From a Golden Age: The Invaders Appreciation

[Chief Jon]

while i read and loved The Marvels Project i never read The Twelve. is it really that good?

It started out incredibly strong, but felt a bit rushed over the last few issues following the disruption to the publishing schedule. That said, it is really pretty good in my opinion.

[Rheged]

I think they appeared on the sidelines in both The Twelve: Spearhead #1 (Blue Diamond for sure) and The Marvels Project.

Also, HOW DID IT TAKE ME SO LONG TO FIND THIS THREAD?

LOL! I thought I had mentioned it before. But glad you are here now!

Yeah, they probably were hanging on the wall in Avengers / Invaders (literally wallpaper) too, but I didn't recall them having some sort of speaking role in any of the newer stuff.

while i read and loved The Marvels Project i never read The Twelve. is it really that good?

It started out incredibly strong, but felt a bit rushed over the last few issues following the disruption to the publishing schedule. That said, it is really pretty good in my opinion.

The wait was excruciating. But now you can buy the hardcover or trade and not have to deal with that.

And yes, I liked it too. In some ways better than The Marvels Project, which was really a retelling with a few retcons of the Golden Age highlights. The Twelve was a new story, using the old characters.

With the Invaders and the Twelve, Marvel has brought so many of their older heroes into the present day. I'd really like to see them give the same treatement to Brian Falsworth. Bringing back Destroyer would be great too.

You mean resurrect him? Hmmmmm. I'll have to think on that.

[Alvarez]

It makes me pretty happy to see the Twelve getting some love in this thread.
I was all over it when it first came out and during it's LOOOOONG hiatus I never gave up hope.

"Come the darkness, I still believe."

[Rheged]

It makes me pretty happy to see the Twelve getting some love in this thread.
I was all over it when it first came out and during it's LOOOOONG hiatus I never gave up hope.

"Come the darkness, I still believe."

I wasn't quite as confident as you, but I was thrilled to be proven wrong.

Now if only an editor would get behind finishing ALL WINNERS SQUAD. I heard Carmine DiG had actually drawn the issues, but I'm I'm not sure if that's true or not.

[Rheged]

Marvel.com did this list!

Five of the Invaders Biggest Battles

I like some of their choices, but I don't think a What If? story should count. And even if it was sort of their first appearance, I wouldn't say Avengers 71 was one of their biggest either. Fighting Master Man to save Churchill in their origin story, yes. That would be on my list.

And that Invaders Now might count also, since it wasn't just a plague, but ended up being huge amounts of guilt and Shuma Gorath too!

[Nomads1]

Marvel.com did this list!

Five of the Invaders Biggest Battles

I like some of their choices, but I don't think a What If? story should count. And even if it was sort of their first appearance, I wouldn't say Avengers 71 was one of their biggest either. Fighting Master Man to save Churchill in their origin story, yes. That would be on my list.

And that Invaders Now might count also, since it wasn't just a plague, but ended up being huge amounts of guilt and Shuma Gorath too!

Not a good list in my humble opinion. To beguin with, numbrr 3, Invaders against the Nazi was, if I'm not mistaken, the cover of #12, the first part of the Golem storyline, which was Spitfire's intro. The REAL Invaders vs Nazi goes from #16-22, and has the Invaders actually go up against Adolf Hitler, with added bonus of Master Man and Warrior Woman, and intros the second Union Jack. That is the true Invaders vs Nazi's saga (a terible mistake for Marvel's official site to make). I do think the the Battles against Axis America and Super-Axis were much more impressive than the clash against the Avengers or even the first battle against Master Man, despite it being the Invaders origin. I love the What If, and it's pratically canon nowadays, but still think there are others more impressive, the battle gainst the Liberty Legion for one. The Christos Gage mini really doesn't square much points with me, but mostly dur to the art. The story is okay. And, they could have done worse. They could have put Invadres vs Avengers maxi-series in it's place. As a "modern" take, my favorite would be the Marvel Universe first three issues, Eve of Destruction, by Stern and Epting, and Marvel Projects does work as a great Invaders origin story.

Peace

[Rheged]

Not a good list in my humble opinion. To beguin with, numbrr 3, Invaders against the Nazi was, if I'm not mistaken, the cover of #12, the first part of the Golem storyline, which was Spitfire's intro. The REAL Invaders vs Nazi goes from #16-22, and has the Invaders actually go up against Adolf Hitler, with added bonus of Master Man and Warrior Woman, and intros the second Union Jack. That is the true Invaders vs Nazi's saga (a terible mistake for Marvel's official site to make). I do think the the Battles against Axis America and Super-Axis were much more impressive than the clash against the Avengers or even the first battle against Master Man, despite it being the Invaders origin.

You'd definitely think going up against Hitler himself would have ranked.

I love the What If, and it's pratically canon nowadays, but still think there are others more impressive, the battle gainst the Liberty Legion for one. The Christos Gage mini really doesn't square much points with me, but mostly dur to the art. The story is okay. And, they could have done worse. They could have put Invadres vs Avengers maxi-series in it's place. As a "modern" take, my favorite would be the Marvel Universe first three issues, Eve of Destruction, by Stern and Epting, and Marvel Projects does work as a great Invaders origin story.

Peace

Have to disagree. That's one of the retcons in Marvel's Project I didn't care for at all. Saving Churchill was awesome, and he gave them their name!

I found the Avengers / Invaders mini-series to be a bit of a mess and too drawn out. Yes, the art was better, but the story was better in Invaders Now, for me. Eve of Destruction was more of a classic Invaders tale, but I like the moral quandry of Invaders Now.

Yeah, I think there's some confusion over what counts as biggest. Is it biggest as in the fight or the importance to Invaders history or does he mean favorite?

[Nomads1]

You'd definitely think going up against Hitler himself would have ranked.

Yep.

Have to disagree. That's one of the retcons in Marvel's Project I didn't care for at all. Saving Churchill was awesome, and he gave them their name!

I may be remembering wrong ( I only read MP once, and it has been awhile ago), but MP doesn't necessarily contradict Giant Size Invaders, other than showing that that wasn't necessarily the first meeting of the heroes, giving them some more back story. I may be wrong, but I remember liking Marvel Projects. Might have to read it again.

I

found the Avengers / Invaders mini-series to be a bit of a mess and too drawn out. Yes, the art was better, but the story was better in Invaders Now, for me. Eve of Destruction was more of a classic Invaders tale, but I like the moral quandry of Invaders Now.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, I Do think Putting A/I in the place of Invaders Now would make for a worse list. I share your opinion on it. I'm a fan of Gage and, storywise, he didn't disappoint me in Invaders Now. Another "modern" take that I enjoyed a lot was the Waid/Garney Invaders storyline in Sentinel of Liberty.

Yeah, I think there's some confusion over what counts as biggest. Is it biggest as in the fight or the importance to Invaders history or does he mean favorite?

I agree.

Peace

[Rheged]

I may be remembering wrong ( I only read MP once, and it has been awhile ago), but MP doesn't necessarily contradict Giant Size Invaders, other than showing that that wasn't necessarily the first meeting of the heroes, giving them some more back story. I may be wrong, but I remember liking Marvel Projects. Might have to read it again.

Well, IIRC, in GS Invaders, the heroes had met each other individually, though I didn't get the feeling they had all worked together as a team. But in MP, Namor was being held prisoner until right before Pearl Harbor -- which Merrano has something to do with. I think Torch and Toro get to Pearl Harbor, while Cap and Bucky and Namor are dealing with the Nazi Atlanteans.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, I Do think Putting A/I in the place of Invaders Now would make for a worse list. I share your opinion on it. I'm a fan of Gage and, storywise, he didn't disappoint me in Invaders Now. Another "modern" take that I enjoyed a lot was the Waid/Garney Invaders storyline in Sentinel of Liberty.

Ah, sorry. I was confused about your opinion on A/I.

I loved that propaganda cover Garney did for Sentinel of Liberty -- will have to find it to post. And the story was pretty good, though IIRC, I didn't like the Nazis in Atlantis. Of course, it's probably worth it to see Namor reprimanded by his mom in front of his friends. LOL!

[Loki]

I may be remembering wrong ( I only read MP once, and it has been awhile ago), but MP doesn't necessarily contradict Giant Size Invaders,

I'm afraid you are wrong. Marvels Project contradicts a fair amount of pre-established continuity. As well as showing a different origin for the Invaders, it claims the Destroyer became active after Captain America's debut (per Invaders, Brian Falsworth became the Destroyer within a few days of Germany and Britain declaring war, which would be late 1939, while Steve Rogers became Cap in 1941) and that Falsworth was in Germany because he was a British spy rather than an anti-war appeaser, and it depicts the Ferret dying in 1940 despite Marvel Mystery Comics 70th Anniversary special showing him alive in 1941. Of course, resurrections are hardly unknown in comics, so Ferret might have simply come back from the dead (only in comics can you say that so blasely!), but the simplest way to reconcile things is unreliable narrator syndrome. Marvels Project is Angel's account of events, and so he may well have tweaked details or been misinformed. Hence you could argue he might have covered up that Ferret survived his stabbing to ensure there wasn't a second attempt on the detective's life while the Ferret was incapacitated, and just plain had the wrong information on the other contradictory points.

[Nomads1]

Well, IIRC, in GS Invaders, the heroes had met each other individually, though I didn't get the feeling they had all worked together as a team. But in MP, Namor was being held prisoner until right before Pearl Harbor -- which Merrano has something to do with. I think Torch and Toro get to Pearl Harbor, while Cap and Bucky and Namor are dealing with the Nazi Atlanteans.

I'm afraid you are wrong. Marvels Project contradicts a fair amount of pre-established continuity. As well as showing a different origin for the Invaders, it claims the Destroyer became active after Captain America's debut (per Invaders, Brian Falsworth became the Destroyer within a few days of Germany and Britain declaring war, which would be late 1939, while Steve Rogers became Cap in 1941) and that Falsworth was in Germany because he was a British spy rather than an anti-war appeaser, and it depicts the Ferret dying in 1940 despite Marvel Mystery Comics 70th Anniversary special showing him alive in 1941. Of course, resurrections are hardly unknown in comics, so Ferret might have simply come back from the dead (only in comics can you say that so blasely!), but the simplest way to reconcile things is unreliable narrator syndrome. Marvels Project is Angel's account of events, and so he may well have tweaked details or been misinformed. Hence you could argue he might have covered up that Ferret survived his stabbing to ensure there wasn't a second attempt on the detective's life while the Ferret was incapacitated, and just plain had the wrong information on the other contradictory points.

Okay, I stand corrected.

Ah, sorry. I was confused about your opinion on A/I.

No prob.

Peace

[PhantomReporter]

Rheged - hi. Glad to see you're keeping the GA Marvels tradition alive in a new continuity of the boards. Laziness kept me lurking for many weeks but now i've finally re-registered, i could only give my first post cherry to a Golden Age thread!

Here are some general comments:

THE TWELVE - Loved it and can't understand why no writer has picked up on these great characters now they are here and available. Apart from the story itself, one background but quite vital concept was also introduced - the super hero battle of Berlin. Expanded upon later in Spearhead, we now know that virtually all of the costumed heroes of WWII were called upon/organized together for the closing days of the war - this included most of the homefront Liberty Legion. Continuity has already established that this group was operating for a few weeks in April - possibly they arrived even earlier. A gathering in March perhaps. Lots of story fodder there.

ALL WINNERS: BAND OF HEROES - Military use of costumed heroes mentioned above leads me to the Crazy SUES. Quite apart from wanting the mini finished and the present day based on WWII events mystery resolved, i'd like to see more use of the Crazy Sue concept and more about its origin. With the exception of bCap and Bucky occasionally leading the unit, there are very few marquee names involved, which is great because it makes good use of lots of obscure characters even if sadly a good few die. My feeling is that bigger groups and solo heroes operating elsewhere could have been exempt - The Liberty Legion probably was and my feeling was that Blue Diamond volunteered despite this and was shuttled back n forth between the legion and the SUES over the 1942-45 period. The Fin as a naval operative also made sense and was probably assigned to add season to the ranks. A lot of the unit died but as we have seen some operated in costume on missions and some like The Fin and Father Time, possibly Young Avenger were present at the battle of Berlin. I also feel there are missing stories explaining how uncostumed two fisted adventurers like Flash Foster went from college football to being considered an enhanced fighter between 1940 and 1942. When did Captain Strong leave the Foreign Legion and join the US military - probably after Pearl Harbour but why was an experienced tough officer not allowed some rank retention. Sgt or Cpl at least! I also believe Secret Stamp lied about his age, was wounded as we saw in Aug 1942 and shipped home where he resumed his adventuring.

MARVELS PROJECT - As a whole i liked it but i didn't like a lot of the retconning. Bumping Destroyer's origin to Oct 1941, no big deal but the Namor stuff ... nope. Recently i've been rereading or newly reading volumes 1-6 of Marvel Mystery Masterworks now i have almost the full set plus the first two Sub Mariner, First Torch, First Daring, Mystic, 2 USA's and 3 of 4 All Winners - i have a special fondness for 1939-41 and that was Namor at his best. I would hate to think his adventures during the period he met Luthor and Lynne were written out. If i ever get to write for Marvel i would want to revisit that period. Also been writing scenarios in my brain to reconcile Ferret's fate and the 2009 1941 set Marvel Mystery one shot. What i did like was the starring role for the Angel - a favourite character of mine. In fact i almost had two prose Angel stories published in the 2004 New Invaders (written in the 90's). I was in a correspondence with the writer Allen Jacobsen and he kindly read my stories and offered to include them as backups in several issues of the comic but editorial nixed it and the comic ran its course. Probably for the best as i wasn't as familiar with the character then and wrote him a brand new origin. Talking of ...

2004 NEW INVADERS - I felt it was a comic with potential but let down by the art and a lack of interest at Marvel. Allen was a great guy with some very good ideas and he would have done more - some ironically along the lines of stuff we're just seeing a decade later. I did love his reintroduction and updating of the Thin Man and The Fin as well as his characterization and use of Blazing Skull - actually brought back by Chuck Austin, who despite his own many flaws did enable this brief resurgence to happen and also put Joe Chapman firmly in the frame as a team member. Oh and Allen also used The Destroyer following his comeback in the Thunderbolts.

ALL NEW INVADERS - I have great faith in James Robinson and hope in the long run he can do for Invaders what he did with Starman and the set up/early JSA. I'm very pleased that we're seeing expanded emphasis on the Torch and more Vision with Toro, UJ, Spitfire and Blazing Skull and possibly Red Raven to come plus the new Golden Girl legacy. James performed wonders in 80 issues of Starman plus specials so i really hope he has a good few years at least to work his magic on this title and i wouldn't be surprised if we ended up seeing dozens more obscure and lesser known Timley heroes and revamped/reimagined bad guys plus all the cool modern era stuff which might finally take Invaders to a mainstream audience. I do wonder about Major Liberty though. Seems there must be something more than just randomly dropping him in as a Cap replacement to get killed - especially given his power set!

[5Eyes]

The Twelve .. ahh that's a good one .. I definitely would like to hear more future event of the Black Widow character there..

[Rheged]

I'm afraid you are wrong. Marvels Project contradicts a fair amount of pre-established continuity. As well as showing a different origin for the Invaders, it claims the Destroyer became active after Captain America's debut (per Invaders, Brian Falsworth became the Destroyer within a few days of Germany and Britain declaring war, which would be late 1939, while Steve Rogers became Cap in 1941) and that Falsworth was in Germany because he was a British spy rather than an anti-war appeaser, and it depicts the Ferret dying in 1940 despite Marvel Mystery Comics 70th Anniversary special showing him alive in 1941. Of course, resurrections are hardly unknown in comics, so Ferret might have simply come back from the dead (only in comics can you say that so blasely!), but the simplest way to reconcile things is unreliable narrator syndrome. Marvels Project is Angel's account of events, and so he may well have tweaked details or been misinformed. Hence you could argue he might have covered up that Ferret survived his stabbing to ensure there wasn't a second attempt on the detective's life while the Ferret was incapacitated, and just plain had the wrong information on the other contradictory points.

That's another good example. My feeling was the book was trying to push Cap into a more central role. The Destroyer, Namor, Torch, and others were all fighting Nazis a year and half before Cap was even created. Cap didn't have anything to do with Namor and Torch's iconic battles, much less take out Namor, while Betty Dean's role in their battles, as well as her relationship with Namor, was dismissed.

That's good way to reconcile things, though there's parts that are very unreliable narrator.

Rheged - hi. Glad to see you're keeping the GA Marvels tradition alive in a new continuity of the boards. Laziness kept me lurking for many weeks but now i've finally re-registered, i could only give my first post cherry to a Golden Age thread!

MARVELS PROJECT - As a whole i liked it but i didn't like a lot of the retconning. Bumping Destroyer's origin to Oct 1941, no big deal but the Namor stuff ... nope. Recently i've been rereading or newly reading volumes 1-6 of Marvel Mystery Masterworks now i have almost the full set plus the first two Sub Mariner, First Torch, First Daring, Mystic, 2 USA's and 3 of 4 All Winners - i have a special fondness for 1939-41 and that was Namor at his best. I would hate to think his adventures during the period he met Luthor and Lynne were written out. If i ever get to write for Marvel i would want to revisit that period. Also been writing scenarios in my brain to reconcile Ferret's fate and the 2009 1941 set Marvel Mystery one shot. What i did like was the starring role for the Angel - a favourite character of mine. In fact i almost had two prose Angel stories published in the 2004 New Invaders (written in the 90's). I was in a correspondence with the writer Allen Jacobsen and he kindly read my stories and offered to include them as backups in several issues of the comic but editorial nixed it and the comic ran its course. Probably for the best as i wasn't as familiar with the character then and wrote him a brand new origin. Talking of ...

Hi Phantom Reporter! Good to see you made it to the new forums!

And wow! That would have been awesome! I'd love to have read those stories. They sound like they would have been great for the 70th Anniversary books, too.

You're entirely right about those years of adventures for Namor, because those were done by Bill Everett. He ended up going to war, like most did, and others wrote and drew Namor's stories -- and they weren't as good as Everett's. Wow, Lynne Harris. Not too many folks remember her. And, as I said, there was the stories of Betty Dean convincing Namor to fight the Nazis, instead of all surface dwellers. Good stuff!

[Loki]

Marvel.com did this list!

Five of the Invaders Biggest Battles

I like some of their choices, but I don't think a What If? story should count.

Except, and the Marvel.com writer got it wrong too, that story wasn't a what if, despite appearing in What If? It was established as having happened in the regular Marvel universe (not yet then known as 616) pretty much from the outset.