Suppose DC was making an Ultimate Line. How would you handle this?

[GlennSimpson]

It was over for big business, but us little guys are taking longer to recover...But that is another thread on another board...
What are the sales after 2011? I am sure they spiked because it drew people in, but did it keep them?

September update:

DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Sep) 2014 - 19,651,345 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Sep) 2013 - 21,302,646 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units

We'll probably come out of 2014 at about 27 million.

Sales are dropping (until the next big thing - maybe whatever is coming in 2015), but still way above where they were before.

My point being that "loyal fans" either:

a) aren't really all that loyal or
b) aren't really all that plentiful.

[krazijoe]

September update:

DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Sep) 2014 - 19,651,345 estimated units.
DC Sales - Top 300 (Jan-Sep) 2013 - 21,302,646 estimated units.

And here are the figures for 1997-2012:
2013 - 28,184,085 estimated units
2012 - 29,602,125 estimated units
2011 - 26,522,201 estimated units
2010 - 23,528,000 estimated units
2009 - 24,126,336 estimated units
2008 - 25,760,378 estimated units
2007 - 29,597,217 estimated units
2006 - 30,243,575 estimated units

We'll probably come out of 2014 at about 27 million.

Sales are dropping (until the next big thing - maybe whatever is coming in 2015), but still way above where they were before.

My point being that "loyal fans" either:

a) aren't really all that loyal or
b) aren't really all that plentiful.

I am good with DC. I understand that you have to change and am willing to give it a go, plus they made Aquaman relevant again so I can't complain too much!

[WillieMorgan]

They're not though. Many titles are selling at about what they sold pre-boot and some are less. Batman has had a big increase to 116,000 but that's a replacement for the Blackest Night sales that no longer happen (#8 sold 135,000).

Wonder Woman in March 2010 sold 25,000 and in March this year it was 30,000 an increase for her but looking at Green Lantern- pre52 he sold 97,000 in March 2010 and March 2014 he sold 45,000. Teen Titans both sell a little over 25,000. Supergirl was doing 29,000 in 2010 and now is doing 22,000 JLA did 56,000 in 2010 and now does 54,000. The reboot increase is leveling off.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...0/2010-03.html
http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...4/2014-03.html

Oh, not again. Lies, damn lies & statistics.

Can we please nip this in the bud? These are incredibly skewed sales comparisons. When has Batman ever been a 'replacement' for anything??

We've already established on this thread that the New 52 has been a sales success. 'The reboot increase is levelling off'? Welcome to the world of super-hero comics.

[Ascended]

It was over for big business, but us little guys are taking longer to recover...But that is another thread on another board...
What are the sales after 2011? I am sure they spiked because it drew people in, but did it keep them?

As has been stated, the industry saw substantial increases for 2011 and 12, a small drop off last year, and this year looks to be a bit lower too (though time will tell).

What I want to see are trade and digital sales. I suspect that if we were to overlap those numbers against the monthly sales since 2011 we'd see trade and digital increasing quickly and reliably, making its way up towards being the primary sales source. Which then forces the question: How much of the reader atrophy we see now the result of people leaving versus people who switch to trade waiting and/or digital. I myself mix it all up. I still buy from my LSC but a solid 25% of my monthly comics are digital purchases now, and I trade wait a few others too.

As for the recession, man I hear ya. I broke through the glass ceiling into the "decently comfortable middle class" while we were coming through the recession and dude, it was not easy. Then my wife and I had a second child and that nearly broke the bank and sent us spiraling back down into poverty. BUT this is neither the time nor the place!

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Just so you know, the appropriate response to all this, and what everyone has been pointing out, is to say "Okay, I guess the numbers do prove that the reboot is a success, but I personally dont care for it and still consider the future to be questionable."

I wish I could marry this quote.

As to the question about DC's version of the Ultimates line, I'd go ahead and cancel it before it even began. Beat Marvel at their own game.

[kingkasara]

On the idea of an Ultimate DC line:

Ultimate Superman begins on the run from the government. Kal-El's rocket was detected upon arrival. The Kents managed to grab Clark and get out of there minutes before the government seized the rocket. Thus began Project: CADMUS, which spent the next several years trying to locate the alien who had landed. CADMUS began closing in on Clark just as he came of age in Smallville, and he fled to keep his family safe. CADMUS agents, including field agent (and later Director) Lex Luthor, have followed him around the globe. All the while, Clark has been helping people. Finally, after getting tired of running, Clark takes the fight to them, and breaks into their facility. He recovers his ship and costume, and learns a little about his origins. His breaking and entering caused a malfunction in an ongoing experiment with his ship's Phantom Drive, and a horrible monster* is released and begins making its way to nearby Metropolis. Donning his costume, Clark debuts as Superman and stops the monster in a great battle (in which he does his best to minimize civilian casualties but doesn't always succeed). His final blows kill it, which he sees as a painful necessity. The populace sees him as a hero, so CADMUS backs off on their hunt and instead keeps him under observation. Now able to lay down roots, Clark stays in Metropolis to help with rebuilding and meets journalist Lois Lane as he does so. He'll eventually begin writing as a freelance columnist for the Daily Planet, while Lex and CADMUS continue to plot against him. Clark continues to look for more clues to his origins.

Eventually, Clark's efforts and the efforts of CADMUS reveal the Kryptonians. Krypton did not in fact explode, but was heavily damaged. The Els are dead, but General Zod rules and plans to take over Earth before Krypton does finally collapse on itself.

*The monster is of course Doomsday. In an Ultimate-verse inversion, he is Clark's first foe rather than his last. A mindless monster only has so many roles, and Doomsday has had diminishing returns as a major threat.


Ultimate Batman is confined to Gotham and the streets. Bruce Wayne may never have left the city (since Clark's the one who's been wandering the world). He did spend his youth getting to know every nook and cranny, and training with folks all over the city. The emphasis is on Bruce's wits and talents, rather than gadgets and sci-fi gear. Most technology in this universe is still like Earth's. He deals with the fact that Gotham as a city is falling apart, not just from crime, but from lack of jobs and decaying infrastructure. A recurring theme is how Wayne Enterprises wants to move out of the city, but Bruce fights them on it. The Anarky movement finds support in the city, and various gangs run the streets, like the thugs of the Roman (who is not Italian anymore, the mafia is a less-relevant threat in this day and age). Batman fights these threats, while dealing with the GCPD which is equal parts corrupt and just horribly underfunded. Private corporations want to take over law-enforcement and the prison system, with Blackgate as a facility run by Lyle Bolton (Lock-Up), while Oswald Cobblepot's PENGUIN PMC/privatized police force start making inroads. The danger would be accelerated when Ra's Al-Ghul's terrorist network attacks.

I'd probably have Bruce make progress with Gotham, but it costs him a great deal. Wayne Enterprises would go bankrupt and Bruce would lose his fortune over time, trying to keep the city afloat. Whatever gadgets he did get would be harder to use, and he'd keep particular injuries between issues. It would really be all about Bruce relying on his wits and fists. Any sidekicks included would be the ones less prominent in most media: Spoiler, Cassandra Cain Batgirl, and Carrie Kelley Robin. If there was to be a male Robin/Nightwing, it would either be Jason Todd (who doesn't die this time), or even a composite Robin in the form of John Blake (but younger and just a kid who originally aspires to be a cop).


Ultimate Wonder Woman is an ambassador. Diana Prince is the Themyscieran envoy to the world. The Amazons have been known to the outside world since the Second World War when Hippolyta decided to join the fight. Similar to this short, the Amazons have some modern technology in addition to their Greek aesthetic. This would be the more political book, but mostly geopolitics. Wonder Woman would go to global hotspots like Bialya, Qurac, etc. and deal with menaces there. A figure claiming to be the Greek god Ares is masterminding global crises, and master thief/assassin Cheetah commits crimes around the globe.

I'd introduce the idea that the Amazons are insular, but not totally closed off. Whenever an Amazon comes of age, they're given the chance to travel the globe before coming home, and incorporating what they've learned. Hippolyta opened up Themysciera after her own travels. Donna Troy would be a young Amazon on her adventure who admires Wonder Woman.


I don't have ideas for the rest of the Ultimate Justice League yet, though I think Ultimate Aquaman might be like Ultimate Thor, in that he's a powerful guy with a popular following (he'd be a major environmentalist) but nobody believes his stories about coming from Atlantis.

[Blacksun]

There's a difference in business between wanting to put out the best product and wanting to beat your competition. The former is the goal, the latter is a happy bonus of that goal. No company should set out with the single purpose of beating their competitors; any company worth its salt sets out with the single purpose of selling their product to the most people possible, and if they do that job well enough the rest takes care of itself. Seriously, its not a hard distinction to make.

And I know a bunch of people who only buy DC because of the reboot, so who you know doesnt really amount to a pile of s**t. I also know people who couldnt get into DC before the 52, and they still dont care for it. I know former Marvel fans who jumped ship for DC and dont read any Marvel at all now. I also know a bunch of people who understand that the differences between DC and Marvel dont actually exist; they get that the companies are essentially interchangeable, and they only read Image and other independent publishers. And they dont care or argue about stupid crap like this.

most companies want to take the first place to lead and not ebing led by another company. DC for sure tried it with a reboot, but it ended up being short term.

for every people that buy because of reboot, I see many that dropped and many that stopped because of it. so WE really don't know how sustentable the reboot is or it will be in the future.

[GlennSimpson]

most companies want to take the first place to lead and not ebing led by another company. DC for sure tried it with a reboot, but it ended up being short term.

for every people that buy because of reboot, I see many that dropped and many that stopped because of it. so WE really don't know how sustentable the reboot is or it will be in the future.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what happens in the future. No marketing initiative is going to guarantee higher sales indefinitely. At some point the situation is going to be that the relaunch did what it needed to do, even if the effect was only for 4-5 years.

[Ascended]

most companies want to take the first place to lead and not ebing led by another company. DC for sure tried it with a reboot, but it ended up being short term.

for every people that buy because of reboot, I see many that dropped and many that stopped because of it. so WE really don't know how sustentable the reboot is or it will be in the future.

I've explained the difference between business with the mindset of beating everyone else and then business with the mindset of making as much profit as possible. There is a difference (and when done right a lovely overlap). It's been explained. Im done with this aspect of the conversation.

Of course we dont know how the reboot will perform in the future. That is completely and utterly immaterial to the point at hand.

[Buried Alien]

Frankly, it doesn't matter what happens in the future. No marketing initiative is going to guarantee higher sales indefinitely. At some point the situation is going to be that the relaunch did what it needed to do, even if the effect was only for 4-5 years.

I would say that the original momentum that DC gained from COIE in 1986 was spent by 1990, and new momentum was created by such events as killing Robin, introducing a new Robin, killing/reviving Superman, breaking Batman's back, etc.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Pharozonk]

I would say that the original momentum that DC gained from COIE in 1986 was spent by 1990, and new momentum was created by such events as killing Robin, introducing a new Robin, killing/reviving Superman, breaking Batman's back, etc.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I think it got a nice injection of life in the late 90's with stuff like Young Justice and Morrison's JLA, that brought back a sense of optimism and legacy that DC was sorely lacking for a while. It felt like there was hope for the future again in the DCU and then Infinite Crisis crushed that momentum.

[Dr. Jan Itor]

most companies want to take the first place to lead and not ebing led by another company.

Depends on the industry. Fast food, everyone's given up to McDonalds, but they're still trying to maximize their profits. Retail, no one's going to top Walmart anytime soon, but locking in solid numbers is goal #1. Comics are just about the same. Marvel is entrenched as #1 and the hope is to chip away at that while increasing sales.

[Ascended]

I would say that the original momentum that DC gained from COIE in 1986 was spent by 1990, and new momentum was created by such events as killing Robin, introducing a new Robin, killing/reviving Superman, breaking Batman's back, etc.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'd say that sounds about right. The early 90's had a real "house cleaning" feel to it as well; DC dumped a lot of old characters and concepts and reinvented them. Some of them worked out really well, like Tim Drake, Impulse, Kyle Rayner, Starman, and then there were the rest. 90's era Spawn-ripoff Manhunter, Az-Bats, Fate....basically anyone that dove headfirst into the stereotype 90's vibe.

I sort of expect DC to do the same thing now. There have been certain re-brandings over the last few years that have done wonders. Lemire's Green Arrow. The new Batgirl. Lemire's Animal Man. If the rumors coming out of Bleeding Cool are right we might see a lot of new takes, if not new faces, in the next couple years. Which would make sense, as the momentum the 52 built up in sales is leveling out.

[WillieMorgan]

most companies want to take the first place to lead and not ebing led by another company. DC for sure tried it with a reboot, but it ended up being short term.

for every people that buy because of reboot, I see many that dropped and many that stopped because of it. so WE really don't know how sustentable the reboot is or it will be in the future.

Oh, you're like a dog with a bone on this aren't you.

For the last time - you keep trying to make the same point but you're reasoning isn't strong enough.