Is Storm effectively invincible?

[Sardorim]

It does go that way. You continue to ignore modern stuff yet you pull decades old stuff which you purposely are cherry picking to suit your argument. Fact is that as far as Marvel is concerned Modern > Decades Old Stuff unless they say otherwise and that's only in rare exceptions.

What a character did 50 or so years ago doesn't matter or is even acknowledge for the most part in Modern times unless it fits a certain story arc than is promptly forgotten in the next story.

Fact is that in Modern times Xavier is literally the most powerful Telepath, and hasn't been refuted in modern times, and it's canonically stated that Rachel is the most powerful Telepath after him and with his death she's the most powerful. Despite Psylocke and Emma being powerful they aren't mentioned by Xavier - Rachel is.

Which says a lot as Psylocke can literally move mountains.

Than there's whole Rachel hasn't reached her full potential yet so she still has room to grow even stronger.

Uncanny Avengers also proved that Xavier is so powerful that an untrained, untested, and unskilled with TP Red Skull is literally an Omega-Level with Xavier's power and is easily crushing heroes that have strong TP resistance and training.

Exodus was also canonically, in modern times, taken out very quickly by a new Beyond Omega. Considering that Rachel is set to appear after Will is over with she wont suffer his fate and will show a greater mastery and power than when Exodus confronted the target.

You may not like it but Modern > Decades Old Content which Marvel has proven is the case time and again.

[Rosa Snarks]

You could buy the issue. They literally tell Rachel that if Storm doesn't stop she'll kill their comrades, are freaking out over such a display of power, and Rachel than says that Storm never went out like that before which says a lot as they've teamed up a lot before.

Fact is that Storm was intent on trying to destroy Bloodline, which is more than a simple Forest and was huge threat, and kept zapping it with everything she had but it wasn't having any effect, despite Storm torching portions of it, and would have killed their comrades. Despite seeing Storm unleash her power like never before Rachel still stood up to Storm and was more than willing and confident that she could stop Storm and save their comrades. Storm knew this, that's why she stopped without a fight when Rachel got her in a hold.

Afterward Storm was forced to acknowledge Rachel's power, that Rachel deserved to be on the team, that shouldn't replace Rachel with Tean on a whim, that Rachel could stop her if she wanted, and that Rachel was becoming a very skilled leader.

Storm was humbled and it took a lot of character development and growth for her to admit that she was wrong about Rachel.

Okay.... If Storm waa giving it everything she had, the team would've been dead. Storm has more in her arsenal than heat.

[Sardorim]

Okay.... If Storm waa giving it everything she had, the team would've been dead. Storm has more in her arsenal than heat.

Storm was blindly lashing out at the entire forest, only Monet was actually in direct range for impact by the time Rachel stopped Storm and despite your belief that Storm is all powerful she didn't even hurt Monet all that bad as Monet shrugged it off when they found her.

Furthermore, Storm was using her full power on attacking that way. If she was using other elements as well it would have taken power and concentration away from what she was doing.

Concentrated Attacks > Spamming everything all at once with no focus.

[rutog98]

It does go that way. You continue to ignore modern stuff yet you pull decades old stuff which you purposely are cherry picking to suit your argument. Fact is that as far as Marvel is concerned Modern > Decades Old Stuff unless they say otherwise and that's only in rare exceptions.

What a character did 50 or so years ago doesn't matter or is even acknowledge for the most part in Modern times unless it fits a certain story arc than is promptly forgotten in the next story.

Fact is that in Modern times Xavier is literally the most powerful Telepath, and hasn't been refuted in modern times, and it's canonically stated that Rachel is the most powerful Telepath after him and with his death she's the most powerful. Despite Psylocke and Emma being powerful they aren't mentioned by Xavier - Rachel is.

Which says a lot as Psylocke can literally move mountains.

Than there's whole Rachel hasn't reached her full potential yet so she still has room to grow even stronger.

Uncanny Avengers also proved that Xavier is so powerful that an untrained, untested, and unskilled with TP Red Skull is literally an Omega-Level with Xavier's power and is easily crushing heroes that have strong TP resistance and training.

Exodus was also canonically, in modern times, taken out very quickly by a new Beyond Omega. Considering that Rachel is set to appear after Will is over with she wont suffer his fate and will show a greater mastery and power than when Exodus confronted the target.

You may not like it but Modern > Decades Old Content which Marvel has proven is the case time and again.

Okay, I have posted plenty of feats SK, Xavier and Exodus have done placing them on a level much higher than Jean while at the same time showing Jean's limits which are far below their's (and below Emma's as well). Meanwhile, I have asked you to back up your claims about Jean's and Rachel's psi powers with feats they have done. Why are you unable to produce such feats? You know why? Its not reality. They have no such feats without the PF. While I will admit that Rachel is a stronger telepath than Emma Frost, non-PF Jean Grey is not. Neither Jean nor Rachel are equal to Exodus, Xavier or SK either.

Regarding the Betsy/Rachel comparison you made, the writer (Claremont) who wrote Betsy's TK at levels able to move mountains clearly established that her TK was on a level Rachel could not match. If subsequent writers have stated Rachel is now a more powerful TK than Betsy, then I'm going to ask you for scans where those writers wrote Betsy's TK on the same level as Claremont.

Also, why do I get the feeling when Xavier said Jean was more powerful than he, it was during the Morrison run when Jean clearly had the PF? That does not count since she was wielding the power of a cosmic entity.

I did not see the story where Exodus was bested by that new Beyond Omega thing. What I do know, however, is he is stronger than either Rachel or Jean Grey if neither woman is wielding the PF. You are going to have to provide instances of Jean and Rachel accomplishing feats without the PF comparable to the high end TP feats of Xavier and SK and TK feats comparable to Exodus.

Also, Windrider already debunked your claims about Ororo and Rachel revolving around the forest heat wave thing.

[Ethereal Stormultt]

I mean if she's this 'untouchable' thing to you right now then I couldn't fathom what she'd be if writers actually wrote her to how powerful she SHOULD be.

[Sardorim]

Okay, I have posted plenty of feats SK, Xavier and Exodus have done placing them on a level much higher than Jean while at the same time showing Jean's limits which are far below their's (and below Emma's as well). Meanwhile, I have asked you to back up your claims about Jean's and Rachel's psi powers with feats they have done. Why are you unable to produce such feats? You know why? Its not reality. They have no such feats without the PF. While I will admit that Rachel is a stronger telepath than Emma Frost, non-PF Jean Grey is not. Neither Jean nor Rachel are equal to Exodus, Xavier or SK either.

Regarding the Betsy/Rachel comparison you made, the writer (Claremont) who wrote Betsy's TK at levels able to move mountains clearly established that her TK was on a level Rachel could not match. If subsequent writers have stated Rachel is now a more powerful TK than Betsy, then I'm going to ask you for scans where those writers wrote Betsy's TK on the same level as Claremont.

Also, why do I get the feeling when Xavier said Jean was more powerful than he, it was during the Morrison run when Jean clearly had the PF? That does not count since she was wielding the power of a cosmic entity.

I did not see the story where Exodus was bested by that new Beyond Omega thing. What I do know, however, is he is stronger than either Rachel or Jean Grey if neither woman is wielding the PF. You are going to have to provide instances of Jean and Rachel accomplishing feats without the PF comparable to the high end TP feats of Xavier and SK and TK feats comparable to Exodus.

Also, Windrider already debunked your claims about Ororo and Rachel revolving around the forest heat wave thing.

You posted decades old stuff and aren't acknowledging the modern stuff.

In modern times Xavier is canonically the most powerful, skilled, and experienced Telepath and he outright tells Rachel that she's after him and that she hasn't reached her potential yet.

TP doesn't = TK. Psylocke may be at a level in TK that Rachel, without the Phoenix, isn't at yet as Rachel still hasn't reached her potential. Yet Rachel is more powerful with TP than Psylocke as stated in modern times that Rachel has no equal in TP after Xavier.

It doesn't matter who wrote what. Xavier has acknowledged multiple times that Jean is the most powerful and he has been fearful of her losing control even without the Phoenix as he knows how powerful she is.

It's in Uncanny X-Men, Exodus was literally killed the moment the Beyond Omega learned of his presence and that's the most modern appearance of Exodus.

I mean if she's this 'untouchable' thing to you right now then I couldn't fathom what she'd be if writers actually wrote her to how powerful she SHOULD be.

I'm pretty sure Marvel has the final say on how powerful a character is and Storm is as powerful as she should be.

[Rosa Snarks]

Good thing they took Claremont away from her, he has her stacked power wise.

[RoguishGurl]

If you can't reply to each other about different opinions on this subject without resorting to rudeness this thread will be closed. Be respectful of your fellow posters. You can disagree with each other, but insulting posts and rudeness are not going to be tolerated.

[Wind Rider]

Post deleted. OK noted.

[Wind Rider]

Can someone post scans of Monet or whoever saying ororo was going all out? Because if a heatwave is her going all out vs her breaking the rules of nature, I'd hate to see her go batsh*t insane.

Okay.... If Storm waa giving it everything she had, the team would've been dead. Storm has more in her arsenal than heat.

It's another instance that never actually happened. It was not stated on panel that Storm was going all out lol (we know he can do a lot more when she does), and we don't even see Monet being in the blast radius. All we knew was that she was snagged out of the sky by Bloodline and smashed into the ground, and no one could locate her. No one saw M until after Storm's attack hurt Bloodline. That was the end of it and is one of the scans I posted a few pages back with what actually happened.

Okay, I have posted plenty of feats SK, Xavier and Exodus have done placing them on a level much higher than Jean while at the same time showing Jean's limits which are far below their's (and below Emma's as well). Meanwhile, I have asked you to back up your claims about Jean's and Rachel's psi powers with feats they have done. Why are you unable to produce such feats? You know why? Its not reality. They have no such feats without the PF. While I will admit that Rachel is a stronger telepath than Emma Frost, non-PF Jean Grey is not. Neither Jean nor Rachel are equal to Exodus, Xavier or SK either.

Regarding the Betsy/Rachel comparison you made, the writer (Claremont) who wrote Betsy's TK at levels able to move mountains clearly established that her TK was on a level Rachel could not match. If subsequent writers have stated Rachel is now a more powerful TK than Betsy, then I'm going to ask you for scans where those writers wrote Betsy's TK on the same level as Claremont.

Also, why do I get the feeling when Xavier said Jean was more powerful than he, it was during the Morrison run when Jean clearly had the PF? That does not count since she was wielding the power of a cosmic entity.

I did not see the story where Exodus was bested by that new Beyond Omega thing. What I do know, however, is he is stronger than either Rachel or Jean Grey if neither woman is wielding the PF. You are going to have to provide instances of Jean and Rachel accomplishing feats without the PF comparable to the high end TP feats of Xavier and SK and TK feats comparable to Exodus.

Also, Windrider already debunked your claims about Ororo and Rachel revolving around the forest heat wave thing.

In the recent issue of Uncanny Bendis's new plot mutant "killed" Exodus pretty easily (no confirmation of death) but he was definitely F'd up. Since Exodus easily fought off Rachel's TP in X-Men Legacy while fighting a whole team of powerful X-Men, I'm not sure this bodes well for Rachel.

[Striderblack01]

So.

Here is everything I could find on Storm's fights:

Loss - Magneto (wire cables) [Uncanny X-men #104]
Loss - Magneto (?) [X-men #112]
Loss - Sauron (?) [Uncanny X-men #114]
Loss - Emma Frost (mind blast) [X-men #129]
Loss - Magneto (Colossus/defenestration) [Uncanny X-men #150]
Win - Emma Frost (wind headkick) [Uncanny X-men #152]
Win - Callisto (stab) [Uncanny X-men #169-170]

(post mohawk)

Loss - Broken Ribs-clops (optic blast) [Uncanny X-men #175]
Win - Crymore-clops (visor removal) [Uncanny X-men #201]
Win - Candra (punches) [X-men Unlimited #7?]
Win - Marrow (heart removal) [Uncanny X-men #325]
Loss - Thor (kiss) [Contest of Champions II]
Draw - Tenta-Callisto [X-Treme X-men #36]
Loss - T'challa (marriage) [Black Panther #18]
Win - Shadow-clops (lightning) [X-men Worlds Apart #4]
Draw - Thor clone [Black Panther #25]
Loss - War Machine (taser) [X-men #20]
Loss - Valkyrie (hammer2face) [Fear Itself: The Fearless #9]
Win - T'Challa (punches/annulment) [AVX VS #5]
Loss - Jean/Phoenix (No More Humans)
Win - Faithful John (tp resistance/lightning) [Wolverine and the X-men #3]

-unverified-
Win - various psychics
Loss - some kinda tiger humanoid

Ororo Monroe Fight Record
8 wins, 10 losses, 2 draws

Basically, she got pwn'd by Magneto a lot in the pre-mohawk days.
Feel free to add on to this, as its obviously incomplete.

[rutog98]

In the recent issue of Uncanny Bendis's new plot mutant "killed" Exodus pretty easily (no confirmation of death) but he was definitely F'd up. Since Exodus easily fought off Rachel's TP in X-Men Legacy while fighting a whole team of powerful X-Men, I'm not sure this bodes well for Rachel.

This does not bode well for Rachel at all. Exodus beat Jean the same way everytime they crossed paths as well. Exodus would simply shrug off Jean Grey's TP power and proceeded to demonstrated why he's her better.

Again, neither Jean Grey or Rachel are in the category of Shadow King, Xavier or Exodus. While SK and Xavier are more powerful telepaths than Exodus (which really highlights how non-PF Jean Grey and non-PF Rachel are nowhere near SK or Xavier in actuality), Exodus also exhibits TK powers that places him well above either Jean or Rachel in the TK department as well.

[rutog98]

So.

Here is everything I could find on Storm's fights:

Loss - Magneto (wire cables) [Uncanny X-men #104]
Loss - Magneto (?) [X-men #112]
Loss - Sauron (?) [Uncanny X-men #114]
Loss - Emma Frost (mind blast) [X-men #129]
Loss - Magneto (Colossus/defenestration) [Uncanny X-men #150]
Win - Emma Frost (wind headkick) [Uncanny X-men #152]
Win - Callisto (stab) [Uncanny X-men #169-170]

(post mohawk)

Loss - Broken Ribs-clops (optic blast) [Uncanny X-men #175]
Win - Crymore-clops (visor removal) [Uncanny X-men #201]
Win - Candra (punches) [X-men Unlimited #7?]
Win - Marrow (heart removal) [Uncanny X-men #325]
Loss - Thor (kiss) [Contest of Champions II]
Draw - Tenta-Callisto [X-Treme X-men #36]
Loss - T'challa (marriage) [Black Panther #18]
Win - Shadow-clops (lightning) [X-men Worlds Apart #4]
Draw - Thor clone [Black Panther #25]
Loss - War Machine (taser) [X-men #20]
Loss - Valkyrie (hammer2face) [Fear Itself: The Fearless #9]
Win - T'Challa (punches/annulment) [AVX VS #5]
Loss - Jean/Phoenix (No More Humans)
Win - Faithful John (tp resistance/lightning) [Wolverine and the X-men #3]

-unverified-
Win - various psychics
Loss - some kinda tiger humanoid

Ororo Monroe Fight Record
8 wins, 10 losses, 2 draws

Basically, she got pwn'd by Magneto a lot in the pre-mohawk days.
Feel free to add on to this, as its obviously incomplete.

Sauron caught Storm by surprise, if I remember correctly in that story. That said, Storm has beaten Sauron in a straight up fight while she was very weak and he was at peak strength.

Regarding the Storm/Magneto fights, there's a lot of PIS instances in there coupled with the fact Storm holds back against him even moreso than she does against other characters just so he can win. Magneto has even stated that Storm would beat him if she did not hold back. This is acknowledgement is made even WITH Storm being written down to prop him up.

Regarding Storm vs. Emma, while Emma did beat Storm in their first encounter, Storm's mental defenses grew since then and she's beaten Emma Frost twice in battle after the aforementioned instance you brought up.

In this thread, we are talking about how formidable Storm is when written at her best. PIS instances don't count.

[Striderblack01]

Sauron caught Storm by surprise, if I remember correctly in that story. That said, Storm has beaten Sauron in a straight up fight while she was very weak and he was at peak strength.

Regarding the Storm/Magneto fights, there's a lot of PIS instances in there coupled with the fact Storm holds back against him even moreso than she does against other characters just so he can win. Magneto has even stated that Storm would beat him if she did not hold back. This is acknowledgement is made even WITH Storm being written down to prop him up.

Regarding Storm vs. Emma, while Emma did beat Storm in their first encounter, Storm's mental defenses grew since then and she's beaten Emma Frost twice in battle after the aforementioned instance you brought up.

In this thread, we are talking about how formidable Storm is when written at her best. PIS instances don't count.

The goal of my post was to create a clean account of her actual battles.

So I just wrote down what happened, not what should've happened.
I'll leave those decisions to the readers.

Can I get some issue numbers on the Storm v Emma (x2) and Storm v Sauron please?

[rutog98]

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