The FLASH TV SERIES

[Jim Kelly]

It just occurs to me that whereas other classic DC super-heroes had declared weaknesses, Barry Allen didn't--back when there wasn't any other explanation for his powers than that the lightning accident had made him really fast. But once Mark Waid invented the Speed Force that would have given Wally (and retroactively Barry) a loophole--given that speedsters draw their power from the Speed Force, just as Green Lantern draws his from the battery of power and Superman from the yellow sun.

All a mad scientist would have to do is invent a device that cuts off Barry's connection to the Speed Force, then sell this device (call it a speed gun) on the open market to crimedom. That would give metahumans a reason for knocking over banks and jewelry stores, to raise the cash for a speed gun. Just say that all the major rogues have one of these and it explains why they get the jump on the Flash.

[LifeIsILL]

I agree but its hard to do they have trouble avoiding it in the comics as well.

I don't remember him doing this much in the comics. If he can catch the guy he will do it immediately.

I just don't like how the CW Flash or Arrow need a team to help them. They are usually solo in the comics so why do they need a team on the show? Now I don't mind them bringing in the team once in a while but every episode is ridiculous.

This has been the case since Flash Comics #1 in 1939. No one is really a threat to a person with that kind of speed. It's been true all through the comics and will continue to be true all through the TV show. If you're not going to accept that and just go with it, there is very little possibility you'll ever be satisfied with the show because of its very premise. This series has its problems, but the fact that Barry doesn't end every fight with a non-speedster in .05 seconds is the very, very least of its problems, and not even close to the reason why the writing is bad.

Have you actually read those comics?

Jay Garrick usually knocks out bad guys in a few seconds.

[Elmo]

It just occurs to me that whereas other classic DC super-heroes had declared weaknesses, Barry Allen didn't--back when there wasn't any other explanation for his powers than that the lightning accident had made him really fast. But once Mark Waid invented the Speed Force that would have given Wally (and retroactively Barry) a loophole--given that speedsters draw their power from the Speed Force, just as Green Lantern draws his from the battery of power and Superman from the yellow sun.

All a mad scientist would have to do is invent a device that cuts off Barry's connection to the Speed Force, then sell this device (call it a speed gun) on the open market to crimedom. That would give metahumans a reason for knocking over banks and jewelry stores, to raise the cash for a speed gun. Just say that all the major rogues have one of these and it explains why they get the jump on the Flash.

That would get old soooooo fast, trust me.

[hulahulk]

Barry's new costume will have a big "S" on the chest. For "Stupid".

[Speed Force League Unlimited]

This revelation is BULLSHIT.

[Kirby101]

I can't think of any good reason that Barry would ever kill Iris. Whatever idiotic, convoluted idea they give will be hard to take seriouusly.

[ZeroBG82]

I can't think of any good reason that Barry would ever kill Iris. Whatever idiotic, convoluted idea they give will be hard to take seriouusly.

Really? Because I can think of several, and most aren't that convoluted at all. Take, for example, the simplest: it's easy for people to grow to hate the things they claim to love when things go badly. Barry loses Iris. He is broken. He finds new purpose in becoming Savitar, going all dark side. Now he views his prior attachments as a weakness that held him back. The things he loved were just obstacles to his true purpose and power. Ergo, kill Iris and destroy Barry's relationships.

Especially true if we're seeing a bootstrap paradox, though I'm not sure we are.

Savitar isn't just doing any of this for the heck of it. Barry himself points it out at the end of the episode. It's all about TIME with Savitar. He's a Barry who has chosen to ignore Jay's warnings and become a time meddler. He's Flashpoint writ large. A Barry who will change time on a whim. This is why Jay warned Barry all the way back in the first episode of the season. That wasn't just a quiet way to educate Barry on the dangers of his actions, it was active foreshadowing.

[Kirby101]

Really? Because I can think of several, and most aren't that convoluted at all. Take, for example, the simplest: it's easy for people to grow to hate the things they claim to love when things go badly. Barry loses Iris. He is broken. He finds new purpose in becoming Savitar, going all dark side. Now he views his prior attachments as a weakness that held him back. The things he loved were just obstacles to his true purpose and power. Ergo, kill Iris and destroy Barry's relationships.

Especially true if we're seeing a bootstrap paradox, though I'm not sure we are.

Savitar isn't just doing any of this for the heck of it. Barry himself points it out at the end of the episode. It's all about TIME with Savitar. He's a Barry who has chosen to ignore Jay's warnings and become a time meddler. He's Flashpoint writ large. A Barry who will change time on a whim. This is why Jay warned Barry all the way back in the first episode of the season. That wasn't just a quiet way to educate Barry on the dangers of his actions, it was active foreshadowing.

That is convoluted and I don't buy someone like Barry becoming that evil. Especially since his turning point would be losing Iris.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Barry as Savitar doesn't really make much sense but it has been pretty obvious for a while now. The bigger problem isn't Savitar and his identity, though, it's kind of everything to do with the writing. The cast is so great that I'm still nowhere close to dropping this show but they really need to fire all the writers on this show and start again. Everything that made this show great (well, really good) in the first place has been eroded over time. The sense of fun and silver age goofiness has been replaced by gloominess and increasingly tiresome soap operatics. And, yes, the less said about overused tropes like evil speedsters, time travel and the team keeping secrets from one another. Most problematic, though, is Barry himself who hasn't just failed to evolve over the past three seasons, he has gotten significantly worse with each passing year; failing spectacularly to align the character who has become gloomier with each passing season with the genuine natural charm and likability of Grant Gustin. The show is still certainly salvagable but it needs a serious overhall next season for it to get its mojo back.

On the other hand, Supergirl is flawed but still super enjoyable and after a lackluster first season, Legends of Tomorrow has really come into its own with season 2, which has been ludicrously entertaining and is the easy standout of the three DC shows I'm watching this season.

[AJBopp]

Have you actually read those comics?

Jay Garrick usually knocks out bad guys in a few seconds.

Yes I have read many of those comics. He knocks out street thugs quickly...but not before monologuing while supposedly running at them at super speed (silver age Flash did the same thing, but he would have entire conversations with people like Mirror Master at full speed). Main villains though...no, Jay didn't knock those guys out in a few seconds, even the ones that were not super powered. If he did, there would be no comic and there would be little point to the Justice Society.

[AJBopp]

That is convoluted and I don't buy someone like Barry becoming that evil. Especially since his turning point would be losing Iris.

It will be interesting to see Savitar's origin in a way that doesn't include dialog like

"When this happened..."

"....and then..."

"...but because of...."

"...and in the future...."

"...but meanwhile in the past..."

"...but while eternity passes without time in the Speed Force..."

"...and then on Earth 3...."

"...and that's how Barry became Savitar!"

But not interesting enough for me to make a special effort to watch it.

[LifeIsILL]

Yes I have read many of those comics. He knocks out street thugs quickly...but not before monologuing while supposedly running at them at super speed (silver age Flash did the same thing, but he would have entire conversations with people like Mirror Master at full speed). Main villains though...no, Jay didn't knock those guys out in a few seconds, even the ones that were not super powered. If he did, there would be no comic and there would be little point to the Justice Society.

I don't ever remember him struggling with any bad guy in those early comics. They cherished in having him being more powerful than anyone. The only reason he didn't knock out the main villains quick is because it usually takes him a while to solve the mystery or the case. Once he has that figured out, it's a wrap for those guys.

If you're talking about All-Star Comics the baddies in there were a bit more powerful, some of them were cosmic entities or genies, and the stories usually had the teams spread out across the globe on their missions so I supposed Jay was a bit weaker there.

[PyroTwilight]

So...based on this episode to make at least SOME of the story make sense I have to assume Savitar's not the future Barry, close, but not fully.

The Future Barry of 2024 (was that the date?) mentioned the use of Time Remnants to battle Savitar and that most of them were killed. Perhaps one survived with Barry only being vaguely aware of it. That remnant escaped through time going insane trying to figure out other ways to either survive/save Iris. And at some point simply broke his mind and accepted his fate as Savitar.

The real question is how this ties into Flashpoint. Alchemy/Savitar went after meta's that existed in Flashpoint. Our Barry never knew those meta's but it's I believe even said that Savitar went after them BECAUSE he knew who they were already.

Still...this is all really convoluted and I HOPE this gets explained in some sensible way because I'm sitting here wondering how any of this works if Barry himself kills Iris based on this loop.

Not to mention we'll have to find out where Barrytar got his suit.

[Frontier]

The real question is how this ties into Flashpoint. Alchemy/Savitar went after meta's that existed in Flashpoint. Our Barry never knew those meta's but it's I believe even said that Savitar went after them BECAUSE he knew who they were already.

I think Savitar mentioned being able to witness all of Flashpoint from the Speed Force, which is how he knew about the Flashpoint Metas like Wally as Kid Flash and found an opportunity to escape.

[Nate Grey]

Interesting read on bootstrap paradox.

Jim was on to something, IMO, in regards to entropy. Cut and pasted from the above link:

Law of Entropy: Another problem associated with a bootstrap paradox is an apparent violation of the second-law of Thermodynamics, which states that systems always flow from a state of order to a state of disorder. This would suggest that an object or information trapped within a time loop would continue to age and eventually disintegrate. We touched upon this earlier with the pocket watch in Somewhere In Time, which one would have expected to get older as it progressed through the cycle. In which case, the item cannot be the same as the one sent back in time, which creates a contradiction and raises the prospect of Theseus’ paradox, and the question of identity. Furthermore, the watch ultimately wearing out would also indicate a discontinuity in the story, as Jane Seymour could then have never have received it as a young woman and the time loop could never have started.

Emphasis mine. Oh and Theseus's paradox, for those wondering.

So what could be happening here is a dark version of Groundhog's day. From Savitar's perspective, he's relived these events perhaps a million times, if not more, and as a result is quite insane. The scar that looks like a side of his face has been burned could actually be entropy in effect, just halted thanks to the suit. But even the suit will degrade, hence his need for Caitlin. But if he's that insane that he doesn't care about people anymore, I think her life is in danger. He'll figure out some way to obtain her powers and kill her, but only after she's helped him.

If what created Savitar was Flashpoint, then the only way to fix all of this, IMO, is another speedster, without Barry's knowledge, going back in time and stopping him from creating Flashpoint in the first place. It might break the cycle, unless Barry was always destined to create Flashpoint which is a whole other can of worms.