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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    You haven't seen Rachel stated as being Omega? So Xavier didn't say she only second to him in regards to TP Power/Mastery? Wait, he did say that. You do know Xavier "Is" an Omega right and if Rachel second to him(Whose #1 due to his power and experience), and is the most powerful TP user alive after his death even without the Phoenix, and has shown to demolish a ton of extremely powerful Avengers such as Thor than that means that she's an Omega and can actually back it up. She's also listed as Omega in handbooks, wikis, official biography and with the Phoenix Force she took on Galactus, demolished the Shi'ar, and easily defeated Gladiator. Only her mother has accomplished the feats such insane feats with the Phoenix and unlike her mother Rachel could actually control the Phoenix Force and mastered it in ways her mother never did while she was alive.

    So no. There's no "might" about it. Rachel "is" an Omega-Level with Omega Power and is the #1 TP-user upon Earth and that's a fact.


    Now this last part is simply untrue!

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    We are arguing semantics here, I'm not opposed to Rachel being an Omega Level Mutant but to say she's been cited as one on panel is erroneous. And while I'm willing to turn a blind eye to that scene in Hickmans run where it's implied she's actually not one, for people to try and cite that as evidence when it specifically singles Wolverine, Storm and Rachel as not Omega Mutates is ingeniune too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbodies View Post
    Now this last part is simply untrue!
    Niether is the statement of the handbook thing, she's never been cited as an Omega level mutant in the Marvel Handbooks either. Even in the 198 files Omega mutants like Franklin and Elixir were stated to be Omega but Rachel was not. There isn't a citation not yet anyway.

    The list on panel for "Omega Level Mutant" would be:

    Jean Grey & Iceman - X-Men Forever 3 and numerous times after.
    Franklin Richards - 198 Files and in one of the Fantastic Four arcs by Hickman.
    Elixir - New Mutants v2 & 198 Files
    Mr. M - X-Men 198 series and 198 Files
    Vulcan - Beyonds Omega Deadly Genesis and as Omega Level in RAFOTSE
    Stryfe - Uncanny X-Force v2 17
    Professor Xavier - As an Omega Level Mutant in the synopsis of Deadly Genesis
    Phoenix Emma Frost - As Omega Level Mutant in AvX Avengers Academy
    Legion - Omega Level Mutant in Second Coming and his ongoing.
    Mathew Malloy - Uncanny X-Men Bendis
    Kid Omega - He was cited as Omega Level Mutant recently in WATXM. I think before that was just Omega Level Telepath.
    Hope Summers - Marvel Handbook Phoenix Handbook IIRC as Omega Level Mutant.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 09-25-2014 at 03:18 AM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    Rachel is [...] an Omega-Level Telepath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    She [...] is the #1 Omega-Level Telepath [...]. There's no denying it, facts and facts and fact is that Rachel is still an Omega...
    Yep, she is an Omega Class contact according to Nimrod classification.
    Maybe she is an Omega-Level Telepath, but please give a reference where she has been explicitly stated to be an Omega-Level Telepath.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNOP View Post
    [CENTER]
    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Nope that's the exact scene both me and the other user referred to. She's not cited as omega level mutant. That scale is used for mutants and humans. In that scene he cites the avengers and hellfire club non mutants as class one contacts. He cites himself a robot as omega class too. Not the same definition or classification.
    Well it's clear here with the "Class-One contacts" who are first identified by their level then by their species designation, this Omega Class seems to be adapted as a threat level (like the Omega Level Threat) and not as a mutant power (like the Omega Level Mutant classification)(maybe gonna move Rachel from "Omega Level Mutants" to "Omega Level Threats" on wikia..).

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    He states that he himself is an Omega Contact. "Omega contact is on par with this unit". That his definition of it.
    Well, he say he is on par with her, not that he classify himself as such. It's a little difference but it is one anyway. Not sure if we should count Nimrod as Omega himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    The system he's using is more threat level rather then the system we're known to which was created much, much later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    Er all Nimrod has done is group mutants, humans and beings as contacts. It's fairly nitpicky when Rachel is the only Omega contact he specifies to say that because he doesn't specifically reference her as a mutant then it doesn't count. We know she's a mutant.
    I'm not sure of what you are saying Daithi, but if I don't mistake here, you're saying that because he knew she was a mutant, he did not mentioned it, but we have to count it as an Omega Class Mutant ? I can't say I agree: We know she is a mutant, we know she is an Omega Class. Well we can count her as an Omega Level Mutant or Threat, it seems reasonable, but she isn't an Omega Level Mutant as much as we could say for other clearly described as such. In the same way, if we agree on the fact that Nimrod classification is a threat classif (what it seems to be), we know the Spider Queen is a mutant, and she is an Omega Level Threat, but we don't count her as an Omega Level Mutant. Same if there was an Omega Level Mutates category, we would not count Hulk, Absorbing Man and the Spider Queen as Omega Level Mutates although they are mutants and Omega Level Threats. I think I will have to check that Nimrod classification soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    He doesn't specify any non-mutant as Omega so he's not including anyone but a mutant.
    Oh come on... That change nothing, he specify from the beginning (with the Class-One) that his classification can be applied to mutants and enhanced beings. There is no proof that a non-mutant could not be an Omega. You could say there is no proof that he could be, that's almost true, but if the Class-One can be used for both types of superhumans, why not the

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Actually again, those aren't facts. As once again she has never been cited as one on panel. I wouldn't be opposed to her being one but what you're stating is not a fact. It's an inference.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    I'm not opposed to Rachel being an Omega Level Mutant but to say she's been cited as one on panel is erroneous.
    Thanks, that's exactly how I see those things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Additionally, Supergiant just refers to Iceman as an Omega Level Mutate here.

    This issue is very unclear, for any of them. Iceman could be the Elemental, and be used to take down the Omega Level Mutates (Rachel and Storm), or he is the OLM and used to take down everyone (including Rachel and Storm), or he is an OLM used to take down everyone (specifically the OLM Rachel and Storm). Or even : Nobody is an OLM here according to Supergiant (she use the plural maybe as a generality), and she takes down everyone without targeting anybody. The "minor members with mental acuity" could be other telepaths like Martha or who knows who (members, plural here again)

    The thing is, Iceman, Rachel and Storm are three mutants designated as Omegas or potential Omegas, and the three appears to be targeted after that statement.

    In other words, with the lack of accuracy of this issue (regarding how people debate on it), better to use it carefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    The list on panel for "Omega Level Mutant" would be:

    Jean Grey & Iceman - X-Men Forever 3 and numerous times after.
    Franklin Richards - 198 Files and in one of the Fantastic Four arcs by Hickman.
    Elixir - New Mutants v2 & 198 Files
    Mr. M - X-Men 198 series and 198 Files
    Vulcan - Beyonds Omega Deadly Genesis and as Omega Level in RAFOTSE
    Stryfe - Uncanny X-Force v2 17
    Professor Xavier - As an Omega Level Mutant in the synopsis of Deadly Genesis
    Phoenix Emma Frost - As Omega Level Mutant in AvX Avengers Academy
    Legion - Omega Level Mutant in Second Coming and his ongoing.
    Mathew Malloy - Uncanny X-Men Bendis
    Kid Omega - He was cited as Omega Level Mutant recently in WATXM. I think before that was just Omega Level Telepath.
    Hope Summers - Marvel Handbook Phoenix Handbook IIRC as Omega Level Mutant.
    Well, there is some others. The whole list is in the references here: http://marvel.wikia.com/Mutant_Power...Classification (and the page of each characters listed in the categories).

    And again, in case they would not have seen it:
    Quote Originally Posted by ohsnapulon5000 View Post
    dude. read more comic books and handbooks...
    "I admit I haven't read a lot of things involving Mikhail Rasputin, Jubilee and Dazzler, but feel free to give the references where they're stated as [Omegas]."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sardorim View Post
    [Rachel]'s also listed as Omega in handbooks, wikis, official biography [...]. So no. There's no "might" about it. Rachel "is" an Omega-Level with Omega Power and is the #1 TP-user upon Earth and that's a fact.
    "Which Handbooks, official wiki and biography lists her as an Omega-Level Telepath ?"
    Last edited by Undoniel; 09-25-2014 at 04:38 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    What about the next page? He takes control of Iceman the threat he was talking about but read this page he's specfically talking about Iceman and the school in general. .
    Sorry it's pure theory on your part that he's talking about the school in general as opposed to the three people shown on the next panel. Bear in mind he actually says "some minor members with mental acuity" so he is not just talking about Rachel. He excludes them and focus on the Omega level mutates (Storm, Iceman and Rachel).
    Last edited by Daithi; 09-25-2014 at 06:13 AM.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    Sorry it's pure theory on your part that he's talking about the school in general as opposed to the three people shown on the next panel. Bear in mind he actually says "some minor members with mental acuity" so he is not just talking about Rachel. He excludes them and focus on the Omega level mutates (Storm, Iceman and Rachel).
    Of course she's talking about the school in general, why else would he include "some minor members with mental acuity" and in that scene she's scanning the school grounds for threats. And be honest here, she's listing out the characters at the scene. That is the context of the scene. You may infer that he's talking about Rachel and Storm aswell as Iceman but then there'd be no reason to list them out withWolverine earlier on. Storm and Rachel just so happen to be standing next to the "megamorph" Iceman at the time.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    You may infer that he's talking about Rachel and Storm aswell as Iceman but then there'd be no reason to list them out withWolverine earlier on. Storm and Rachel just so happen to be standing next to the "megamorph" Iceman at the time.
    She specially says omega level mutates, then a panel is shown with Storm, Rachel and Iceman then he focuses on Iceman. There would be no reason to show the other two or specially state omega level mutates. He would have just used the singular to specify Iceman.

    He never specified Rachel at all but "members" which the school has plenty off. Hell Hisako's power is psionic in nature isn't?

    The fact is he specifies members and you think it includes Rachel but there's no proof of that. Whereas the very next panel after omega level includes Rachel.
    Last edited by Daithi; 09-25-2014 at 06:45 AM.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    She specially says omega level mutates, then a panel is shown with Storm, Rachel and Iceman then he focuses on Iceman. There would be no reason to show the other two or specially state omega level mutates. He would have just used the singular to specify Iceman.

    He never specified Rachel at all but "members" which the school has plenty off. Hell Hisako's power is psionic in nature isn't?

    The fact is he specifies members and you think it includes Rachel but there's no proof of that. Whereas the very next panel after omega level includes Rachel.
    Actually, there is a reason for showing the other two, the entire point of that scene was to take control of the most powerful member and wipe the others out. Hence them needing to show him attacking his teamates. The reason why she used the word mutates because she's talking in generally about those mutants that are a threat.

    She didn't say psionic, Storms powers are also psionic. She said mental acuity, she was refering to the telepaths at the school, but more correctly (logically) the writer was referring to the telepaths that were shown. That is the most logical conclusion. But if you want to include Armor in that then logic again would mean she's refering to Armor and Rachel.

    No the very next panel shows her only going after Iceman. You are inferring that she went after Storm and Rachel too, but she only chose Iceman. And even says whos she's talking about...Iceman


    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 09-25-2014 at 07:03 AM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    She didn't say psionic, Storms powers are also psionic. She said mental acuity, she was refering to the telepaths at the school
    No she said "mental acuity" which could mean anybody with mental powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    No the very next panel shows her only going after Iceman. You are inferring that she went after Storm and Rachel too, but she only chose Iceman. And even says whos she's talking about...Iceman
    No please stop putting words into my mouth. She specifies omega level mutates (note the plural). She's already discounted Storm in the list with Logan. She never mentioned Rachel so the omega level mutates (again note the plural!) are Rachel and Iceman.

    The fact she goes after Iceman isn't relevant to what I'm saying.

  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    No she said "mental acuity" which could mean anybody with mental powers.
    Nope, think about what you are saying. Both Iceman and Storms powers are psionic. If she were talking about "mental acuity" as any kinetic user then she would not have to say "Elemental". She'd have covered Storm. She's specifically talking about those with mental powers e.g. telepaths; the ones at the scene.

    No please stop putting words into my mouth. She specifies omega level mutates (note the plural). She's already discounted Storm in the list with Logan. She never mentioned Rachel so the omega level mutates are Rachel and Iceman.
    So you've completely refuted your own argument with what you say about Storm. You've just argued that being drawn in that panel doesn't automatically mean she was talking about them as you just said she discounted Storm. Well, she also discounted Rachel given that she mentioned "mutants with mental acuity".
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 09-25-2014 at 07:20 AM.

  10. #85
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undoniel View Post
    This issue is very unclear, for any of them. Iceman could be the Elemental, and be used to take down the Omega Level Mutates (Rachel and Storm), or he is the OLM and used to take down everyone (including Rachel and Storm), or he is an OLM used to take down everyone (specifically the OLM Rachel and Storm). Or even : Nobody is an OLM here according to Supergiant (she use the plural maybe as a generality), and she takes down everyone without targeting anybody. The "minor members with mental acuity" could be other telepaths like Martha or who knows who (members, plural here again)

    The thing is, Iceman, Rachel and Storm are three mutants designated as Omegas or potential Omegas, and the three appears to be targeted after that statement.

    In other words, with the lack of accuracy of this issue (regarding how people debate on it), better to use it carefully.
    Totally agree with this. However, someone tweet Hickman/Breevort and it was confirmed Supergiant was not talking about Storm.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Of course she's talking about the school in general, why else would he include "some minor members with mental acuity" and in that scene she's scanning the school grounds for threats. And be honest here, she's listing out the characters at the scene. That is the context of the scene. You may infer that he's talking about Rachel and Storm aswell as Iceman but then there'd be no reason to list them out withWolverine earlier on. Storm and Rachel just so happen to be standing next to the "megamorph" Iceman at the time.
    I don't think it matters wheter Supergiant was talking about Storm or not, even though it was confirmed she was not, as Storm has been classified a couple of time as being omega-level potential.




  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Totally agree with this. However, someone tweet Hickman/Breevort and it was confirmed Supergiant was not talking about Storm.
    Perfect, which correlates with the context of that particular scene. Do you have the tweet of Hickmans/Brevoorts response? Was Supergiant only talking about Iceman?

    Found one anyway. No mention of Rachel.
    http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...-that-storm-is

    I mean I'm all for them being confirmed at a later stage, but that scene definitely did not state either.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 09-25-2014 at 07:43 AM.

  12. #87
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    At this point, I really don't want/need omega level storm.....it doesn't really do anything for me. Besides, she's already "up there" power wise". I wouldn't mind crazy feats though :3
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Perfect, which correlates with the context of that particular scene. Do you have the tweet of Hickmans/Brevoorts response? Was Supergiant only talking about Iceman?

    Found one anyway. No mention of Rachel.
    http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com...-that-storm-is

    I mean I'm all for them being confirmed at a later stage, but that scene definitely did not state either.
    Yea.. i can't click on the link because I'm at work, but I believe it was implied she was only referring to Iceman.

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    Yea.. i can't click on the link because I'm at work, but I believe it was implied she was only referring to Iceman.
    Which makes sense. Again, I was never saying those two shouldn't be confirmed as Omega Level Mutants somewhere down the line. I was just saying it's wrong to say that particular scene says they are because it clearly doesn't. It's like saying the grass is blue, and insisting it's blue when it's actually green. That's not how the scene went.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Personally I think Rachel is an Omega. She can create black holes and has nearly fully mastered her telekinetic abilities to sub-atomic levels. Her telepathic powers and skills have grown considerably and Xavier has marveled at how powerful and skilled she has become (partly through his training in space). And she has shown that should she die can can transcend her mortality and exist solely as a non-corporeal being (Mother Askani) that can bend time and space.

    But really, what does it necessarily matter? A few years down the line someone is going to use a new Greek term to describe and even more dangerous mutant than Mallory and these classifications will become moot. While nice to show the potential and unlimited power of characters, ultimately they will all be jobbed by the writers in order to show a different characters powers or abilities. Rachel will be blocked out by Quentin, but then she'll tear him down if provoked. Storm will be able control elements in space but then lose this ability. And others will continue to miraculously jump up (AOA Jean unlocking a new level for Psylocke's telepathy, Emma becoming an omega telepath, etc.) and the list will grow and grow.

    I'd rather see good writing and provocative stories than 'who is more powerful this week'.

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