now.

Spider-Man would not have retired NOW because he believes that with great power comes great responsibility. But that was something he learned from a mistake he made, not something he embodied right out of the gate.

And thats sort of thr point of Blue Marvel to a degree. It's a character arc.

[Golden Guardian of Good]

Monica will be one of the members of the new Avengers book to be released in 2019. We're told that there may be a Blue Marvel cameo or two as well, but as of now he's not the member of any team, or receiving a series at all in 2019.

A big shame.

[JudicatorPrime]

Spider-Man would not have retired NOW because he believes that with great power comes great responsibility. But that was something he learned from a mistake he made, not something he embodied right out of the gate.

And thats sort of thr point of Blue Marvel to a degree. It's a character arc.

Peter wouldn't have retired then, either. Not as a rebellious, big-headed, unthinking, self-absorbed youth, which was part of the lesson being taught. And after all of these years of getting to know Peter, we all know that he would not have stayed on the sidelines for very long. It's not just story arc, it's the defining component to his character.

Adam's damning flaw is that he accepted the box that others made for him, even though he had the power and intellect to either reshape those parameters, or thrive outside of them. Having worked with disadvantaged kids, that's not uncommon. It's always difficult to get them to see that they're more than the socio-politico-economic environment which constrains them. The minute Adam was notified of the EO, he should have left the country, created a new costume and started anew elsewhere. Ex-Patriot would have been his new name. And I'm sure he would have reasoned that it would have been irresponsible not to continue to save lives and make a difference in the world, even if he had to do it under another nation's banner. No matter what else was going on in America, the people would have known that somewhere in the world there was a Black man -- a god amongst men -- flying around saving the world. And when the story got out as to why he expatriated, there probably would have been political hell to pay back in the States by the President and his team (if they were still alive). But that's not his problem or his concern.

But you're right: that's not the character arc that Grevioux wanted. Grevioux wanted the box, and emotional reactions based on those parameters. I reject the premise, which is why it's difficult for me to completely accept their choices.

[Cosmic Emerald 23]

Adam would not have ended conflict stemming from racism. At best, it would have meant racists would be more subtle about how they went about hurting black people. And eveb that is wishful thinking. Black people are already treated like **** because the rest of the world sees us as inhuman. The existence of an actual black superman would only exacerbate this feeling. You'd have white supremacists scrambling to turn themselves into supers on par with Adam, the police force being militarized further, etc. The entire situation was a powder keg that Adam didn't want to make any worse.

As for Icon, like you said, he did work from the shadows whixh was the best he could.

I said "As in managing them". Again, I already acknowledged the fact that BM most likely didn't want to throw the country into chaos and subject his own people to more violence (and that he can't be everywhere at once) and discrimination due to him continuing his hero work, but as Judicator said, he would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for the community and even the world through his actions. Just like in real life, the civil rights movement wasn't an instant success right off the bat, it took a lot of time, effort, and pain, but we (more accurately, our ancestors) got through it and we accomplished change because we stood our ground even though the whole country was against us. I'm not saying that this should've been Adam's choice right off the bat with no thought about the ramifications of his decision, I want to really see him grapple with the possibilities and lose sleep over it as it's not the easiest choice in the world. But at the end of the day, I think it would've been more empowering and uplifting if he looked to his people and said "if you're still going, I'm still going", especially since they didn't have powers.

Like I said before, he would DRASTICALLY change the pre-established history of the Marvel universe had he decided to stay and fight, which is why I'm not for retconning characters into the past. Again, yeah I know we now have the benefit of hindsight, but I think a better choice would be to have Adam come from a different universe where all that did happen, and then for whatever reason (like it gets wiped out like the Ultimate universe, idk) he gets sent to the main universe with all the baggage and memories of his own native universe. He could be given another "imperfect hero" moment/decision that is different from his canon one.

[JudicatorPrime]

Speaking of professional athletes, the story of Warren Moon comes to mind. Most here are probably too young to remember who he is. I'm sure his article on Wikipedia has been scrubbed and whitewashed to remove any of the true backstory. Research, research, research, kids. Warren Moon was an African American who played the position of quarterback at a time when the prevailing perception, de facto policy and zeitgeist was that only Whites could play the position of QB. How strong was that racist notion? Despite a superb college career, and despite the fact that several teams at the time needed a QB, not one NFL team drafted Warren Moon. The NFL Draft back then was 12 long rounds. 12!!! Yet not one team had a place for him on their squad as a QB.

The NFL clearly was sending Warren a message. He couldn't be a professional QB anywhere in the country. (Sound familiar, Adam?)

Well, if you're Warren Moon, what do you do? Do you accept it? Or do you escape the box and go sell your promise to a professional team in another country? Is your conviction that you're only doing what's right strong enough to pick up stakes and move? Fortunately for us, Warren Moon was not deterred. As much as it hurt not to fulfill his lifelong dream of being drafted into the NFL as a QB, he instead joined the Canadian Football League as a Black quarterback. And he dominated the league, proceeding to win 5 consecutive championships and shattering numerous records as well as the racist perception of the black quarterback. And he did it in the bright of day for all the world to see.

Eventually, inevitably, the NFL changed its tune. The teams came calling in droves for the services of Warren Moon. Validation? Sure. Vindication? You bet. But none of that happens if Warren Moon had simply accepted the terms set before him. None of that happens if Warren Moon was an Adam Brashear.

[Golden Guardian of Good]

I know this is VERY shallow but if BM does return I want him to get some crazy feats. Because I notice Hulk and Superman fans talking junk about the character calling him weak. Not trying to start drama but its been getting annoying and it would be a good karma back at them.

[JudicatorPrime]

I know this is VERY shallow but if BM does return I want him to get some crazy feats. Because I notice Hulk and Superman fans talking junk about the character calling him weak. Not trying to start drama but its been getting annoying and it would be a good karma back at them.

Honestly, feats would be nice, but I wouldn't waste time debating Hulk fans. Or Superman fans. At this stage there can be no objectivity with either of those bases. Doubt me? Go tell a Hulk fan that Blue Marvel would drain him of all of his gamma rays in an instant and force him back into his Banner form and see what happens. Their minds can't accept the fact that matter and antimatter annihilation results in gamma rays being produced. They won't accept the fact that Adam converts and houses gamma radiation far better and more efficiently than the Hulk ever could. That's part and parcel to being a "stable" matter-antimatter battery. They'll ignore your attempts to get them to logically see that Adam has been mastering gamma radiation for 60+ years. They'll tell you that "comic science" makes the feat impossible. They'll claim that Hulk's rage would prevent it. They'll scream that only the Silver Surfer or someone like that is powerful enough to absorb Hulk's energy, despite the fact that Adam is linked to the same energy reservoir that Anti-Man is linked to...and that reservoir is limitless by every account. Energy enough to unmake Galactus as the Devourer and restore him as the Lifebringer. Hulk doesn't have nearly that amount of gamma energy at his command, no matter how mad he gets. Go posit these things and then wait for the denials and deflections. You cannot attack their god with facts and science. So why bother?

[ed2962]

I said "As in managing them". Again, I already acknowledged the fact that BM most likely didn't want to throw the country into chaos and subject his own people to more violence (and that he can't be everywhere at once) and discrimination due to him continuing his hero work, but as Judicator said, he would serve as a beacon of inspiration and hope for the community and even the world through his actions. Just like in real life, the civil rights movement wasn't an instant success right off the bat, it took a lot of time, effort, and pain, but we (more accurately, our ancestors) got through it and we accomplished change because we stood our ground even though the whole country was against us. I'm not saying that this should've been Adam's choice right off the bat with no thought about the ramifications of his decision, I want to really see him grapple with the possibilities and lose sleep over it as it's not the easiest choice in the world. But at the end of the day, I think it would've been more empowering and uplifting if he looked to his people and said "if you're still going, I'm still going", especially since they didn't have powers.

Like I said before, he would DRASTICALLY change the pre-established history of the Marvel universe had he decided to stay and fight, which is why I'm not for retconning characters into the past. Again, yeah I know we now have the benefit of hindsight, but I think a better choice would be to have Adam come from a different universe where all that did happen, and then for whatever reason (like it gets wiped out like the Ultimate universe, idk) he gets sent to the main universe with all the baggage and memories of his own native universe. He could be given another "imperfect hero" moment/decision that is different from his canon one.

I dunno, I don't think it changes the mainstream continuity all that much. If an editor wanted a series where Adam existed as a superhero and didn't retire and dealt with racial and political issues of the times, it doesn't have to change anything having to do with the X-men adventures, Spider-Man, the Avengers etc. Many of those old stories still work in the same way.

[Cosmic Emerald 23]

Honestly, feats would be nice, but I wouldn't waste time debating Hulk fans. Or Superman fans. At this stage there can be no objectivity with either of those bases. Doubt me? Go tell a Hulk fan that Blue Marvel would drain him of all of his gamma rays in an instant and force him back into his Banner form and see what happens. Their minds can't accept the fact that matter and antimatter annihilation results in gamma rays being produced. They won't accept the fact that Adam converts and houses gamma radiation far better and more efficiently than the Hulk ever could. That's part and parcel to being a "stable" matter-antimatter battery. They'll ignore your attempts to get them to logically see that Adam has been mastering gamma radiation for 60+ years. They'll tell you that "comic science" makes the feat impossible. They'll claim that Hulk's rage would prevent it. They'll scream that only the Silver Surfer or someone like that is powerful enough to absorb Hulk's energy, despite the fact that Adam is linked to the same energy reservoir that Anti-Man is linked to...and that reservoir is limitless by every account. Energy enough to unmake Galactus as the Devourer and restore him as the Lifebringer. Hulk doesn't have nearly that amount of gamma energy at his command, no matter how mad he gets. Go posit these things and then wait for the denials and deflections. You cannot attack their god with facts and science. So why bother?

Lol I agree, Hulk fanboys are the worst. They think he can beat ANYBODY because "he wud get maddur and maddur den he wud smash his opponent". They're the same ones who whine and complain when Thor properly whoops his ass cuz they're so used to seeing him win against him even though Thor outclasses him in all departments. It's literally his popularity that's giving him those wins, not logic.