Can The JSA exist in Earth 0 without negating Superman as the first public hero?

[CSTowle]

I always liked the Starheart/mystical explanation. A similar power, but not the same.

[andersonh1]

In real comic book history, superman's debut in 1938 did inspire most of the other superheroes.

In the real world, yes. Everyone saw how successful the character was and wanted to benefit from it with characters of their own.

In the golden age comics, I don't think anyone states specifically that they were inspired by Superman's example. I know both Red Tornado and Wildcat were inspired by Green Lantern (Alan Scott), which is interesting. DC is currently trying to reinforce the image of Superman as the first and most prominent superhero, but have they really done anything with that in their stories? Have they had any characters act or be inspired by Superman's example? Or has making him the first again been entirely symbolic, with no real impact on their fictional universe?

[Dataweaver]

The only time in all my years of reading comics that I can recall Superman being presented as an inspiration to other heroes in the sense that it had actual consequences was in Kingdom Come — and there was nothing in KC that implied that he had been the first superhero.

As for the Golden Age heroes making the Silver Age heroes into legacies: that doesn’t bother me in the least. If you’re arguing that Superman should come first and be the inspiration that triggered the rest because that’s what happened in the real world, then by all rights you should also acknowledge that Barry Allen and Hal Jordan were created as reimaginings of Jay Garrick and Alan Scott. So the idea that something like the JSA preceded the Justice League is also a nod to the publication history of the characters. Even if you place them on different Earths, the same line of reasoning that insists that Superman had to come first would also insist that the Earth of the Golden Age heroes ought to be older than the Earth of the Silver Age heroes.

More generally, Barry Allen doesn’t become any less heroic or special because he took inspiration from Jay Garrick when he became the Flash. I’m using this example in particular because that’s what actually happened in the Silver Age comics: when Barry met Jay in “Flash of Two Worlds”, he told Jay that he had been inspired by stories of Jay’s exploits. It didn’t make him any less of a hero to be a legacy of Jay Garrick back then; why would it do so now?

[Jim Kelly]

I remember a scene in YOUNG HEROES IN LOVE, where they talked about the time that Superman died--and the time he came back from the dead. That was quite a good scene and showed how you could build a world. But there aren't many books like YHIL, unfortunately.

I always thought it was neat that on Earth-Two, for the most part, heroes didn't take the same name as those that came before them. It was a nice distinction. It was like retiring the number of a great player. There could only be one Superman, one Batman, one Green Lantern.

[The Darknight Detective]

The only time in all my years of reading comics that I can recall Superman being presented as an inspiration to other heroes in the sense that it had actual consequences was in Kingdom Come — and there was nothing in KC that implied that he had been the first superhero.

Pre-Crisis, Superman was the first superhero, since he was Superboy. In fact, this goes back to the Golden Age.

As for the Golden Age heroes making the Silver Age heroes into legacies: that doesn’t bother me in the least. If you’re arguing that Superman should come first and be the inspiration that triggered the rest because that’s what happened in the real world, then by all rights you should also acknowledge that Barry Allen and Hal Jordan were created as reimaginings of Jay Garrick and Alan Scott. So the idea that something like the JSA preceded the Justice League is also a nod to the publication history of the characters. Even if you place them on different Earths, the same line of reasoning that insists that Superman had to come first would also insist that the Earth of the Golden Age heroes ought to be older than the Earth of the Silver Age heroes.

More generally, Barry Allen doesn’t become any less heroic or special because he took inspiration from Jay Garrick when he became the Flash. I’m using this example in particular because that’s what actually happened in the Silver Age comics: when Barry met Jay in “Flash of Two Worlds”, he told Jay that he had been inspired by stories of Jay’s exploits. It didn’t make him any less of a hero to be a legacy of Jay Garrick back then; why would it do so now?

I agree. Having Barry being inspired by Jay's comic-book exploits is still the way to go! Actually, I thought that was silly when I first read it 40-something years ago.

[The Darknight Detective]

I always thought it was neat that on Earth-Two, for the most part, heroes didn't take the same name as those that came before them. It was a nice distinction. It was like retiring the number of a great player. There could only be one Superman, one Batman, one Green Lantern.

Agreed. That was a very nice difference between the two Earths.

[colonyofcells]

Maybe Sargon the Sorceress needs a more original name instead of following her father's name. Superman number 20 does sound a bit unoriginal.

[Jon Clark]

Can somebody break down for me the importance of having Superman be the "first public hero" in current canon? I'd heard that before, but it barely registered (seemed unimportant to the character and his story). I know in reality he's the first high-profile superhero character that existed, but this is the New 52 and if they don't want him to be some immortal with his family and friends having died decades ago (not to mention losing all of the wonderful history of the Golden Age era JSA characters), what's the appeal? Just to say he's first? We all know that in real life, why does it need to be reinforced in the comics?

To me it undercuts Superman's role in the DCU as "top hero" if he is basically just a modern day rehashing of prior DC heroes. Is Metropolis really that excited by a guy who flies if for decades they have seen Hawkman? Is a guy "faster than a speeding bullet" going to impress when Jay Garrick was doing that trick (along with Johnny Quick) when your grand-parents were kids? It's like trying to establish The Batman as terrifying Gotham's criminals if they'd been facing The Shadow, Green Hornet, and The Spider for the past several decades before Bruce ever appears on the scene.

[Dataweaver]

Pre-Crisis, Superman was the first superhero, since he was Superboy. In fact, this goes back to the Golden Age.

Yes; but I’m not arguing that he was never the first; that would just be silly. I’m arguing that he has almost never been portrayed as the inspiration for other superheroes who followed; and when he has, it has either been a purely meta-thing (the publication of the Golden Age Superman inspired the comics industry to publish other superheroes; but not one of those other Golden Age heroes was personally inspired by Superman the way Barry was inspired by Jay) or it has had nothing to do with whether or not Superman came first. Really, the first DC hero I can think of who did take inspiration from the Man of Steel was John Henry Irons.

Actually, I take that back: arguably, the original Legion of Superheroes took their inspiration from Superman, as did the pre-Crisis Superwoman. But his contemporaries? Nope. Not until Kingdom Come did you get the notion that the superhero community takes its cues from Superman.

[Jon Clark]

Oh and the one thing the "real" JSA had going for it by the time of Crisis (and recovered under the Johns/Robinson relaunch around 2000) was a real sense of history. It's something no one other than Captain America or Namor can really lay claim to. It's not a character created in 2014 with a backstory covering decades, it's a real history that spanned those decades. Even if you didn't know the details of every story published with these characters there was a versimillitude that good writers could use. Jay Garrick's character (or Alan Scott/Doctor Fate/Johnny Thunder...) was shaped by multiple writers over 70+ years in ways no single writer could have done (especially in a character created from scratch today). There were quirks and inconsistencies that felt "real". And you knew if you were really that curious about these characters there was tons of info on them (old stories, fan websites, DC Who's Who ...)

[Dataweaver]

This. Personally, I would love it if one of the 52 worlds turned out to be a “Robinsonverse”, with the likes of Golden Age, the Starman of the 90s, the JSA that it spawned, and the two Shade series all in continuity on that Earth — along with everything implied by them: John Byrne’s Superman, the post-Zero Hour Legion of Superheroes, the various costumed characters that the Shade encountered during his rather lengthy career…

[bat39]

I think the significance of Superman being first in the New 52 was, in a way, to turn his origin into a 'first contact' story between humanity and superhumans. So Superman gets to emerge in a world where no one has ever seen a man fly before (or at least, it isn't something widely known).

But if you think about, I don't think too many origin stories, even pre-52, tended to mention other characters. GL Secret Origin (which, for all intents and purposes, still is the official Hal Jordan origin) makes a brief reference to Superman (as someone who's newly emerged) but beyond that it is totally Green Lantern's story. You can read it, ignore the Superman reference, and assume that Hal was the first superhero.

Most DC characters' origins don't include references to other characters, since the idea of a shared universe hadn't really developed during the Golden Age (beyond the JSA) and even in the Silver Age it was a fledgling concept at best. Marvel differs in that sense, because they worked on building a shared universe from Day 1, and the early Stan Lee stories did suggest that Spider-Man was at least partially influenced by the Fantastic Four initially...though for the most part origin stories stayed separate.

[CSTowle]

To me it undercuts Superman's role in the DCU as "top hero" if he is basically just a modern day rehashing of prior DC heroes. Is Metropolis really that excited by a guy who flies if for decades they have seen Hawkman? Is a guy "faster than a speeding bullet" going to impress when Jay Garrick was doing that trick (along with Johnny Quick) when your grand-parents were kids? It's like trying to establish The Batman as terrifying Gotham's criminals if they'd been facing The Shadow, Green Hornet, and The Spider for the past several decades before Bruce ever appears on the scene.

Maybe it's different for people who've been reading for decades before the original Crisis, or are just picking up the books now, but I started reading after Crisis (or near enough not to have noticed as a kid) and nobody ever mentioned in the comics who was the first, but there was never any doubt about Superman's place in the DCU. And it had f###-all to do with planting his flag as "first guy in". If DC retconned the universe again (which seems like a possibility, if not my specific example) and added the detail that the Martian Manhunter was the first powered hero would that elevate him to Superman status? Would it diminish Superman's status in the eyes of the vast, vast majority of anyone reading a superhero comic or watching the cartoons/movies? I think the clear answer to all of these questions is "No".

In fact, in All-Star Western and Stormwatch in the New 52 there have been canon superheroes for centuries (and Adam One/Merlin is said to be an immortal born during the Big Bang, how's that for planting your flag first?). So even in the "New 52" he's not really "first". So you scrap 70 years of JSA history to give a very cheap and very small boost to the ego of a guy who literally calls himself "Superman", and clearly doesn't need the extra hype? Or worse yet, send the JSA into that horrible limbo they were in during the '70s and '80s fighting Nazis and having almost nobody give a damn about them. It really sounds like they asked a random 8 year old Superman fan how they should set up their history. Who should be the first hero Timmy? "Superman, he's the bestest." And who should Superman date Timmy? "Ugh, girls. I guess Wonder Woman. She's also the bestest girl." Thanks, Timmy. You've been a lot of help.

[Jon Clark]

Maybe it's different for people who've been reading for decades before the original Crisis, or are just picking up the books now, but I started reading after Crisis (or near enough not to have noticed as a kid) and nobody ever mentioned in the comics who was the first, but there was never any doubt about Superman's place in the DCU. And it had f###-all to do with planting his flag as "first guy in". If DC retconned the universe again (which seems like a possibility, if not my specific example) and added the detail that the Martian Manhunter was the first powered hero would that elevate him to Superman status? Would it diminish Superman's status in the eyes of the vast, vast majority of anyone reading a superhero comic or watching the cartoons/movies? I think the clear answer to all of these questions is "No".

In fact, in All-Star Western and Stormwatch in the New 52 there have been canon superheroes for centuries (and Adam One/Merlin is said to be an immortal born during the Big Bang, how's that for planting your flag first?). So even in the "New 52" he's not really "first". So you scrap 70 years of JSA history to give a very cheap and very small boost to the ego of a guy who literally calls himself "Superman", and clearly doesn't need the extra hype? Or worse yet, send the JSA into that horrible limbo they were in during the '70s and '80s fighting Nazis and having almost nobody give a damn about them. It really sounds like they asked a random 8 year old Superman fan how they should set up their history. Who should be the first hero Timmy? "Superman, he's the bestest." And who should Superman date Timmy? "Ugh, girls. I guess Wonder Woman. She's also the bestest girl." Thanks, Timmy. You've been a lot of help.

I'm not talking about the reader's perceptions. I'm saying that one of the things that seemed off in Byrne's Man Of Steel was the idea that in a world that had Alan Scott, Dr. Fate, and the Spectre in the 1940's that anyone would be wowed by Superman's debut in the 1980's. Again, not the people reading the comic, the people in the comic. To them everything Superman can do is old hat. He's the magician pulling rabbits out of hats and sawing women in half not someone performing miraculous feats. Lois wouldn't be trying to track him down for an interview because no one would be interested in reading it, anymore than they would be interested in a story on the latest runner to break the four-minute mile.

But when Superman is the first guy anyone sees performing these feats, then I can see why the guy on the street is impressed. Why even after there are a dozen guys doing the same things, Superman is still a name people remember.

[bat39]

I'm not talking about the reader's perceptions. I'm saying that one of the things that seemed off in Byrne's Man Of Steel was the idea that in a world that had Alan Scott, Dr. Fate, and the Spectre in the 1940's that anyone would be wowed by Superman's debut in the 1980's. Again, not the people reading the comic, the people in the comic. To them everything Superman can do is old hat. He's the magician pulling rabbits out of hats and sawing women in half not someone performing miraculous feats. Lois wouldn't be trying to track him down for an interview because no one would be interested in reading it, anymore than they would be interested in a story on the latest runner to break the four-minute mile.

But when Superman is the first guy anyone sees performing these feats, then I can see why the guy on the street is impressed. Why even after there are a dozen guys doing the same things, Superman is still a name people remember.

Well, the way they set it up Post-COIE is that Superman was the first superhero in decades. By the end of the Post-COIE/New Earth continuity, Superman would have debuted a good 45-50 years after the JSA were a thing (since the JSA retired in 1951 and Superman, as off 2011, would have debuted sometime in the late 1990's/early 2000's). So Superman emerging may well have been the first time the vast majority of people on earth had seen a man fly (they may have read about other superheroes in history books and even seen some film/documentary footage but its not quiet the same thing). Then again, the way MOS and other modern Superman origins set it up, it did seem like Superman was the very first time something like this had been seen in the world...but they didn't completely preclude the possibility of others having come before.