Batman: The Killing Joke (1988) / What is your verdict?

[canadianaidan64]

I gave it a three. I don't enjoy reading a serial killer go on for 20 pages about how it's our true nature to be evil and psychotic, because I know it just isn't true. His diatribe didn't resonate with me, I was just waiting the whole time for Bats to swoop down, punch him in the face and say " okay Joker, back to Arkham Asylum until next week".

But then I'm not much of a joker fan to begin with, to me he's just an evil killer clown, no different from the clown from IT. A really flat one dimensional character. I'd much rather read a good two-face story about how everyone has the capacity for both good and evil, one where you actually question your own morality and whether everything is black and white or or whether there are shades of Gary.

[Lorendiac]

I actually loathe the Killing Joke. I hate the idea of Joker as a failed comedian struggling to provide for his family.

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I would say: "I like that idea of 'Joker as a failed comedian who tragically lost his sweet wife just before he fell into that vat of acid' -- as long as it's only meant to be taken seriously within the context of that one graphic novel, and is not considered 'binding continuity' for the regular ongoing Bat-titles."

On the other hand, if DC did, every year or two, another Joker story which included tear-jerking flashbacks to his time as a well-meaning but desperate-for-cash comedian who lost his wife, etc., that would really annoy me.

Heck, Joker himself acknowledged in that story that sometimes he remembers his "one really bad day" one way -- and sometimes another! So sometimes I prefer to think that he just happened to feel, on that occasion, like convincing himself that it really wasn't his fault that he ever became a maniacal criminal mastermind in the first place; cruel fate just pushed him over the edge! A week later, he might prefer to remember something entirely different.

[Alan2099]

Here's an interesting read for you. http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...le-choice.html

It points out that Joker's past has actually been really consistent and wasn't actually multiple choice until the mid 2000s.

[malysy]

One of my favorite batman stories ever. Loved it.

[Rinquinquin]

I got this two weeks ago and finally read it a week ago. Initially I wasn't quite happy with it. In fact, I was dejected. The story was just okay, not amazing, and the art was...yeah, definitely not my cup of tea. However, after re-reading it over the last couple of days, the more I read it, the more it's growing on me. It's unquestionably not what I expected and it didn't (and it still doesn't) wow me...yet something about the Joker in this one makes ponder a few things that I didn't think about before...

Overall it's all right despite failing to meet my desire. I'm hoping Batman: Venom will fulfill that.

[CapeandCowl]

I finally got to read this as an adult, as it was one of the books my father would not let me read as a kid as it was too dark (same with The Dark Knight Returns, which I have since seen as a DCAU two-part film) and serious for me to read at that point in time. Having now read it, I really was not all that impressed and I thought seeing Barbara Gordon that way was way too explicit though I guess that was the point.

[Vinsanity]

I didn't like it tbqh but it is good, I just didn't like it.

[Lorendiac]

Here's an interesting read for you. http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/201...le-choice.html

It points out that Joker's past has actually been really consistent and wasn't actually multiple choice until the mid 2000s.

An interesting piece, but I have to firmly disagree with the blogger when he asserts that Marv Wolfman's take on Joker's backstory in "Batman #450-451" was clearly endorsing the tragic flashback story from Alan Moore's "The Killing Joke" as now being The Official Joker Origin Story in the DCU. The stuff the blogger offers in scanned images only shows that Wolfman was paying tribute to the basic concepts of "This guy used to be an ordinary crook until he fell in a vat of acid while wearing a red hood and was physically and psychologically transformed into The Joker as we know him today." In other words: The key elements of the Bill Finger version from 1951!

I don't recall anything in Wolfman's version which contradicted Moore's version, but likewise I don't remember anything in Wolfman's version which had only been introduced for the first time in Moore's version and was now being "confirmed as canonical." I think Wolfman deliberately left it wide open!

[colossus34]

Its a work of art and will be remembered as one the best Batman stories of all time.

[DemonRin]

2/5. Didn't like Batman killing Joker.

This... baffles me. I never once read into the story that Batman Killed the Joker, and didn't really hear anyone saying this until Grant Morrison said that's how he interpreted the scene, and suddenly now a whole bunch of people think he killed the Joker.

Batman killing the Joker at the end makes absolutely no sense for multiple reasons, which, yes, I'm going to list here:

1: The whole point of Batman's part of the story was that he was trying to avoid killing the Joker. Sure, he seemed resigned to the inevitability that, if they continued their struggle, eventually one of them would end up killing the other, but he didn't at any point imply that this was the outcome he wanted were he in a position to help it. There was never that Old Yeller moment where he was like "Might have to put the Joker down", so the implication was that during their fighting he'd eventually snap and kill the Joker or he'd lose control while beating him or something. Not "I'll snap his neck when he's giving up peacefully". Considering The Joker HAD given himself up the fight at the very end of the story, it seems ridiculous that he'd even consider killing him here.

2: The Joker's entire plan here was to prove that one bad day can make a person snap and drive them to madness. If Batman had taken that step to kill the Joker, Joker would have won as he would have proven that the things Joker did to Jim and Barbara were enough to snap Batman. Jim FLAT OUT TELLS Batman to bring Joker in by the book because they "Have to show him our way works". That was meant to underscore the notion of "Killing Joker = Joker wins, so don't do it". It goes against everything else the issue was moving towards and sours the entire vibe of the book.

3: Alan Moore is a ridiculously meticulous script writer who writes absolutely everything he intends to be in the story in the script. He frames the entire shot for the artist including exactly where the characters appear, how much of them is in the shot, their facial expressions, the works. He even gives introspection into the characters' minds that aren't exactly necessary for the artist to accurately draw the scene. his script is available, you can read it. Here's what he wrote for the scene as to his explanation of what was going through Batman's head at the time:

3.
NOW JUST A HALF FIGURE OR HEAD AND SHOULDERS SHOT OF THE BAMTAN FROM THE FRONT. THE ABSURDITY OF THE SITUATION COMES HOME TO HIM, AND ONE CORNER OF HIS MOUTH TWITCHES UPWARDS. HE AND THE JOKER ARE GOING TO KILL EACH OTHER ONE DAY. IT'S PREORDAINED. THEY MAY AS WELL ENJOY THIS ONE RARE MOMENT OF CONTACT WHILE IT LASTS.
THE BATMAN: heh

4.
NOW WE PULL BACK FOR A THREE QUARTER FIGURE SHOT. THEY STAND FACING EACH OTHER, BOTH OF THEM LAUGHING NOW. THE JOKER GIGGLES HELPLESSLY INTO HIS HAND, THE BATMAN MORE OPENLY. LOOKING BEHIND THEM WE CAN SEE THE LIGHTS OF A COUPLE OF POLICE CARS APPROACHING THROUGH THE DARKNESS AND RAIN. THE WHITE AND BLUE LIGHTS ARE STILL QUITE DISTANT HERE, HARDLY NOTICEABLE.
JOKER: HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE
BATMAN: HEH HEH HEH HEH HEH"

5.
NOW WE SEE THEM FULL FIGURE. THERE IS A LARGE PUDDLE AT THEIR FEET. THEY ARE NOW BOTH HELPLESS WITH LAUGHTER AND HAVE COLLAPSED FORWARD ONTO EACH OTHER, BOTH RAGGED AND BLOODY, EACH HOLDING THE OTHER UP AS THEY STAND THERE CLINGING TOGETHER IN THE RAIN. THE WHITE AND BLUE LIGHTS THAT APPROACH THEM FROM THE RAINY DARKNESS BEYOND ARE BIGGER NOW, AND THERE IS A SMALL THIN LINE OF RED SOUND EFFECT LETTERING WIDDING RIGHT ACROSS THE PANEL FROM LEFT TO RIGHT AS THEIR SIRENS BECOME AUDIBLE.
THE BATMAN: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
THE JOKER: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
F.X. (APPROACHING SIRENS): vweeeeEEEEeeeeeEEEEEEeeeeeeEEEEEEeeeeee

That's all that is relevant, but if you want to read the whole scene you can find it here as well as more commentary including confirmation from original artist Brian Bolland that he was given no direction from Alan Moore to draw it in any way that even HINTS that Batman was supposed to kill the Joker. I mean, the fact that Batman's hands are on Joker's shoulders is the big supposed "Tell". IE: His hands were supposed to be either in the process of choking Joker, or inching towards grabbing his neck. Even if we decide that this ONE time Alan Moore decided to be vague, wouldn't it make sense that that one ALL IMPORTANT part for the entire "Batman Kills Joker" plot point to work would be included in the script? Just one "Batman's hands are on the Joker's shoulders as they laugh" would have been enough. But no, the intent of the scene based on the script is clear. They were sharing a laugh while the cops came. End of story.


Not saying you have to instantly start loving the story or anything, if you don't like it, you don't like it. However, if your entire reason for not liking it is "Batman Killed the Joker" then you might want to re-read it with this new information and see if you still dislike it when that (clearly false) factor is removed from the equation.

[mikelmcknight72]

I gave it a 4. It is one of my favorite Batman stories, though I would rank Son of the Demon and the classic (pre COIE) Ra's al Ghul stories as 5's on my Batman stories list. I tend to make my mental top ten lists by character, as it is difficult to compare stories of characters who are completely different in tone.

[Lorendiac]

I gave it a 4. It is one of my favorite Batman stories, though I would rank Son of the Demon and the classic (pre COIE) Ra's al Ghul stories as 5's on my Batman stories list. I tend to make my mental top ten lists by character, as it is difficult to compare stories of characters who are completely different in tone.

I understand you. I don't spend much time making personal lists of favorite stories, but if I did, I'd try to focus my thoughts on a certain character or team concept or genre or something. I wouldn't put "one of my favorite Uncle Scrooge stories by Carl Barks" on the same list as "one of my favorite stories about Batman failing to prevent something terrible from happening to one of his loved ones in the grim-and-gritty setting of Gotham City."

Although I might put "my favorite romantic Batman story" on the same list with "my favorite romantic funny-animal story."

Incidentally, just now I looked at the numbers in the poll, for the first time in a long while, and concluded that just a hair under 66 percent of us have given TKJ either 4 or 5 stars out of a possible 5. So nearly two-thirds of us at least agree that it was well above average, even if we disagree on whether or not it was practically perfect in its own way. I think that's about as much of a "consensus" as any large collection of comic book fans is ever going to reach!