Can The JSA exist in Earth 0 without negating Superman as the first public hero?

[MajorHoy]

What did Tom Taylor screw up?

All death and destruction, all the time. (Among other things.)

[Sirzechs]

All death and destruction, all the time. (Among other things.)

Are you referring to Evil Superman and the War that Robinson introduced and started in the last panel when he left the book? " Basically saying F U DC now clean that up"

[Güicho]

The mistake is attaching them to a specific real time dates and events.

You can reference a past war with a fantastic dieselpunk/deco aesthetic but never date it.
That era had a look for sci-fi and fantasy, that should be the only reference to "old", a visual cue. Not an actual date.
Reference all the Nazi and Axis aesthetic and do caricature pastiches of real players.
I mean it's what comics do anyway, the genre not just allows it, it encourages it.

Kids read it as an old war, which is all that matters, and adults would recognize the exact references.
Batman the Animated series captured a pulpy/deco time, but could also read as modern looking.
It never dated itself, and read as timeless, You saw what you want.

you can use an older generation of heroes, just don't give a date. Old is purely an aesthetic cue.
As to why how they can predate Superman, as has been pointed out, make them Mystery men who worked completely undercover.

And if you must reference Superman as the first public hero and inspiration for all, do a reverse Legion, and either have him visit the past. or better have someone peek into the "future" and be inspired by him.



.

[Jim Purcell]

All this creates are a bunch of convoluted excuses for characters that would pretend to be the Golden Age heroes but in reality are just the names of those characters and very little else.

What DC should do (should have done) is just let the members of the JSA from the 1940s have their own separate Earth with a minimal interference in their backstories. Otherwise, don't pretend that these sort-of characters are the "New 52-and-improved!" JSA that many of us use to enjoy when we were younger.

(Oh, and by the way, while I was not happy with DC's New 52 Earth 2 as I first learned about it, James Robinson did win me over as long as I accepted they weren't the JSA I use to know and were instead new characters. Then Tom Taylor screwed all that up!)

Your idea for an independent Earth for the JSA is STILL a new variation, and would never be the 'original' (whatever that means, since there are at least 3, 4 if you count New 52 Earth 2, 'cannon' variants of the JSA). It's fine if you don't care for the current version of Earth 2 and its heroes. But pretending there is only one proper way to do a JSA comic is just hair splitting nonsense.

[Dataweaver]

All this creates are a bunch of convoluted excuses for characters that would pretend to be the Golden Age heroes but in reality are just the names of those characters and very little else.

Who said anything about pretending to be the Golden Age heroes? Is the New 52 Superman pretending to be the Golden Age Superman (or the Silver Age Superman, or any of the pre-New52 versions of Superman)? Is Shazam pretending to be the original Captain Marvel? Is Red Robin pretending to be his pre-Flashpoint counterpart? No. The New 52’s Earth-0 is populated by heroes whose concepts were inspired by the pre-Flashpoint heroes; but arguably, none of them are the pre-Flashpoint heroes.

What DC should do (should have done) is just let the members of the JSA from the 1940s have their own separate Earth with a minimal interference in their backstories. Otherwise, don't pretend that these sort-of characters are the "New 52-and-improved!" JSA that many of us use to enjoy when we were younger.

Conversely, don’t assume that any attempt to put JSA-like characters on Earth-0 is an attempt to replace the original JSA with “pretenders”. I’m a huge fan of the JSA, and I would definitely like to see an alternate Earth in the Multiverse that features the original JSA and its exploits; but that’s an entirely separate issue from the question of whether or not something resembling the JSA could be incorporated into Earth-0, as the original poster was asking. It’s not like having one precludes having the other.

(Oh, and by the way, while I was not happy with DC's New 52 Earth 2 as I first learned about it, James Robinson did win me over as long as I accepted they weren't the JSA I use to know and were instead new characters. Then Tom Taylor screwed all that up!)

Oh? So Tom Taylor’s saying that the heroes of Earth 2 are the JSA you used to know? If so, I suspect he’s delusional.

[colonyofcells]

For the New 52 reboot, I view it as a remake of the golden age so all the superheroes are about the same age as Superman. Superheroes who age and have children can be given a separate earth.

[bat39]

I think the debate over who is the 'real' JSA is a pretty moot topic, when you consider their publication history.

I mean, who are the 'real JSA'? The characters published in the Golden Age comics? The characters published in Silver/Bronze Age comics who hailed from 'Earth 2'? The Post-COIE characters with slightly retconned pasts who were incorporated into a new continuity?

Is the 'JSI' of the post-IC Earth 2 more 'real' than the New 52 versions of the JSA?

For that matter, why is the New 52 Alan Scott not the 'real' Alan Scott? After all, Batman has been updated, modernized and reinvented over the decades, and no one claimed that he's no longer the 'real' Batman. What's happened to Alan Scott in the New 52 is pretty similar to what happened to Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman after the Golden Age.

The reason of course is that the Trinity and the Silver Age characters are the 'icons' who have evolved with the times while the Golden Age heroes have been preserved as relics of a bygone era. Of course, when they were first reintroduced, they weren't relics so much as parallel universe counterparts of the Justice League.

Basically, the JSA have been imbued with new meanings over time, but none of them are inherent to the characters themselves. What Robinson did with Earth 2 was take the Golden Age characters as characters, rather than doppelgangers or relics, and reinvent them like how the Silver Age characters had been reinvented (somewhat more radically, I admit). But now the JSA's status as relics of a bygone age has been so well cemented that its difficult for most fans to see them as anything other than that.

[MajorHoy]

Are you referring to Evil Superman and the War that Robinson introduced and started in the last panel when he left the book? " Basically saying F U DC now clean that up"

The one Taylor dragged out for how many more mediocre issues before I dropped the title?
(And let's not even get into Rex Mason(?!?) having the Miraclo formula, something that not even the editors fixed before they wound up looking silly and clueless.)

Oh? So Tom Taylor’s saying that the heroes of Earth 2 are the JSA you used to know? If so, I suspect he’s delusional.

No, I'm not aware of him saying that. I was saying that Taylor screwed up a book I had been able to enjoy under Robinson.

[GlennSimpson]

(And let's not even get into Rex Mason(?!?) having the Miraclo formula, something that not even the editors fixed before they wound up looking silly and clueless.)

Hint: It's not the editors who look silly in this situation. It's the people getting so upset about a simple and reasonable mistake.

[GlennSimpson]

I think the debate over who is the 'real' JSA is a pretty moot topic, when you consider their publication history.

I mean, who are the 'real JSA'? The characters published in the Golden Age comics? The characters published in Silver/Bronze Age comics who hailed from 'Earth 2'? The Post-COIE characters with slightly retconned pasts who were incorporated into a new continuity?

Is the 'JSI' of the post-IC Earth 2 more 'real' than the New 52 versions of the JSA?

For that matter, why is the New 52 Alan Scott not the 'real' Alan Scott? After all, Batman has been updated, modernized and reinvented over the decades, and no one claimed that he's no longer the 'real' Batman. What's happened to Alan Scott in the New 52 is pretty similar to what happened to Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman after the Golden Age.

The reason of course is that the Trinity and the Silver Age characters are the 'icons' who have evolved with the times while the Golden Age heroes have been preserved as relics of a bygone era. Of course, when they were first reintroduced, they weren't relics so much as parallel universe counterparts of the Justice League.

Basically, the JSA have been imbued with new meanings over time, but none of them are inherent to the characters themselves. What Robinson did with Earth 2 was take the Golden Age characters as characters, rather than doppelgangers or relics, and reinvent them like how the Silver Age characters had been reinvented (somewhat more radically, I admit). But now the JSA's status as relics of a bygone age has been so well cemented that its difficult for most fans to see them as anything other than that.

While I'm not one of the "bring back the real JSA" folks, I do acknowledge that there are certain traits that the JSA maintained from the Golden Age to before the new52 that are obviously what that group feels are important. That would be the names (Alan Scott, Jay Garrick, Al Pratt et al) and the basic costumes and names, the notion of being the first public super-heroes in their history, and being tied to World War II, with all of the cultural traits that would go along with that. And, for some, the notion of the JSA guiding the next generations of heroes.

Why those particular qualities are so important, someone else would have to answer, but I think it's fair to say that it's not difficult to define "the real JSA" as requested by that group.

[bat39]

While I'm not one of the "bring back the real JSA" folks, I do acknowledge that there are certain traits that the JSA maintained from the Golden Age to before the new52 that are obviously what that group feels are important. That would be the names (Alan Scott, Jay Garrick, Al Pratt et al) and the basic costumes and names, the notion of being the first public super-heroes in their history, and being tied to World War II, with all of the cultural traits that would go along with that. And, for some, the notion of the JSA guiding the next generations of heroes.

Why those particular qualities are so important, someone else would have to answer, but I think it's fair to say that it's not difficult to define "the real JSA" as requested by that group.

Agreed.

I'm just saying that, in that case, a reintroduction of the 'real JSA' would be on par with, say, 'Batman 66'...a nostalgic 'retro'-universe.

Okay, I agree the JSA were made relevant in a modern context in the pre-52 universe. But the universe that sustained that status quo is gone. If you want to bring back the 'original JSA', you basically need to put them in a new reality or context that is essentially a 'retro' universe reflecting a past status quo.

[andersonh1]

DC killed off the original Superman in Infinite Crisis, so who cares if the current version is supposed to be the original? It's marketing, nothing else. It's never felt significant or meaningful. So by all means, let's have heroes who appeared before him. It never hurt Superman's status before.

I'd also depower them significantly.

Just to touch on this one point, the original JSA already had a lot of non-powered characters on the roster (which admittedly varied over time, so they weren't always contemporaries). The Atom, Sandman, Black Canary, Dr. Mid-Nite (he could see in the dark, so a borderline example), Wildcat and Mr. Terrific. You do have powerhouses like the Flash, Green Lantern, Doctor Fate and the Spectre of course, but there was a surprisingly large amount of street-level characters on the team.

Of course, if you want an entire team with non-powered characters, there's always the GA Seven Soldiers of Victory.

[Powerboy]

I think the short answer to the OP is a resounding "No".

I think the long answer to the OP is

"No, because in too many people's eyes, the JSA is tied to World War II, for better or worse.

True that. I very much enjoyed the "Smallville" version of the JSA. But I also noticed they kept trying to give them a sort of 1940s or 1950s vibe in terms of doing some flashbacks in black and white and other cinematic techniques to cover for the fact that the Smallville JSA could not possibly have gone back further as a team than maybe the late 1980s at the most. I also kept smiling that they were trying to convey them as a team that went way back but I kept thinking, "It was only the late '80s." Of course, it's perspective. If you're twenty years old, the '80s were a long time ago. So yes, I think the JLA is irrevocably locked into the 1940s and WWII for most readers. Not being willing to throw out a long DCU history and start over is always going to make it difficult to keep Superman the first super hero in the modern world.

[Powerboy]

But why refer to something like that as the "JSA"? They wouldn't be the JSA, so it's silly to pretend they are.

Yeah, you could put together a bunch of non-or-low-powered "Mystery Men" who were more "urban legends" than public costumed adventurers. Guys like Crimson Avenger, The Guardian, Manhunter, Mr. Terrific, Phantom Lady, Sandman, The Vigilante, Wildcat, etc. But they wouldn't be the "JSA". (They wouldn't even be the Seven Soldiers of Victory / The Law's Legionnaires.)

I think that's an inevitable problem with all restarts. The same criticism could be made of Superman or any character and many fans do feel that way about Superman as they do about the JSA. I remember when DC re-introduced the original Golden Age Superman. Okay, he was a "reimagining", not what that character really was in the old stories. But I think there were probably a significant number of fans that wished DC would keep him instead of the Post-Crisis Superman.

I say that not to start a pointless Pre-Crisis versus Post-Crisis argument but simply that there was a visceral reaction that the "real" Superman was back. So I think that, if companies are going to do reboots at all and not stick to the continuity as published (which, in turn, would lead to problems about ignoring the passage of time for many readers if you've got characters who span decades and just ignore the aging factor), this sort of thing is just an inevitable consequence that has to be accepted.

[Powerboy]

The mistake is attaching them to a specific real time dates and events.

You can reference a past war with a fantastic dieselpunk/deco aesthetic but never date it.
That era had a look for sci-fi and fantasy, that should be the only reference to "old", a visual cue. Not an actual date.
Reference all the Nazi and Axis aesthetic and do caricature pastiches of real players.
I mean it's what comics do anyway, the genre not just allows it, it encourages it.

Kids read it as an old war, which is all that matters, and adults would recognize the exact references.
Batman the Animated series captured a pulpy/deco time, but could also read as modern looking.
It never dated itself, and read as timeless, You saw what you want.

you can use an older generation of heroes, just don't give a date. Old is purely an aesthetic cue.
As to why how they can predate Superman, as has been pointed out, make them Mystery men who worked completely undercover.

And if you must reference Superman as the first public hero and inspiration for all, do a reverse Legion, and either have him visit the past. or better have someone peek into the "future" and be inspired by him.



.

I had that idea too. Marvel did something like that in one of their animated versions where they had the Nazis and Hydra being around in WWII. But in order to take the Cold War stories of the early 1960s, update them to more recently, and have them still happen in a manner that at least resembled the original stories, they replaced the Soviet Union with Hydra. So the Black Widow, the Titanium Man and all of these other Soviet enemies became Hydra operatives.

DC could do something like that if they replaced the Nazis with a fictitious, more recent enemy. Then you might be able to pull off the Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc., having their histories more or less intact. There is never going to be and never was completely consistent continuity. But you could rationalize that the Golden, Silver, Bronze and Post-Crisis eras all happened in some fashion.

I haven't read Marvel lately so I may be wrong here but one of the strengths I always found was this. Say I read the latest Fantastic Four and I want to know where these characters came from. I can just read FF #1, 1961. Corny by today's standards. Have to sort of squint my brain and pretend it happened more recently and somewhat differently. But, in essence, I can read that and say, yes, that is where they started and those old stories still happened in some fashion.

I can't do that with Superman. Action Comics #1 just did not happen as far as later continuities are concerned. Wonder Woman (and I mean Diana) did not leave the Island to fight a world threatening enemy that was basically the Nazis.

Personally, I would prefer a continuity that allows for the old stories, with all their greatness and all their corniness, having happened in some fashion. Simply not destroying all of those "realities" would have been a good method. If you just assume time passes differently in different realities, then there would have still been the possibility of occasional special reappearances. The only way to get that now would be not to have facsimiles of the old realities but to genuinely bring them back.