Loki: Agent of Asgard #7 *spoilers* - The Ice Cream Parlor of Doctor Doom.

[Rosebunse]

OMG, we had ONE issue where Loki wasn't the driving force, ONE. It happens in MANY books (every issue doesn't need to focus on title character), and this is Doom. 1. He's acknowledged to be one of the biggest badasses in the MU, 2. He knows Loki VERY well, and 3. this isn't the same Loki, this Loki is younger, more fallable, and can make mistakes. Plus Doom was prepared, it's not that hard to buy, AT ALL!

I don't see what everyone is freaking out about. To be honest, I HATE books that are all about the main character. You need a strong supporting cast, and Ewing is building Loki's. Verity really shined in this issue, Val was cute and not a total Mary Sue, and Ewing managed to give us a Doom that was proud, strong, noble, crazy, and freaking Dr.Doom.

Also, does anyone else think part of Loki's inversion will involve kidLoki?

[Post Monster]

I think it's because Doom has such a long, rich history (well, some good, some bad) that writers just have a lot more to work with. Loki's ascendance to where he even has a fandom is a recent development. Were you angry about how Pym pwned Loki in Mighty Avengers? I wonder if any of his new fans even know about that one. Doom was gentle by comparison as I recall.
There are really very few times when I was really ticked off enough about a comic book situation. Most of us get a bit theatric in our rants but we are not seriously angry.

I really don't mind a little give and take between Loki and Doom. I thought it was pretty funny when they had the deal that Loki was going to teleport Doom out of his Destroyer armor if it looked like he was losing against Thor. When Doom complained that Loki left him hanging for a while when Thor got the upper hand, Loki just told him thought part of Doom's strategy was to let Thor clobber him for a while.

It doesn't really bother me that much, because what's happened is Doom has an agenda that Loki knows nothing about. Loki's not really invested at this point, but he is curious, so nothing will happen until he decides he really cares about the situation. And he probably expects King Loki is behind this somehow.

We basically have to introduce the crew, so Doom got a lot of focus as did the current state of Loki-goodness and his nature.

[BradleyFan]

tumblr_ndgxpcq6u61r7swwdo3_1280.jpg

https://33.media.tumblr.com/123411f7...wwdo3_1280.jpg

Can we talk about this part for a second? I find it disturbing that Frigga (while she does seem more regretful of what she's doing) just assumes that Loki will "come to his senses" with time. I mean, it's one thing to try and force him down a path he's trying not to go down, but she's trying to make it seem like she's doing this for his own good.

And going back to Old Loki in issue 6, could it be possible that he wanted Doom to attack present Loki? I mean, from their interaction in issue 6, Old Loki seemed pretty calm about finding Doom at the end of the world, and even still, he riled Doom up to the point where Doom went to "deal" with present day Loki. Was this some kind of evil!Loki plan from the get-go? And if so, to what end?

Regardless of Loki's lack of agency in these past two issues, there have been some HUGE changes in his attitude. If he were old Loki, he would have just sat and watched Latveria burn, in fact, he probably would have found ways to make the situation worse. He willingly used his truth sword, even though he knew the effect it would have on him (mad respect right there), and he's doing everything he can to not fall back into old habits.

Up thread, someone mentioned Loki not using his magic as much. And I agree with that, but wasn't it explained in the first issue? Something about using his magic too much would mean he'd go back to "burning?" (I can't find the page online at the moment)

Frankly, I love Verity because she's the only person who actually believes Loki can change, and that's something he needs right now. I mean, it's like Loki's a recovering alcoholic and EVERYONE around him (even Thor to some extent) is trying to forcibly shove alcohol down his throat.

"No...you're evil because that's who you are. It's easier for us if you're evil so stay that way."

It really reminds me of the stop motion comic "Thor and Loki: Blood Brothers"

One final note: Ego Death (which was back in issue 6).
When Doom found old Loki in the future with Skully, he said "That which is called Ego Death is coming to you. Be not weak"

Well, at first read I though "Ego Death" was some Marvel tie-in, but it means the death of the active Ego (or identity). The way a person sees themselves shifts and they are able to become a different person (at least that's what it sounds like from the very miniscule research I did). What if Skully was talking to/about Loki?

Sorry, I hope this post wasn't too long winded. I just think it's interesting the way metafiction works within this book, it's actually one of my favorites at the moment.

[cosmicjoke21]

tumblr_ndgxpcq6u61r7swwdo3_1280.jpg

https://33.media.tumblr.com/123411f7...wwdo3_1280.jpg

Can we talk about this part for a second? I find it disturbing that Frigga (while she does seem more regretful of what she's doing) just assumes that Loki will "come to his senses" with time. I mean, it's one thing to try and force him down a path he's trying not to go down, but she's trying to make it seem like she's doing this for his own good.

And going back to Old Loki in issue 6, could it be possible that he wanted Doom to attack present Loki? I mean, from their interaction in issue 6, Old Loki seemed pretty calm about finding Doom at the end of the world, and even still, he riled Doom up to the point where Doom went to "deal" with present day Loki. Was this some kind of evil!Loki plan from the get-go? And if so, to what end?

Regardless of Loki's lack of agency in these past two issues, there have been some HUGE changes in his attitude. If he were old Loki, he would have just sat and watched Latveria burn, in fact, he probably would have found ways to make the situation worse. He willingly used his truth sword, even though he knew the effect it would have on him (mad respect right there), and he's doing everything he can to not fall back into old habits.

Up thread, someone mentioned Loki not using his magic as much. And I agree with that, but wasn't it explained in the first issue? Something about using his magic too much would mean he'd go back to "burning?" (I can't find the page online at the moment)

Frankly, I love Verity because she's the only person who actually believes Loki can change, and that's something he needs right now. I mean, it's like Loki's a recovering alcoholic and EVERYONE around him (even Thor to some extent) is trying to forcibly shove alcohol down his throat.

"No...you're evil because that's who you are. It's easier for us if you're evil so stay that way."

It really reminds me of the stop motion comic "Thor and Loki: Blood Brothers"

One final note: Ego Death (which was back in issue 6).
When Doom found old Loki in the future with Skully, he said "That which is called Ego Death is coming to you. Be not weak"

Well, at first read I though "Ego Death" was some Marvel tie-in, but it means the death of the active Ego (or identity). The way a person sees themselves shifts and they are able to become a different person (at least that's what it sounds like from the very miniscule research I did). What if Skully was talking to/about Loki?

Sorry, I hope this post wasn't too long winded. I just think it's interesting the way metafiction works within this book, it's actually one of my favorites at the moment.

Those are all really good points, and I totally agree. I even mentioned the significance of that moment when Loki uses Gram to unleash the wave of truth, despite the harmful affects it would have on him, and that's the action of a true hero. Loki's basically defied and proven wrong everyone who said he couldn't and/or shouldn't change, and that's a huge, huge deal.

And that's really fascinating, what you pointed out about Skully and what he says about "Ego Death". It sounds more like it would apply to Loki than to Doom for sure, and certainly also, Old-Loki didn't seem at all alarmed by Doom's presence at the end of the world, but more like he was even expecting him, and most certainly, purposfully goaded him into the actions he took afterwards, so whatever's going on there, there's obviously more than meets the eye.

[Kieran_Frost]

OMG, we had ONE issue where Loki wasn't the driving force, ONE. It happens in MANY books (every issue doesn't need to focus on title character), and this is Doom. 1. He's acknowledged to be one of the biggest badasses in the MU, 2. He knows Loki VERY well, and 3. this isn't the same Loki, this Loki is younger, more fallable, and can make mistakes. Plus Doom was prepared, it's not that hard to buy, AT ALL!

a) it's been two issues, not one
b) this is following on from 5 issues of Loki sharing the spotlight with Thor. So that's 7 issues in a row where the solo star... isn't solo, nor a star :P

Frankly, I love Verity because she's the only person who actually believes Loki can change, and that's something he needs right now. I mean, it's like Loki's a recovering alcoholic and EVERYONE around him (even Thor to some extent) is trying to forcibly shove alcohol down his throat.

"No...you're evil because that's who you are. It's easier for us if you're evil so stay that way."

This is a great (and tragic) analogy. Kudos!

And going back to Old Loki in issue 6, could it be possible that he wanted Doom to attack present Loki? I mean, from their interaction in issue 6, Old Loki seemed pretty calm about finding Doom at the end of the world, and even still, he riled Doom up to the point where Doom went to "deal" with present day Loki. Was this some kind of evil!Loki plan from the get-go? And if so, to what end?

Ohhhhh, I didn't think of that. Oh evil Loki, how evil you are indeed!

Regardless of Loki's lack of agency in these past two issues, there have been some HUGE changes in his attitude. If he were old Loki, he would have just sat and watched Latveria burn, in fact, he probably would have found ways to make the situation worse. He willingly used his truth sword, even though he knew the effect it would have on him (mad respect right there), and he's doing everything he can to not fall back into old habits.

Thank god Verity was there to explain to him how his own sword worked

One final note: Ego Death (which was back in issue 6).
When Doom found old Loki in the future with Skully, he said "That which is called Ego Death is coming to you. Be not weak"

Well, at first read I though "Ego Death" was some Marvel tie-in, but it means the death of the active Ego (or identity). The way a person sees themselves shifts and they are able to become a different person (at least that's what it sounds like from the very miniscule research I did). What if Skully was talking to/about Loki?

Sorry, I hope this post wasn't too long winded. I just think it's interesting the way metafiction works within this book, it's actually one of my favorites at the moment.

I assumed Ego Death was more about Loki than a Doom spoiler.

[Raye]

tumblr_ndgxpcq6u61r7swwdo3_1280.jpg

https://33.media.tumblr.com/123411f7...wwdo3_1280.jpg

Can we talk about this part for a second? I find it disturbing that Frigga (while she does seem more regretful of what she's doing) just assumes that Loki will "come to his senses" with time. I mean, it's one thing to try and force him down a path he's trying not to go down, but she's trying to make it seem like she's doing this for his own good.

i think it's clear Odin knows Loki better than Freyja does, but it is a little sad he's just kind of walking away from the situation.

And going back to Old Loki in issue 6, could it be possible that he wanted Doom to attack present Loki? I mean, from their interaction in issue 6, Old Loki seemed pretty calm about finding Doom at the end of the world, and even still, he riled Doom up to the point where Doom went to "deal" with present day Loki. Was this some kind of evil!Loki plan from the get-go? And if so, to what end?

I think it was plainly obvious that King Loki wanted Doom to go after his younger self, probably because of AXIS. the sheer coincidence of him even being at the same time and place as Doom kind of indicates the meeting was planned on Loki's part. I mean... Magneto was recruiting Doom, Loki is just along for the ride because he happened to be at the castle right then, because Doom captured him. It's possible that in King Loki's time, AXIS went differently because Loki did not participate in the battle for Genosha, and on a more personal level, did not get inverted.

Regardless of Loki's lack of agency in these past two issues, there have been some HUGE changes in his attitude. If he were old Loki, he would have just sat and watched Latveria burn, in fact, he probably would have found ways to make the situation worse. He willingly used his truth sword, even though he knew the effect it would have on him (mad respect right there), and he's doing everything he can to not fall back into old habits.

Well, not TOO huge, he was quite prepared to walk away from the situation, (not out of any desire to 'watch it burn' exactly just... wasn't his fight, he's still out for himself first and foremost) and would have if not for Verity. And actually... looking above at what I said about Odin, that may be some intentional paralleling going on there. Odin is... not exactly consistently written over the years. but recently, he's definitely been heavy on the 'Asgard/me first' side of things. Like, in Thor #1 just recently, he was prepared to retreat back to Asgardia to let Midgard deal with the frost giants themselves because I guess he apparently didn't see it as Asgard's fight since they were not attacking Asgard directly, and now this, but here it's less Asgard and more 'enh, Loki's problem, not mine' Loki apparently takes after Odin more than he probably wants or realizes.

One final note: Ego Death (which was back in issue 6).
When Doom found old Loki in the future with Skully, he said "That which is called Ego Death is coming to you. Be not weak"

Well, at first read I though "Ego Death" was some Marvel tie-in, but it means the death of the active Ego (or identity). The way a person sees themselves shifts and they are able to become a different person (at least that's what it sounds like from the very miniscule research I did). What if Skully was talking to/about Loki?

Sorry, I hope this post wasn't too long winded. I just think it's interesting the way metafiction works within this book, it's actually one of my favorites at the moment.

I think this is another hint about AXIS. 'Ego' can mean a couple different things in this context, especially when referring to Doom. So it is a little hard to say exactly what was meant... but the message took the form of a skull (Red Skull) and 'ego death' could relate to the upcoming inversion, which presumably will affect Doom pretty strongly. One of Doom's most defining traits is his overwhelming ego, so if that trait gets flipped in the inversion so he is humble, then 'ego death' kinda has a double meaning, the more psychological meaning of the death of his identity, and the more common meaning of just stopping being such an egomaniac. And I mean, it could only have been a warning to Doom, Loki was controlling the illusion, it was just a magical puppet, and Doom was the only other person there...

[klinton]

THIS! Loki didn't do a single clever thing this issue; while everyone else got to shine. This was probably my least favourite issue of the series so far (which hasn't been squeal enduring fun since issue #5; meaning nearly half the run is now merely "good"). Ewing is dropping the ball

There's just no way we're reading the same book. It's impossible.

Did you check your copies for missing pages? Mistake 'Loki' for something else you've read?

While I don't squeal with glee, ever, I've been loving the title. This latest issue was fantastic! Which is saying something, because I ordinarilly find Val insufferable.

And your count is missing a few issues. 'The Tenth Realm' was most certainly part of this run.

[Kieran_Frost]

There's just no way we're reading the same book. It's impossible.
Did you check your copies for missing pages? Mistake 'Loki' for something else you've read?
While I don't squeal with glee, ever, I've been loving the title. This latest issue was fantastic! Which is saying something, because I ordinarilly find Val insufferable.

HAHA! Different strokes, dear klinton. Previously I've adored Verity, and found her a little annoying this issue. See what opposite ends of the spectrum we sit on (you like UA... I have taste, we're just so different ). Oh well... fingers crossed Al Ewing changes course next issue and has Loki being the wonderful, manipulative game changer he's meant to be.

And your count is missing a few issues. 'The Tenth Realm' was most certainly part of this run.

I was counting the 10th Realm (i.e. five issues 10th realm + 2 Doom: Agent of Latvia) = good. #1-5 Loki: Agent of Asgard = bloody flawless! So I was wrong, it's not "nearly half"... it's over half is now just "good" not "Frigga epic!"

[Rosebunse]

I think this issue gives us some good insight into the new Thor story. Odin knows that Freya is playing with fire by trusting Old Loki, and I believe he also believes one of two things will happen; either Loki will fail and he will be a villain again, or he won't and he won't be a threat to Asgardia. In option one, things will stay the way they are, and in another, Odin doesn't have to deal with Loki as a threat. Neither would be really bad from Odin's point of view. Of course, Freya is right here too. Odin has brought Cul back, so it all evens out.

Now, if Old Loki did need to manipulate events so that Loki would be with Doom when Magneto came to ask for help, the question is why would he want Loki to be there when the inversion happens? Since we know Loki will be a "good guy" because of it, why would that need to happen at all? Something very, very traumatic is going to come of this, but why would it need to happen if it didn't happen the last time and Old Loki still turned out to be the bad guy? I really think this is enforcing the idea that Old Loki may not be a complete agent of evil after all, but then again...

[Raye]

Because King Loki is merely playing the part of bad guy. Well, sort of. He may actually believe the things he says and i have no doubt that King Loki is evil to the core, and is in fact trying to bring about the apocalypse in his own mind, such as it is. But i don't think his 'mind' is fully his, and his actions will have unintended consequences by design. If my theory about him being a character inserted into young Loki's story by the REAL Future Loki, (with the shadow of Gram, most likely) like what Kid Loki did with Leah in Cul's story, is true, (and as time goes on more and more supports this) then Future Loki has merely created King Loki to motivate young Loki to PREVENT the horrible future shown in God of Thunder and earlier here with Doom. Maybe Future Loki thinks Young Loki needs a dose of inversion to kickstart him on the right path.

so for reference:

Future Loki - still in the future, but re-writing the past with the shadow of Gram. Likely a good guy, or at worst neutral.
King Loki - character that he is inserting into the story. Cartoonishly evil.
Young Loki - the current Loki, chaotic neutral at present, may need to learn to become a bit less self centered. King Loki is the means to learning that lesson.

[Post Monster]

Up thread, someone mentioned Loki not using his magic as much. And I agree with that, but wasn't it explained in the first issue? Something about using his magic too much would mean he'd go back to "burning?" (I can't find the page online at the moment)

It's a power thing. Loki is a magical powerhouse, and if he goes after power before he's set in his new "good" ways, he'll backslide into being evil again. So basically evil Loki had good intentions and too much power, which corrupted him.

[dom]

OMG, we had ONE issue where Loki wasn't the driving force, ONE. It happens in MANY books (every issue doesn't need to focus on title character), and this is Doom. 1. He's acknowledged to be one of the biggest badasses in the MU, 2. He knows Loki VERY well, and 3. this isn't the same Loki, this Loki is younger, more fallable, and can make mistakes. Plus Doom was prepared, it's not that hard to buy, AT ALL!

Well, unless I missed something, then no, the current Loki is supposed to be the same old Loki, just in a younger body and with major guilt issues. He killed off the younger and more fallable Loki at the end of JiM. But if you take into consideration what the actual young, powerless and innocent Loki was doing in JiM, the current one doesn't even compare. Kid Loki made sure the Serpent would die, manipulated Hela and Mephisto to do what he wanted them to do, defeated Nightmare by manipulating all the fear lords at the same time, tricked Bor, Odin's father and in the end was the one who defeated Surtur. All of this he did just with his smarts. The current Loki thought, who is supposed to be better than Kid Loki in everything, is apparently not smarter than Verity because when she came up with her plan to save the day, she even had to explain to Loki why her plan would work. That's just doesn't seem right. And being handled by Doom like that also does not feel right considering who innocent and inexperienced kid Loki was handling in JiM.

[Post Monster]

I think this issue gives us some good insight into the new Thor story. Odin knows that Freya is playing with fire by trusting Old Loki, and I believe he also believes one of two things will happen; either Loki will fail and he will be a villain again, or he won't and he won't be a threat to Asgardia. In option one, things will stay the way they are, and in another, Odin doesn't have to deal with Loki as a threat. Neither would be really bad from Odin's point of view. Of course, Freya is right here too. Odin has brought Cul back, so it all evens out.

I've suspected for awhile that Evil Loki is actually a placeholder role for Cul, who is supposed to be the evil trouble-making god. Loki has been brought in and used to take Cul's role to an extent (not the fear part but the troublemaker part). Odin, I think, had to use him to replace Cul with a less dangerous threat.

[BradleyFan]

Well, unless I missed something, then no, the current Loki is supposed to be the same old Loki, just in a younger body and with major guilt issues. He killed off the younger and more fallable Loki at the end of JiM. But if you take into consideration what the actual young, powerless and innocent Loki was doing in JiM, the current one doesn't even compare. Kid Loki made sure the Serpent would die, manipulated Hela and Mephisto to do what he wanted them to do, defeated Nightmare by manipulating all the fear lords at the same time, tricked Bor, Odin's father and in the end was the one who defeated Surtur. All of this he did just with his smarts. The current Loki thought, who is supposed to be better than Kid Loki in everything, is apparently not smarter than Verity because when she came up with her plan to save the day, she even had to explain to Loki why her plan would work. That's just doesn't seem right. And being handled by Doom like that also does not feel right considering who innocent and inexperienced kid Loki was handling in JiM.

Well, in Young Avengers volume 2, Loki (current Loki) stated that he's not the "same old Loki", he's a copy. He's the "murder weapon" Loki, not the "murderer" Loki, (I think this has been discussed in Agent of Asgard #5 discussion thread) And every time he refers to the Old Loki, he speaks about him in the third person. "The Loki who burned" rather than "Hey, that's old me."

See, when copy Loki stepped into Kid Loki's story, that story also stepped into Copy Loki, and created something new (a new "story" and a new "hero" for that story.) This was also explained in Young Avengers volume 2.

I like to think of it as a different actor playing the same character. When an actor plays someone they bring out different aspects of that character's personality.
Old Loki=Evil/cruel/calculating
Kid Loki=Innocent/sweet/ready for change
AoA Loki=Crafty, repentant, swashbuckling.

And it makes sense for Verity to know more about the weapon. Think about it, Gram is "truth" and Verity has lived with the truth her whole life, so naturally she would be the most knowledgeable about all forms of truth. Loki is still getting used to using the truth as a weapon (and through most of the run, he barely uses it at all). He even said so in the first issue, "Truth is not a weapon in my arsenal")

[Rosebunse]

Well, unless I missed something, then no, the current Loki is supposed to be the same old Loki, just in a younger body and with major guilt issues. He killed off the younger and more fallable Loki at the end of JiM. But if you take into consideration what the actual young, powerless and innocent Loki was doing in JiM, the current one doesn't even compare. Kid Loki made sure the Serpent would die, manipulated Hela and Mephisto to do what he wanted them to do, defeated Nightmare by manipulating all the fear lords at the same time, tricked Bor, Odin's father and in the end was the one who defeated Surtur. All of this he did just with his smarts. The current Loki thought, who is supposed to be better than Kid Loki in everything, is apparently not smarter than Verity because when she came up with her plan to save the day, she even had to explain to Loki why her plan would work. That's just doesn't seem right. And being handled by Doom like that also does not feel right considering who innocent and inexperienced kid Loki was handling in JiM.

I don't really get why THIS Loki can't fail when old Loki used to fail literally all the damn time.

Also, I would argue that the thing about him being "new" at this is still in play. He's not used to being the hero. He's not used to people liking him and he's not used to having to put their needs above their own. He got very lucky with Verity being there or else no one would have come to save him, save for maybe if Doom had let him out to fight the Red Skull.

This Loki is new to being a good, decent person, and you can see that he's admitted that he's having trouble with it. In the fight with Dr.Doom, he made heroic mistakes, he played the role of the archetypal hero, and he afterwards he helped save thousands of people even though he it caused him pain and suffering. He's new, he's the hero, and he's doing the best to fit into that role.

Now, another problem with this all is Future King Thor telling current Thor that he should have killed Loki. This makes me think that Loki did do something really, really bad that caused the end of the world, and that the real Future Loki must be trying to stop that.