NYCC: DeConnick, Simone & Amanat on the Future of Female Fandom

[SXVA]

They do diversify. Men do read and enjoy Captain Marvel. I can't remember if it was this panel or the Women of Marvel panel (it's all sort of a blur)... but one guy in the audience asked if they thought we'd get away from the idea that there's "boy" comics and "girl" comics. KSD asked, "How many men in the audience read Captain Marvel?" A LOT of hands went up. "Done! Next question?"

Women can read any enjoy books starring men. Men can read and enjoy books starring women. Nothing about Captain Marvel makes it a "girls only" book.

Agree, most of my heroes are Female characters and favorite things are Female driven/focused and if anything i always feel excluded when this topic comes up because that's rarely acknowledged, it always seems like a fight for Female characters/creators being for Female fans and the guy fans who are just as passionate for all of this... sometimes it can seem like they're excluded.... but... fair enough, it's okay.

[Rosebunse]

I am not woman myself, but I do think it is unfair to assume women read books with female leads.

I would argue that the Loki book is geared more to women, and it seems like vocal minority of male fans on this forum had quite the problem with that, and some still do.

[Tiamatty]

being a girl doesn't instantly make you a Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Storm, Black Widow etc. fan. (any more than it means that no guys like those characters)

Well hey now! Maybe being a girl doesn't make you a Ms. Marvel fan, but being a comic book fan should make you a Ms. Marvel fan. Because Ms. Marvel is awesome.

[CaTigeReptile]

THANOSRULES, this bit:



It's only harsh because it's true. It's such an obvious and simple thing, "oh women are people too! of course! who knew! hurhur "... and yet so many writers, professional or amateur, utterly FAIL at managing to do this incredibly simple and obvious thing.

Pretty much all the other related issues, stem from this base one, be it the ridiculous over sexualization or the fridging or the supposed female hive mind. It all comes from a perspective where women aren't actual people, with their own individual wants, needs and goals. If you can get creators to wrap their heads around that one simple and obvious idea, the other stuff usually fixes itself.

Agreed. One good example is how "sexy male" characters are portrayed as being sexy, and how "sexy female" characters are portrayed that way:

A female character is shown as being sexy by, well, being what "the male consumer" considers to be sexy (physically, personality-wise, etc).

A male character is shown as being sexy by being surrounded by sexy women (who are all for some reason attracted to the usually not very attractive and certainly ugly-personality-wise male character).

Nowhere is there even the idea of "the female consumer" in the same way - that is, the idea to indicate that a male character is sexually attractive to women by actually making him sexy to female readers instead of piling these mythical, dehumanized Hot Babes onto him (sorry for all the generalization since everyone is different but you get the idea, and I am talking about cishets right now too, but I think it applies for all dehumanized people) in a way that makes female readers extremely uncomfortable with both the character and the book . . .

And wouldn't that then imply that most in-universe women would ALSO be made uncomfortable by that character, and thus he would never be able to BE in the situation where he's covered in piles of writhing women? The funny thing is, the "real" female characters, i.e. the lead characters, are usually the ones who are disgusted by said male character. However, you've still got that giant presence of the 'hot babes' that for some reason are into him - they're not at all considered actual real people (? Characters? You get what I mean) in any part of this. Dehumanized ornaments or robots. THEN that throws in the whole "I'm not like the other girls" angle . . . oops, tangent

So it's not even an issue of pretending female characters are people, but it goes so far as to even mean having to remember that real-life women are people, too, and they're reading your books and seeing how you are portraying them. Even hot chicks are people. I could talk about agency and sexuality and all those things, but I've said the thing I intended to say here.

[Sea Hound]

Agree, most of my heroes are Female characters and favorite things are Female driven/focused and if anything i always feel excluded when this topic comes up because that's rarely acknowledged, it always seems like a fight for Female characters/creators being for Female fans and the guy fans who are just as passionate for all of this... sometimes it can seem like they're excluded.... but... fair enough, it's okay.

That's true of lots of male fans I've found, and I suspect in truth none of the female solo books would survive without support from you. We do sometimes forget to acknowledge you sometimes, in our excitement at feeling a change.

You know how if 50 people are nice to you, and one is really rude; then you tend to focus on the abusive one? I guess it's not fair to the other 50. The male fans who are hostile to more female creators/more meaningful female roles/female fans in general are a small group really relative to the majority. I certainly appreciate it when a male fan speaks up. So sorry if you feel taken for granted.

Certainly when the wider media reports on comic fandom and gender issues, they often repeat the views of the most extreme minority; or the lunatics who make death/rape threats. That really doesn't reflect the majority of interactions I've had here on the forum. I guess "male fans supportive of female creators and characters" isn't the story they want to tell.

I agree with all the posters who don't like being pigeon holed into the idea that female creators/characters are for female fans and vice versa. I also don't like female writers just getting work on female characters. My favourite characters are a mixed bunch, and while I'm slightly more likely to pick up a book with a female writer, that's a conscious decision to give support, rather than an inherent preference one way or the other. My main criteria for continuing to read comes down to whether I think it's good or not..

[Rosebunse]

Agreed. One good example is how "sexy male" characters are portrayed as being sexy, and how "sexy female" characters are portrayed that way:

A female character is shown as being sexy by, well, being what "the male consumer" considers to be sexy (physically, personality-wise, etc).

A male character is shown as being sexy by being surrounded by sexy women (who are all for some reason attracted to the usually not very attractive and certainly ugly-personality-wise male character).

Nowhere is there even the idea of "the female consumer" in the same way - that is, the idea to indicate that a male character is sexually attractive to women by actually making him sexy to female readers instead of piling these mythical, dehumanized Hot Babes onto him (sorry for all the generalization since everyone is different but you get the idea, and I am talking about cishets right now too, but I think it applies for all dehumanized people) in a way that makes female readers extremely uncomfortable with both the character and the book . . .

And wouldn't that then imply that most in-universe women would ALSO be made uncomfortable by that character, and thus he would never be able to BE in the situation where he's covered in piles of writhing women? The funny thing is, the "real" female characters, i.e. the lead characters, are usually the ones who are disgusted by said male character. However, you've still got that giant presence of the 'hot babes' that for some reason are into him - they're not at all considered actual real people (? Characters? You get what I mean) in any part of this. Dehumanized ornaments or robots. THEN that throws in the whole "I'm not like the other girls" angle . . . oops, tangent

So it's not even an issue of pretending female characters are people, but it goes so far as to even mean having to remember that real-life women are people, too. Even hot chicks are people. I could talk about agency and sexuality and all those things, but I've said the thing I intended to say here.

This is all so true. I think the only character I can think of to be drawn in a way FOR female readers is the new Loki...and maybe Spider-Man sometimes because, let's be honest, he has the best ass in comics.

[SXVA]

That's true of lots of male fans I've found, and I suspect in truth none of the female solo books would survive without support from you. We do sometimes forget to acknowledge you sometimes, in our excitement at feeling a change.

You know how if 50 people are nice to you, and one is really rude; then you tend to focus on the abusive one? I guess it's not fair to the other 50. The male fans who are hostile to more female creators/more meaningful female roles/female fans in general are a small group really relative to the majority. I certainly appreciate it when a male fan speaks up. So sorry if you feel taken for granted.

Certainly when the wider media reports on comic fandom and gender issues, they often repeat the views of the most extreme minority; or the lunatics who make death/rape threats. That really doesn't reflect the majority of interactions I've had here on the forum. I guess "male fans supportive of female creators and characters" isn't the story they want to tell.

I agree with all the posters who don't like being pigeon holed into the idea that female creators/characters are for female fans and vice versa. I also don't like female writers just getting work on female characters. My favourite characters are a mixed bunch, and while I'm slightly more likely to pick up a book with a female writer, that's a conscious decision to give support, rather than an inherent preference one way or the other. My main criteria for continuing to read comes down to whether I think it's good or not..

Thanks. Very nice thing to say.

In many ways, male or Female we're in the same boat. The way some Females might find it difficult to relate to certain things or find heroes or a perspective and stories they can connect with, some males also find themselves in that situation as well, as they connect with and relate to the same things or at least very similar things. I understand the Female focus though and i'm willing to take a backseat for that, as even though i'm in a fairly similar position i've still had some things my way whereas Females have had a more difficult position and require more focus for change... which i get, and if that change happens more and more it's something positive for me as well. It's just nice to not be excluded sometimes. Hehe.

I agree about the Female creators/artists not having to be on Female characters, etc... Personally, i think Joss Whedon creates/writes some of the best Female characters ever. He's created characters that remain my personal heroes forever and that deeply inspire and empower me. Not only that but he completely changed the way i viewed Female characters and that opened me up to having Female characters as my main heroes and who i connected with. So... i don't think you need to be the same gender as the character necessarily.

[Sea Hound]

Thanks. Very nice thing to say.

In many ways, male or Female we're in the same boat. The way some Females might find it difficult to relate to certain things or find heroes or a perspective and stories they can connect with, some males also find themselves in that situation as well, as they connect with and relate to the same things or at least very similar things. I understand the Female focus though and i'm willing to take a backseat for that, as even though i'm in a fairly similar position i've still had some things my way whereas Females have had a more difficult position and require more focus for change... which i get, and if that change happens more and more it's something positive for me as well. It's just nice to not be excluded sometimes. Hehe.

I agree about the Female creators/artists not having to be on Female characters, etc... Personally, i think Joss Whedon creates/writes some of the best Female characters ever. He's created characters that remain my personal heroes forever and that deeply inspire and empower me. Not only that but he completely changed the way i viewed Female characters and that opened me up to having Female characters as my main heroes and who i connected with. So... i don't think you need to be the same gender as the character necessarily.

You're welcome.

I think finding facets which resonate with me, in a character who's very different is a powerful thing. Glad you've had those moments of connection too.

[Raye]

Well hey now! Maybe being a girl doesn't make you a Ms. Marvel fan, but being a comic book fan should make you a Ms. Marvel fan. Because Ms. Marvel is awesome.

I have been meaning to get it in trades after hearing good things about it, but I have not gotten around to it yet >.>

[hawkeyefan]

I think KSD made some really good points in the article, as many have already stated. But it got me thinking...if all characters can potentially appeal to all readers, and the idea of a comic being "for boys" or "for girls" is outdated....how does that jibe with changes such as that being made to Thor and Captain America and so on?

A lot of the explanation for changes such as the female Thor is that it helps diversify things and people like to have characters they can relate to and so on. The implication being that because the new Thor is a woman, that women readers will be more likely to relate to her.

Do those two ideas seem contradictory? What do you think?

[Raye]

Because while any person can like any character and gender should not matter, there is an indisputable imbalance in the number of straight white male characters compared to.... everything else. This doesn't make those characters inherently bad or anything, and is mostly just a byproduct of the fact that most of these characters were created in the 60's or earlier, and times were different back then. But it doesn't mean the imbalance should not be addressed. And while the gender of a character may be largely irrelevant to me when it comes to reading a book or being a fan of a character, it is still nice to see different types of female (or other races, or whatever) be created. representation is important to show and support in a general sort of sense, so the MU reflects reality in that regard, the universe feels more genuine that way.

[SXVA]

I think KSD made some really good points in the article, as many have already stated. But it got me thinking...if all characters can potentially appeal to all readers, and the idea of a comic being "for boys" or "for girls" is outdated....how does that jibe with changes such as that being made to Thor and Captain America and so on?

A lot of the explanation for changes such as the female Thor is that it helps diversify things and people like to have characters they can relate to and so on. The implication being that because the new Thor is a woman, that women readers will be more likely to relate to her.

Do those two ideas seem contradictory? What do you think?

I do believe that both males and Females can connect and relate to a character no matter what gender the character is... [I'm just one example of that in what i mentioned previously] Depending more on the character.

However, i still think there needs to be a diverse representation..

Could minorities relate to and connect with a white character? They could, but is that reason enough to have nothing but white characters... it still seems important to have that diverse representation exist. It speaks to inclusion and embracing of various representations, and people and views. Even though in a lot of ways we're all the same we're also different in some ways and it can be an empowering and inspirational thing to have a representation in such a context.

So... thinking briefly on it, i could be wrong but ultimately i think it's more about inclusion in that context than anything.

Speaking from a personal perspective and my connection to characters, there's a difference in male/Female characters with intimacy... separate from everything else that generally goes with relating to and connecting with a character, i can feel closer to, and more intimate with Female characters than i can male characters which i feel gives me more of a versatile and stronger connection to Female characters than i feel with male characters. I don't know how that relates to others and their approach to things but for me that's another big reason in why i'd prefer a Female character and something that would separate them in my view.

Using Dawson's Creek as an example, there's Pacey/Dawson/Joey... i can connect with Pacey/Dawson from a similar level and i can also connect with Joey from the same level... of a cool, looking up to, finding inspiration from, being empowered by, etc... however, there's a separation with Joey in that i can find more intimacy and a stronger connection with the character that i can't with the two guys. This... i feel gives me a more intimate and stronger connection to Joey than the others even though i like all three characters and connect with, and relate to them all, etc.

So... that's just an additional variable added to the equation to my experience. I'm not sure how that relates for other people and their experiences.

[Sea Hound]

I think KSD made some really good points in the article, as many have already stated. But it got me thinking...if all characters can potentially appeal to all readers, and the idea of a comic being "for boys" or "for girls" is outdated....how does that jibe with changes such as that being made to Thor and Captain America and so on?

A lot of the explanation for changes such as the female Thor is that it helps diversify things and people like to have characters they can relate to and so on. The implication being that because the new Thor is a woman, that women readers will be more likely to relate to her.

Do those two ideas seem contradictory? What do you think?

Complicated question, and a good one.

I don't think most readers are gender blind exactly. Some comics have definitely been written just for boys. At their worst, with really hyper sexualised art, female characters having no role other than team babe, line wide male domination, and marginalisation of female creators I feel actively excluded from the party. It's hard to enjoy a good story with a male lead, if all the females are being treated badly. De Connick is right that there used to be a big female comic market: somewhere along the way that changed to the companies being very focussed on selling to just the male half. Now that comics are selling so much less the companies want to change that, and see women as an untapped market.


I think Marvel's comics line has improved, and is continuing to do so. I sincerely believe there's a sweet spot creatively where you can satisfy male readers, and female ones too. They also make a lot of comics: they don't all have to pitch for the same section of the market. There are stories which tend to appeal more to men and vice versa, there are ones which both genders are interested in.

The female Thor, and black Captain America got a lot of publicity. I think the writers would have written the stories that way anyway; but the way they were announced was definitely a bit gimmicky. It's Marvel saying to the wider public "hey, we're diverse. Thor is a lady! Cap's black!" It's hard to get media attention now: you could announce new black and female characters, and they really wouldn't get the same general focus. I can see why they did it.

I think Marvel are running two games: genuinely changing line wide representation, (a slow business); and also doing the flashy stuff to draw attention to it. (The cynic in me thinks it also draws attention away from their films division, where they have announced/made twentyish white male led movies in a row; but that's another argument and another part of the company.)

Bit of a rambly answer, but yes the same quality product will sell to both genders and different races or sexualities, but they need to show they are treating women/minorities fairly, and the flashy announcement are their way of showing the public they're changing.

[hawkeyefan]

Because while any person can like any character and gender should not matter, there is an indisputable imbalance in the number of straight white male characters compared to.... everything else. This doesn't make those characters inherently bad or anything, and is mostly just a byproduct of the fact that most of these characters were created in the 60's or earlier, and times were different back then. But it doesn't mean the imbalance should not be addressed. And while the gender of a character may be largely irrelevant to me when it comes to reading a book or being a fan of a character, it is still nice to see different types of female (or other races, or whatever) be created. representation is important to show and support in a general sort of sense, so the MU reflects reality in that regard, the universe feels more genuine that way.

Yeah, I agree with you about trying to more accurately represent alternative points of view. I get that and I am all for it. I just felt that KSD's comments in some ways ran contrary to that. Not directly...like I don't feel she was saying anything like diversity not being important...but more like saying if you tell a good story, and your character work is genuine, that's what's ultimately important. She mentioned something about focusing on differences rather than focusing on similarities.

I do believe that both males and Females can connect and relate to a character no matter what gender the character is... [I'm just one example of that in what i mentioned previously] Depending more on the character.

However, i still think there needs to be a diverse representation..

Could minorities relate to and connect with a white character? They could, but is that reason enough to have nothing but white characters... it still seems important to have that diverse representation exist. It speaks to inclusion and embracing of various representations, and people and views. Even though in a lot of ways we're all the same we're also different in some ways and it can be an empowering and inspirational thing to have a representation in such a context.

So... thinking briefly on it, i could be wrong but ultimately i think it's more about inclusion in that context than anything.

Speaking from a personal perspective and my connection to characters, there's a difference in male/Female characters with intimacy... separate from everything else that generally goes with relating to and connecting with a character, i can feel closer to, and more intimate with Female characters than i can male characters which i feel gives me more of a versatile and stronger connection to Female characters than i feel with male characters. I don't know how that relates to others and their approach to things but for me that's another big reason in why i'd prefer a Female character and something that would separate them in my view.

Using Dawson's Creek as an example, there's Pacey/Dawson/Joey... i can connect with Pacey/Dawson from a similar level and i can also connect with Joey from the same level... of a cool, looking up to, finding inspiration from, being empowered by, etc... however, there's a separation with Joey in that i can find more intimacy and a stronger connection with the character that i can't with the two guys. This... i feel gives me a more intimate and stronger connection to Joey than the others even though i like all three characters and connect with, and relate to them all, etc.

So... that's just an additional variable added to the equation to my experience. I'm not sure how that relates for other people and their experiences.

Yeah, I personally relate to a bunch of different characters. I think that's totally true. I am not familiar with Dawson's Creek, so your example is a little lost on me...except I think Joey is a girl, right?

I think it also depends on how characters are used. I can think of a few shows (good ones, too) where the female lead is simply the wife of the male lead, and all they do is serve as a foil of sorts to their husband. Now, on one level, I can get that....the story is about the guy so her part in the tale is how she affects him. Makes sense. But another part if me sees why that's bad....because it is so often the case that the female character is seen only through the lens of the male one. And I can understand how that fits the idea of "women in refrigerators", even though I feel that term sometimes is overused.

Complicated question, and a good one.

I don't think most readers are gender blind exactly. Some comics have definitely been written just for boys. At their worst, with really hyper sexualised art, female characters having no role other than team babe, line wide male domination, and marginalisation of female creators I feel actively excluded from the party. It's hard to enjoy a good story with a male lead, if all the females are being treated badly. De Connick is right that there used to be a big female comic market: somewhere along the way that changed to the companies being very focussed on selling to just the male half. Now that comics are selling so much less the companies want to change that, and see women as an untapped market.

I think Marvel's comics line has improved, and is continuing to do so. I sincerely believe there's a sweet spot creatively where you can satisfy male readers, and female ones too. They also make a lot of comics: they don't all have to pitch for the same section of the market. There are stories which tend to appeal more to men and vice versa, there are ones which both genders are interested in.

The female Thor, and black Captain America got a lot of publicity. I think the writers would have written the stories that way anyway; but the way they were announced was definitely a bit gimmicky. It's Marvel saying to the wider public "hey, we're diverse. Thor is a lady! Cap's black!" It's hard to get media attention now: you could announce new black and female characters, and they really wouldn't get the same general focus. I can see why they did it.

I think Marvel are running two games: genuinely changing line wide representation, (a slow business); and also doing the flashy stuff to draw attention to it. (The cynic in me thinks it also draws attention away from their films division, where they have announced/made twentyish white male led movies in a row; but that's another argument and another part of the company.)

Bit of a rambly answer, but yes the same quality product will sell to both genders and different races or sexualities, but they need to show they are treating women/minorities fairly, and the flashy announcement are their way of showing the public they're changing.

I suppose that the question becomes which would be the more important factor...the presence of diversity, or quality storytelling? I mean, it's a good thing we don't really have to choose. And I would think that more of the first will eventually lead to more of the second, simply by nature.

But if we somehow did have to choose, I would have to go with storytelling first. As KSD said, if a story focuses on things that we all share...themes and elements that are more universal...then they can appeal to a diverse audience.

I also have to add that I love how she said "right what you know" is a fallacy. Glad to hear someone say that.

[THANOSRULES]

Its NOT a fallacy though..It works and can add a genuine element to any writing. it can be a fallacy, certainly...but its not a rule, to hear Deconnick say that so aggressively and certain just makes her out to be less credible. Hundreds of examples of writers whose personally experiences galvanized elements of their fiction. Look at guys like Heinlein and Hemingway. Then are people like Twain who would somewhat support Deconnick. Honestly the fact her book is not my bag and doesn't sell well takes away from the credibility of what she's saying as well. I mean turns out you dont know what makes an ex pilot super hero avenger tick.