New 52 WonderWoman is an attempt to make Diana more appealing to a male audience? Agree or disagree?

[numberthirty]

Azzarello's work on Wonder Woman is a materpiece. And that shows... the DC film universe will use his 3 years old origin instead of the classic one. Why? It's not because the Clay origin was bad, it's just that making her a daughter of Zeus is better (considering that it's given the same amount of care Azzarello did).

While I am a huge fan of this run, I doubt that it being "better" is why they chose to go with this origin.

[Robotman]

So trying to give Wonder Woman a broader appeal is a bad thing? Many of us comic book fans forget that the character doesn't belong to us. If you want her to thrive for years to come she may have to have a wider appeal. If she becomes too much of a fringe character she could definitely have a bleak future as Warner Bros. will be more reluctant to push her. They already have little faith in her as is. I don't want to see Carol Danvers or Black Widow over take Wonder Woman in 20 years because they've had more mainstream appearances than her.
You're favorite version of the character is still out there. He'll, Wonder Woman '77 is on it's way. But in order to bring in new fans she may have to be more of a character that is enjoyed by both boys and girls. A lot of comic book readers discovered comics through main stream outlets like tv shows and movies. Or casual fans who are drawn in by event books. So having a broad marketable appeal is important. Once they discover the character they can delve into old stories and find out more about them and figure out why they are so iconic. Then they can choose for themselves what version they prefer.
As far as Azz's run goes I love it. Geoff Johns' version of Diana is terrible. A simpleton who prefers to hack and slash her way out of problems. He really tried to make her lady Thor. Azz's run has captured the essence of the character. She has embraced her enemies and turned one time adversaries into allies and she's done so with her compassion and bravery. Almost everyone standing behind her as she goes into battle with The First Born was at one time an enemy. Wonder Woman changing lives with love.

[Mel Dyer]

If only Mr. Azzarello had been allowed to write a Wondy-Orion romance, it might have shown that Diana's real power. Orion was a prisoner of his heritage and its ugliness, as son of Darkseid, and she freed him to a higher level of self-appreciation.

[brettc1]

Geoff Johns' version of Diana is terrible. A simpleton who prefers to hack and slash her way out of problems. He really tried to make her lady Thor.

Damn! Why so down on Thor?

[borntohula]

Interesting! If that were the case, though, wouldn't she have told Diana that in #3? "I went so him so that I could bring you into the world" seems like an easier story to tell your daughter than "he and passionately fell for each other, and then you came along." Also, she seems to imply that she would have kept Zeus if she could; she says "I soon learned that capturing a god has scant to do with keeping him," or something like that. And I got the impression that Azz really wanted Hippolyta and Zeus to be a story of passion--not just someone using someone.

Yeah, forgot a bit about the passion bit when I wrote it. But I think Zeus nature of leaving -bastards- probably will play into the birth of Diana in some way. Perhaps they both tried to fight it, his nature of doing so.

One guess I have at the moment, somewhat along these lines, is that Hippolyta was secretly made of clay in the first place--maybe, for example, by Athena, who animated her by infusing her with the spirit of Gaea (let's say), making a her a powerful protector/queen for the Amazons. This could be why Athena thought of the lie that Diana was made of clay, and it could be why Hera failed to turn Hippolyta back; she may have willed Hippolyta to return to her original form, not realizing that clay actually was her original form. Whatever enchantment animated her might also have made her powerful enough to be a possible threat to Zeus, which might explain why he came to see her (if he did come to her and not the other way around) and how she was able to match him "sinew for sinew" and all that. It could also explain why Wonder Woman, even before becoming War, was more powerful than the other non-enthroned children of Zeus; she brought together the power of Zeus and Hippolyta. Perhaps Zeus realized that this made Wonder Woman potentially powerful enough to defeat the First Born, so he engineered events so that when the FB came back, he (Zeus) would be absent and Wonder Woman would be on her way to becoming War and colliding with the First Born.

Something like that?

Perhaps Zeus figured First born where to learn something about mercy and humility from Wonder Woman, which Sea tells FB in WW#18 about why Zeus didn't kill him in the first place, which also the oracles in WW#First born says Zeus was mind blown about his son's -what I guess was thanks to his- tenacity. Perhaps the foresaw a similar thing happening with FB and Diana.

Since Zeus blood runs so deep in FB that he felt entitled to everything since birth, perhaps Zeus also thought FB also would be able to be impressed. And perhaps -if so- he was somewhat right since FB tried to force her into marrying her.

The problem of perfection does seem to be a big theme--besides 31, there's also 23, where Diana tells Orion that she started to become "better" when she stopped trying to be "perfect." It also reminds me of 2, when Hermes said that Wonder Woman was the ultimate Amazon because she was untainted by male seed. It seems like some of her peers--at least Aleka--might have resented Diana's "untainted" perfection, so what you're saying would make for a nice, awful symmetry; while resenting Diana for being "perfect," they also resented men for having the freedom to be imperfect, and also for, by oppressing the Amazons, forcing them to be perfect in order to survive.

Azzarello often questions perfection in his books. It'd also ring true to another theme of his WW book. The duality of things.

Some examples:
Weakness can become strength (said by Diana about the amazons in WW#31), but also the other way around (Strife in WW#34)
The word "bitch" used to describe an unforgiving world that doesn't care about a baby but also a hyena mother who takes that baby into her flock in WW#First born.
Diana's empathy being such a powerful thing but also at times a weakness.
Loosing becoming winning. Something both Ares and Diana have displayed.

And perhaps also about perfection. Being perfect, but at the same time resenting it.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, forgot a bit about the passion bit when I wrote it. But I think Zeus nature of leaving -bastards- probably will play into the birth of Diana in some way. Perhaps they both tried to fight it, his nature of doing so.



Perhaps Zeus figured First born where to learn something about mercy and humility from Wonder Woman, which Sea tells FB in WW#18 about why Zeus didn't kill him in the first place, which also the oracles in WW#First born says Zeus was mind blown about his son's -what I guess was thanks to his- tenacity. Perhaps the foresaw a similar thing happening with FB and Diana.

Since Zeus blood runs so deep in FB that he felt entitled to everything since birth, perhaps Zeus also thought FB also would be able to be impressed. And perhaps -if so- he was somewhat right since FB tried to force her into marrying her.



Azzarello often questions perfection in his books. It'd also ring true to another theme of his WW book. The duality of things.

Some examples:
Weakness can become strength (said by Diana about the amazons in WW#31), but also the other way around (Strife in WW#34)
The word "bitch" used to describe an unforgiving world that doesn't care about a baby but also a hyena mother who takes that baby into her flock in WW#First born.
Diana's empathy being such a powerful thing but also at times a weakness.
Loosing becoming winning. Something both Ares and Diana have displayed.

And perhaps also about perfection. Being perfect, but at the same time resenting it.

I know I keep harping on this but where the Amazons in the past perfect or was it that readers merely perceived them as being perfect. Previous stories dealt with diplomatic tensions, dispute within the monarchy, tribal fights etc. Yes, Themyscira started out as a Utopia but it has been portrayed with enough nuance in the past to not be that way. A better description would be a small isolated community of women who have been victimized and are supporting each other. That's the problem a lot of people have with this run and similar stories, that it's gone too far in the opposite direction. I think there is something to be said about a story that challenges what people view as perfection and how they can make harsh and unfair judgements towards what they see as flawless.

[SofNascimento]

While I am a huge fan of this run, I doubt that it being "better" is why they chose to go with this origin.

Would you say it's because it's simpler? I think there are meritis to this, it's certainly easier to understand a person that was born from a man and a woman than one that was molded out of clay and given life by the gods. But I don't think that's all there is to it. My favorite consequence of Azzarello's change is that Diana is more defined as a character.

Take Soule is SM/WW for example. He messed a lot with what Azzarello did, adding/changing things that went into direct contradiction with his run. One of that is that Amazons age outside the island. But even though we could have said this about Hessia, he couldn't about Diana because she was the daughter of Zeus. It's harder to mess things up.

[Agent Z]

Would you say it's because it's simpler? I think there are meritis to this, it's certainly easier to understand a person that was born from a man and a woman than one that was molded out of clay and given life by the gods. But I don't think that's all there is to it. My favorite consequence of Azzarello's change is that Diana is more defined as a character.

Take Soule is SM/WW for example. He messed a lot with what Azzarello did, adding/changing things that went into direct contradiction with his run. One of that is that Amazons age outside the island. But even though we could have said this about Hessia, he couldn't about Diana because she was the daughter of Zeus. It's harder to mess things up.

Diana can age. She started as an infant and grew into an adult. That is literally the concept of aging. Take a look at the other demigods in the book - do you think they were born in their current physical age? For me, I would say that Diana ages at a slower rate than a normal human. Then again immortality in Azz's run is kind of odd since we've seen that even the gods can die.

[brettc1]

Would you say it's because it's simpler? I think there are meritis to this, it's certainly easier to understand a person that was born from a man and a woman than one that was molded out of clay and given life by the gods. But I don't think that's all there is to it. My favorite consequence of Azzarello's change is that Diana is more defined as a character.

Take Soule is SM/WW for example. He messed a lot with what Azzarello did, adding/changing things that went into direct contradiction with his run. One of that is that Amazons age outside the island. But even though we could have said this about Hessia, he couldn't about Diana because she was the daughter of Zeus. It's harder to mess things up.

Firstly, she has only been off the island half a decade.

Secondly, comic book characters age at a fraction of the rate of ordinary people. Peter Parker was 16 years old in 1963 and over half a century later has yet to reach his 30's. Even characters that don't have super-powers, like Alfred Pennyworth, are largely immune. This is one of those things that people simply turn a blind eye to out of convenience, and is therefor a non-issue.

[Silvanus]

I know I keep harping on this but where the Amazons in the past perfect or was it that readers merely perceived them as being perfect. [

You're right that they've had flaws before; but why is that readers have perceived them as perfect? I think it's because the Amazons have usually been portrayed as mostly exemplary, with flaws that were mostly either marginal, vestigal, easily remedied, results of manipulation or extreme anxiety over loved ones, or aberrations from their historical exemplarity (or several of the above). It seems to me that, for the most part, Diana's upbringing The current run treats their flaws as more endemic to their customs, which, according to Dessa, they adopted in order to survive. And it treats Diana's upbringing as positive but flawed by the stigma and envy to which she was subjected by some of her peers. So, the potential for internal conflict, which is good for stories, may run a little deeper, and there may be more room for Diana to be a hero who leads her society in fundamental reform.

That's the problem a lot of people have with this run and similar stories, that it's gone too far in the opposite direction. I think there is something to be said about a story that challenges what people view as perfection and how they can make harsh and unfair judgements towards what they see as flawless.

But, since issue 30, hasn't this run been moving back in the direction of a more positive portrayal of the Amazons? Under Diana's leadership, Dessa repents and embraces the idea of raising a man on Paradise Island, and Aleka accepts the male Amazons and sacrifices herself.

[borntohula]

Then again immortality in Azz's run is kind of odd since we've seen that even the gods can die.

If I remember correctly, only if killed by someone with olympian blood in them.

I know I keep harping on this but where the Amazons in the past perfect or was it that readers merely perceived them as being perfect. Previous stories dealt with diplomatic tensions, dispute within the monarchy, tribal fights etc. Yes, Themyscira started out as a Utopia but it has been portrayed with enough nuance in the past to not be that way. A better description would be a small isolated community of women who have been victimized and are supporting each other. That's the problem a lot of people have with this run and similar stories, that it's gone too far in the opposite direction. I think there is something to be said about a story that challenges what people view as perfection and how they can make harsh and unfair judgements towards what they see as flawless.

No problem. But let me rephrase that. They're not perfect, but what if if they view themselves like that? Diana being the best kid in the class, more perfect than the other perfect ones. Figures that'd there be some flack.

As I'v said before, the latest issues have been quite filled with feminist stuff (especially if you know what to look after.). And I'm hoping it'll do something with the expectations that are put on women, and I think it'd be a "fun" twist if the expectations from men (that some evidently have on women, especially some WW readers hehe) where turned against them.

But regardless. I have no insider info on where the story will end up. And I don't feel it's questioning the amazons of any of the earlier runs, but trying to put some questions regarding the utopian angle and perfection to the readers. But I understand why some doesn't like what they're reading (and perhaps in many cases, stopped reading.).

But with the book soon coming to an end, I'm hoping everyone get's what they want. Be it a good ending (the current run) or a good start on something new (with Finchs and future writers)!

But, since issue 30, hasn't this run been moving back in the direction of a more positive portrayal of the Amazons? Under Diana's leadership, Dessa repents and embraces the idea of raising a man on Paradise Island, and Aleka accepts the male Amazons and sacrifices herself.

Which is a direction I hope the book will continue taking, especially if issues are shown to take time to be fixed or heal. "Diana the reformer".

[SofNascimento]

Diana can age. She started as an infant and grew into an adult. That is literally the concept of aging. Take a look at the other demigods in the book - do you think they were born in their current physical age? For me, I would say that Diana ages at a slower rate than a normal human. Then again immortality in Azz's run is kind of odd since we've seen that even the gods can die.

But she is immortal, it's being said in Azzarello's run.

[Agent Z]

You're right that they've had flaws before; but why is that readers have perceived them as perfect? I think it's because the Amazons have usually been portrayed as mostly exemplary, with flaws that were mostly either marginal, vestigal, easily remedied, results of manipulation or extreme anxiety over loved ones, or aberrations from their historical exemplarity (or several of the above). It seems to me that, for the most part, Diana's upbringing The current run treats their flaws as more endemic to their customs, which, according to Dessa, they adopted in order to survive. And it treats Diana's upbringing as positive but flawed by the stigma and envy to which she was subjected by some of her peers. So, the potential for internal conflict, which is good for stories, may run a little deeper, and there may be more room for Diana to be a hero who leads her society in fundamental reform.



But, since issue 30, hasn't this run been moving back in the direction of a more positive portrayal of the Amazons? Under Diana's leadership, Dessa repents and embraces the idea of raising a man on Paradise Island, and Aleka accepts the male Amazons and sacrifices herself.

What you say makes sense, I suppose. I do think they had flaws and that those flaws weren't superficial just presented in a more understandable light (which I'll admit Azzarello is doing right now). I mentioned how a writer in Secret Six used a character to critique the Amazons way of life but seemed ignorant of the Amazons' own history of abuse at mens' hands. I admit I could be seeing things that are or are not there, because we've had so many bad stories in which the Amazons are depicted in a thoughtless way (Amazons Attack for example). I think it's that in past runs, particularly the Perez run, the Amazons felt more like characters in WW, whereas here they seem like afterthoughts. Just my humble opinion.

[Blacksun]

Is this even a question?

Most comic readers being male, this can be said to be true of ANY character.

new ms marvel? kate bishop? spider gwen?

[Pinsir]

new ms marvel? kate bishop? spider gwen?

To be fair he said 'most,' even then, is there even prove that these characters have a female majority fanbase?