Roven Confirms Wonder Woman's Demi-god Origin For Batman vs. Superman

[HsssH]

I guess we have to consider the first things more relevant. It's never explained where Drusilla came from, and it's never stated anything else about Diana's origin other than that in the entire series. So it remains true.

I have seen only few episodes here and there of that show but couldn't it be that Drusilla was simply adopted?

[Dr. Poison]

I find it hilarious that people think WW parentage is so important to get upset over. WW having a father does not make her less of a character or less of a hero.

I'm wondering, would you and the others that support the Zeus origin be ok if it was further revealed that the day before Hippolyta slept with Zeus, she had a visit from an alien named Jor-El who also seduced her?

[Silvanus]

Those children are prominent due to the passage of time. They weren't forced into the family, on a whim in 2012, in order to steal Hercules' origin and appease male comic book fans.

My point wasn't so much that they're prominent--that's just a fact, and sure, their prominence came over time--but that they're distinct from each other. There seems to be this notion that if she's a child of Zeus then she's just like all the other children of Zeus, but all the other children of Zeus aren't even like each other.

Her origin is pretty distinct from Hercules.' They have the same father, but he wasn't the child of the queen of the Amazons, conceived in a moment of "absolute control--given up" between this queen and the King; wasn't raised on Paradise Island under the cover of being sculpted from clay as the ultimate Amazon; and so on. We'll know more about her origin next week, of course.

I'm wondering, would you and the others that support the Zeus origin be ok if it was further revealed that the day before Hippolyta slept with Zeus, she had a visit from an alien named Jor-El who also seduced her?

Probably not, and there are a few big differences:
1. Zeus' paternity fits in with her historical connections to Greek mythology.
2. Zeus' paternity doesn't make her dependent on Superman's mythos.
3. Zeus' paternity doesn't make her relationship with Superman incestuous.
4. Two affairs in two days makes Hippolyta look worse than one affair in thousands of years.

I do get the intent of your question, I think; while I agree with Char that "WW having a father does not make her less of a character or less of a hero," I also agree with you that it is possible to imagine a father who wouldn't fit with her general mythos or would be bad choices for some other reason. Besides Jor-El, other bad choices as Wonder Woman's father might include Ambush Bug, G'nort, Dan DiDio, and PeeWee Herman. But I don't think Zeus is one of them.

[Dr. Poison]

My point wasn't so much that they're prominent--that's just a fact, and sure, their prominence came over time--but that they're distinct from each other. There seems to be this notion that if she's a child of Zeus then she's just like all the other children of Zeus, but all the other children of Zeus aren't even like each other.

Her origin is pretty distinct from Hercules.' They have the same father, but he wasn't the child of the queen of the Amazons, conceived in a moment of "absolute control--given up" between this queen and the King; wasn't raised on Paradise Island under the cover of being sculpted from clay as the ultimate Amazon; and so on. We'll know more about her origin next week, of course.



Probably not, and there are a few big differences:
1. Zeus' paternity fits in with her historical connections to Greek mythology.
2. Zeus' paternity doesn't make her dependent on Superman's mythos.
3. Zeus' paternity doesn't make her relationship with Superman incestuous.
4. Two affairs in two days makes Hippolyta look worse than one affair in thousands of years.

I do get the intent of your question, I think; while I agree with Char that "WW having a father does not make her less of a character or less of a hero," I also agree with you that it is possible to imagine a father who wouldn't fit with her general mythos or would be bad choices for some other reason. Besides Jor-El, other bad choices as Wonder Woman's father might include Ambush Bug, G'nort, Dan DiDio, and PeeWee Herman. But I don't think Zeus is one of them.

My point is that rather than respecting Marston's idea of a creation of life without a male involved, we currently have Hippolyta sullying herself with someone from public domain to create Diana. I get that you think it's ok because Diana has roots in Greek mythology. I'm wondering then, since Wonder Woman was also heavily connected to the United States government in her early years, would you be ok if Diana's father was Abraham Lincoln or George Washington?

[Silvanus]

My point is that rather than respecting Marston's idea of a creation of life without a male involved, we currently have Hippolyta sullying herself with someone from public domain to create Diana. I get that you think it's ok because Diana has roots in Greek mythology. I'm wondering then, since Wonder Woman was also heavily connected to the United States government in her early years, would you be ok if Diana's father was Abraham Lincoln or George Washington?

Yeah, that would be awesome. Or maybe Daniel Boone, and she could have one of those coonskin caps instead of a tiara. Or Uncle Sam, and he gives her the hat. Of course, she'd look great in Lincoln's stovepipe hat or Wasington's powdered wig, too.

Joking aside (yet without, I hope, taking this funny question too seriously), the difference is that Diana, stronger than Hercules and faster than Hermes, came from the world of Greek mythology as an emissary to America. Making her a child of America would screw that up. To me, it's just kind of absurd to imagine Hippolyta with Abe Lincoln, and not so much to imagine Zeus with Hippolyta; come to think of it, I'm almost surprised there wasn't a myth romantically linking Zeus to Hippolyta. (It might have been incestuous, but that didn't usually get in the way of a good myth.)

Marston's "idea of creation of life without a male involved" doesn't seem to have been a very central part of his vision, but more of a quick explanation of how the Amazons made a baby without men around. As far as I know, it's mentioned in about two or three panels of his run, all in the origin. It's also mentioned in the comic strip, but as far as the comic goes, it's ignored (again, as far as I've been able to find out) after All Star 8 and the first issue of Wonder Woman. Even if it was more important to his vision than I think, it probably couldn't have been very important tot eh appeal of Wonder Woman to a lot of its early fans; many of them probably picked up the comic on the news stand sometime after its first issue and might never have learned how Wonder Woman was "born."

I'm sure Marston wouldn't/couldn't have written an origin involving adultery given his younger audience and the public mores of the times, but if he were writing today, for an older and (we hope) more mature audience, who knows? Before writing Wonder Woman, he had written (in 1938) Venus With Us, A Tale of the Caesar, which has been described as a "classic BDSM novel." (I haven't read it--just going by the little I see about it on the web.) So it doesn't seem like he minded writing about unconventional or possibly (in the eyes of some "immoral") sexual choices when he was writing for adults.

I admit I'm not sure how I think they should handle the adultery aspect in the movie, which, I would expect, will get a little more attention from kids than the comic book does (though it's not going to be a Disney cartoon). Maybe say that Zeus had divorced Hera? Hera could still be jealous even after a divorce, so it wouldn't ruin the "vengeful goddess" aspect, if that matters. Or maybe if the Man of Steel Universe audience can handle Superman killing Zod, we can handle Hippolyta having a moment of indiscretion with Zeus?

Note also that when Hippolyta "sullies herself," Azz describes that moment as "absolute control--given up"--an allusion to some very Marstonian ideas.

[Gaelforce]

Oooookay boys and girls, listen up.

I have just deleted, edited and banned, all before I've finished my morning tea.

1. Take it down a notch, please, and back off the personal commentary.
2. Stop repeating the same complaints.
3. Once a reference has been provided, stop asking for specifics. Feel free to go check it out yourself if you want to see/read about it.

Gaelforce

[Dr. Poison]

Yeah, that would be awesome. Or maybe Daniel Boone, and she could have one of those coonskin caps instead of a tiara. Or Uncle Sam, and he gives her the hat. Of course, she'd look great in Lincoln's stovepipe hat or Wasington's powdered wig, too.

Joking aside (yet without, I hope, taking this funny question too seriously), the difference is that Diana, stronger than Hercules and faster than Hermes, came from the world of Greek mythology as an emissary to America. Making her a child of America would screw that up.

Marston's "idea of creation of life without a male involved" doesn't seem to have been a very central part of his vision, but more of a quick explanation of how the Amazons made a baby without men around. As far as I know, it's mentioned in about two or three panels of his run, all in the origin. It's also mentioned in the comic strip, but as far as the comic goes, it's ignored (again, as far as I've been able to find out) after All Star 8 and the first issue of Wonder Woman.

I'm sure Marston wouldn't/couldn't have written an origin involving adultery given his younger audience and the public mores of the times, but if he were writing today, for an older and (we hope) more mature audience, who knows? Before writing Wonder Woman, he had written (in 1938) Venus With Us, A Tale of the Caesar, which has been described as a "classic BDSM novel." (I haven't read it--just going by the little I see about it on the web.) So it doesn't seem like he minded writing about unconventional or possibly "immoral" sexual choices when he was writing for adults.

I admit I'm not sure how I think they should handle the adultery aspect in the movie, which, I would expect, will get a little more attention from kids than the comic book does (though it's not going to be a Disney cartoon). Maybe say that Zeus had divorced Hera? Hera could still be jealous even after a divorce, so it wouldn't ruin the "vengeful goddess" aspect, if that matters. Or maybe if the Man of Steel Universe audience can handle Superman killing Zod, we can handle Hippolyta having a moment of indiscretion with Zeus?

Note also that when Hippolyta "sullies herself," Azz describes that moment as "absolute control--given up"--an allusion to some very Marstonian ideas.

I do think that creating life without a male involved was very important to Marston as he seemed very intent on showcasing what women could do. Look at all of the technology that his Amazons had. Look at how physically and mentally competent they were. Look at the society they lived in on Paradise Island - no men there. If Marston didn't mind a man involved in Diana's creation, he could have went the route Azzarello went, he could have had Hippolyta journey to Man's World and get pregnant there, or he could have had another man wash up on Paradise Island and get Hippy pregnant.

[Mel Dyer]

What ruined Wonder Woman's origin for the masses - what made it convoluted - is the retro-loading of all that junk about Diana being a reincarnation of the unborn daughter of the first woman, murdered by a man. It was a lovely little fairytale about the princess of a magical kingdom, before all of that was stitched on. This is the development that makes her an feminist messiah, ..and the whimsical simplicity of the story was truly ruined by it.

"Wonder Woman's story begins, when the Queen of the Amazons shaped a little girl from enchanted clay that was magically brought to life by the Greek gods, who also gave her magnificent powers!" Pretty simple, if you leave it that way. It actually has a Greek myth ambiance that fits the character.

A shame.

[Blacksun]

I'm wondering, would you and the others that support the Zeus origin be ok if it was further revealed that the day before Hippolyta slept with Zeus, she had a visit from an alien named Jor-El who also seduced her?

jor-el is a scientist not a professional ladies man like zeus... anyway it wouldn't make any sense

What ruined Wonder Woman's origin for the masses - what made it convoluted - is the retro-loading of all that junk about Diana being a reincarnation of the unborn daughter of the first woman, murdered by a man. It was a lovely little fairytale about the princess of a magical kingdom, before all of that was stitched on. This is the development that makes her an feminist messiah, ..and the whimsical simplicity of the story was truly ruined by it.

"Wonder Woman's story begins, when the Queen of the Amazons shaped a little girl from enchanted clay that was magically brought to life by the Greek gods, who also gave her magnificent powers!" Pretty simple, if you leave it that way. It actually has a Greek myth ambiance that fits the character.

A shame.

the key is simplify

[Silvanus]

I do think that creating life without a male involved was very important to Marston as he seemed very intent on showcasing what women could do. Look at all of the technology that his Amazons had. Look at how physically and mentally competent they were. Look at the society they lived in on Paradise Island - no men there.

He was most certainly interested in showcasing what women can do, and you mention some of the very prominent ways in which he did so. Each of those wonderful ways--physical and mental abilities, advanced technology, and independent female society--is featured in many issues. The clay birth, on the other hand, seems to be completely unmentioned in Marston's comic book run after a few panels in the wo origin issues. So I infer that this particular way of showcasing what women could do was not the most important element of the story to Marston and certainly not the best known element to his readers.

If Marston didn't mind a man involved in Diana's creation, he could have went the route Azzarello went, he could have had Hippolyta journey to Man's World and get pregnant there, or he could have had another man wash up on Paradise Island and get Hippy pregnant.

I'm not saying he didn't have other choices; obviously he liked the clay birth story well enough that he chose to use it. I like it too. Liking and thinking that it's an essential and immutable part of the background for all Wonder Woman stories ever are two different things.

[wagthedog]

the key is simplify

Let's see if we can simplify her origin.

1) She was created from clay and given powers from the Greek Gods

2) She is the bastard offspring of Zeus and Hippolyta

I am not sure why people are saying the 1st is overcomplicated.

[Silvanus]

Let's see if we can simplify her origin.

1) She was created from clay and given powers from the Greed Gods

2) She is the bastard offspring of Zeus and Hippolyta

I am not sure why people are saying the 1st is overcomplicated.

Are the Greed Gods related to the Seven Deadly Sins? (Sorry--I owed you some typo mockery from yesterday. )

I don't think it's overcomplicated. What some people think is overcomplicated is the Volume 2 version, layering in reincarnation of an unborn child of an abused cavewoman. Even that didn't particularly bother me. I just think this new origin makes for some fresh story possibilities.

[AmiMizuno]

Are the Greed Gods related to the Seven Deadly Sins? (Sorry--I owed you some typo mockery from yesterday. )

I don't think it's overcomplicated. What some people think is overcomplicated is the Volume 2 version, layering in reincarnation of an unborn child of an abused cavewoman. Even that didn't particularly bother me. I just think this new origin makes for some fresh story possibilities.

But it also been to over used with the Zeus origin. Also it takes on the fact that Zeus himself was the reason whys he got her powers not training. It would be a nice change that her powers comes more from training.

[wagthedog]

Are the Greed Gods related to the Seven Deadly Sins? (Sorry--I owed you some typo mockery from yesterday. )

I don't think it's overcomplicated. What some people think is overcomplicated is the Volume 2 version, layering in reincarnation of an unborn child of an abused cavewoman. Even that didn't particularly bother me. I just think this new origin makes for some fresh story possibilities.

Yeah, I just caught the typo before reading your reply. But you committed sacrilege by misspelling Lynda

[TrekkieGal]

And thus the cycle is complete. I was hoping there wouldn't be a Wonder Woman movie and my horror is realized, after all there has to be a MAN involve in EVERY FRIGGIN THING!