Suppose DC was making an Ultimate Line. How would you handle this?

[GlennSimpson]

Yeah, good luck with that mate.



To be honest I don't think they'd like that either.

That was my point - they THINK they would like it, but not really.

[WillieMorgan]

That was my point - they THINK they would like it, but not really.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Paper Monkey]

well 2012 sales is about the same that in 2007. So the sales aren't higher than pre new 52.

I think that with new 52 DC loas a chance to do their own ultimate universe.

It's funny. With that same argument you can say with comparisons to the 2012 and 2007 sales that Marvel has became worse with the launch of Marvel Now. But overall it's a stupid argument. People need to factor in those little things like how the economy was doing during the time.

I am however impressed by how much readership (well sales) have jumped up for DC compared to Marvel from 2010 to 2013. I thought it would be a lot closer.

[Blacksun]

Wow, so determined to be right. Stuff like this is why statistics no longer hold any truth, people will twist the numbers to say whatever idiot thing pops into their head. Whether you personally like it or not, DC's reboot stopped a sales drop that had lasted for several years, and the sales are still holding steady (reader attrition taken into account) and are still millions (MILLIONS) above what they were in the years leading up to the 52.

Whats more, if you compare Marvel's numbers to DC's on a year-by-year basis, you'll notice that lately, those numbers have been a lot closer, whereas in the years leading up to the reboot, the divide was much wider. Going back ten years, we see a difference between the companies in the range of ten million units. Now you look at last year (the more recent year we have data for) and DC is only three million down.

Just so you know, the appropriate response to all this, and what everyone has been pointing out, is to say "Okay, I guess the numbers do prove that the reboot is a success, but I personally dont care for it and still consider the future to be questionable."

Well Dc rebooted all their line just to get closer to marvel...this is far away from success for me. if the objective was get closer to marvel they definately got it done, so yeah it was successful.
I said before that DC is doing better, but at least not what I expect or what is expected from a reboot. and sales keep droping...

Multiversity is a good plataform for a "ultimate" universe. there is many cool earths worth to explore

[GlennSimpson]

Well Dc rebooted all their line just to get closer to marvel...this is far away from success for me. if the objective was get closer to marvel they definately got it done, so yeah it was successful.
I said before that DC is doing better, but at least not what I expect or what is expected from a reboot. and sales keep droping...

Multiversity is a good plataform for a "ultimate" universe. there is many cool earths worth to explore

For me, I recognize that the only entity who can truly say if it was successful is DC - they know what their goals were and whether they achieved them. All we can do from the outside is guess.

Which is fine as long as people don't assume it WASN'T a success. You won't see me starting posts with "Well, since the new52 is such a success, this is what I think they should do next..." I only bring it up when others make definitive statements that it wasn't.

[Sirzechs]

Well Dc rebooted all their line just to get closer to marvel...this is far away from success for me. if the objective was get closer to marvel they definately got it done, so yeah it was successful.
I said before that DC is doing better, but at least not what I expect or what is expected from a reboot. and sales keep droping...

Multiversity is a good plataform for a "ultimate" universe. there is many cool earths worth to explore

When did DC reboot their Universe to get closer to Marvel? you do realize Marvel Now and the constant relaunch disease is a off shoot of the New52 sales right?

[Ascended]

When did DC reboot their Universe to get closer to Marvel? you do realize Marvel Now and the constant relaunch disease is a off shoot of the New52 sales right?

I like to think that this mindset will eventually drive the industry to publishing "seasons" rather than continuous and never ending series, or relaunching the same series over and over again. Action Comics: Season 1 has a nice ring to it. It would make back issues easier to find; rather than trying to find "issue #56 of volume 7, you'd just be looking for Season 1, Part 2. It'd make creative teams easier to schedule and work with. You sign on for a season, tell your story, and move on, rather than the sloppy mess we have right now where the same series will go through multiple creative teams, sometimes in as little as three issues. Ah, but this is not the point of the thread, so I digest....

Well Dc rebooted all their line just to get closer to marvel...this is far away from success for me. if the objective was get closer to marvel they definately got it done, so yeah it was successful.
I said before that DC is doing better, but at least not what I expect or what is expected from a reboot. and sales keep droping...

As GlennSimpson said, we're not at DC and cant know the mindset of their management or the events that result in the product we see on the shelves. But I will say that if DC rebooted just to get closer to Marvel, someone needs to go back to business school. I'd bet good money DC did what it did for the benefit of DC and with the aim of making more money. Marvel is not the target, Marvel is not the goal. Surpassing Marvel would just be a nice bonus to the real effort of putting more money in everyone's pockets and a sign that they've retaken the market. This "DC vs Marvel" war? It only really exists in fanboy's heads (and Joe Quesada's). For everyone else they're just two companies that share a similar product and cater to the same demographic. They're business rivals, but its about making the sale to the consumer, not beating your opponent. You do the job right, that will take care of itself.

As for the sales, reader attrition is merely a reality for the industry. Sales dropped month to month before the reboot, they will continue to do so for the 52 and whatever comes afterwards. And every company struggles with this.

[scusemeprincess]

new52 IS ultimate DC
the end

[Master X]

@bold you mean the same people that stop buying before the Reboot? you're the one that's not looking at it objectively, the sales was dying before the reboot if you can't admit that then there's no point in arguing about it, New52 didn't turn away core readers they wer already going out the door.
If the sales were higher then you could say it fail but the fact that it wasn't and the New52 still hasn't drop to lower than that number means it isn't a failure.

Well, I know for certain it turned away at least 2 core readers, and both were sticking with DC for the forseable future, with no intention of EVER quitting. They also both got a vaste swathe of titles, 29 main DCU titles in January 2011, god only knows how many in those last few months. If anything my pull list was INCREASING every month, then the NU52 happened...

[krazijoe]

I see Billy Batson dying and some new kid taking on the mantle.

[WillieMorgan]

Well, I know for certain it turned away at least 2 core readers, and both were sticking with DC for the forseable future, with no intention of EVER quitting. They also both got a vaste swathe of titles, 29 main DCU titles in January 2011, god only knows how many in those last few months. If anything my pull list was INCREASING every month, then the NU52 happened...

Yeah, but that's just the buying habits of 2 readers. If thousands of other people were also picking up 29 titles a month then there'd have been no immediate push for a reboot. But they weren't, at least not in sufficient numbers. DC just can't win with some people. They make a concerted effort to increase market share and update their universe and still get grief. DC aren't gonna base their marketing and sales strategy on your buying habits alone (as impressive as 29 titles is), they have to look at the bigger picture.

There have been posters on here in the past that were introduced to comics during the 90's and are still huge fans of the likes of Kyle Rayner and Cassandra Cain. As far as these readers are concerned those are the de-facto versions of Green Lantern and Batgirl, they grew up with them and won't acknowledge the DCU again until those characters are returned to centre stage. I like Kyle Rayner too but the primary GL of the DCU will always be Hal Jordan. These people are more than entitled to their preferences but they need to get it into their heads that DC's creative policy isn't simply directed towards them and them alone. It's like everybody has their own favourites and expects DC to cater to them and no-one else. These are just one example of the types of reader that DC will never be able to win with, they'll probably never be satisfied.

Like Ascended says above, this isn't a 'war' either. That notion only exists in fanboy daydreams (and Quesada's who should know better). I used to have a Nintendo 64. I didn't give a shit whether the Playstation outsold it or not. As long as it was profitable for Nintendo and I got to play some great games (and God I did do) I didn't give the slightest toss which console won the 'war'.

[Ascended]

Well, I know for certain it turned away at least 2 core readers,

Without doubt the reboot turned away far more than that.

But I also know several people who got into comics for the first time because of the 52, and a few people who came back to the hobby after a long hiatus. I myself was only reading a couple DC books by the time the 52 rolled around, and had planned on using the reboot as a chance to leave the hobby. But damned if DC didnt start putting out more books I enjoyed, and now my pull list is larger than it has been for years.

Willie has the right of it. Some fans wont be happy no matter what. Some fans wont be happy unless everything is exactly as it was when they first discovered the DCU (and even then they likely wont be satisfied) and some fans are so continuity-or-die in their mindset they still are not over the original Crisis. But these people are not who DC is targeting, nor are they who DC *should* target. The "old loyal" fanbase clearly was not enough anyway. If we had been, the 52 would never have happened. If nothing had been wrong with DC's product, if people had been buying in adequate numbers, we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place.

[Blacksun]

When did DC reboot their Universe to get closer to Marvel? you do realize Marvel Now and the constant relaunch disease is a off shoot of the New52 sales right?

or New 52 just lost the initial heat. I think new 52 lost the initial heat, marvel did the now iniciative, so DC lost some sales

As GlennSimpson said, we're not at DC and cant know the mindset of their management or the events that result in the product we see on the shelves. But I will say that if DC rebooted just to get closer to Marvel, someone needs to go back to business school. I'd bet good money DC did what it did for the benefit of DC and with the aim of making more money. Marvel is not the target, Marvel is not the goal. Surpassing Marvel would just be a nice bonus to the real effort of putting more money in everyone's pockets and a sign that they've retaken the market. This "DC vs Marvel" war? It only really exists in fanboy's heads (and Joe Quesada's). For everyone else they're just two companies that share a similar product and cater to the same demographic. They're business rivals, but its about making the sale to the consumer, not beating your opponent. You do the job right, that will take care of itself.

As for the sales, reader attrition is merely a reality for the industry. Sales dropped month to month before the reboot, they will continue to do so for the 52 and whatever comes afterwards. And every company struggles with this.

from what I learn on college, competition is important and you have to be ahead of it to survive. I don't know what was the objective, but numbers keep dropping even with september gimmicks, weeklies... Short term they got their goal, and what about the long term? they keep losing sales even to indies...


I know bunch of people ho want to buy DC comics, but the company decision keep them away.

[Ascended]

Actually, by the time Marvel got the NOW! initiative going the 52 had been around for what, six or seven months? While we were seeing some sales decline, most books were losing readers at a slower average than the industry norms and several books were still holding steady. If memory serves Wonder Woman was actually gaining some readers around this time (give or take a few months). Marvel's NOW! certainly impacted DC's inertia, but bear in mind that at the time DC was also holding down the market and coming out ahead most months. Marvel pulled an equally large Stunt to get some media attention and it worked.

And sales are still better for both companies (and Image and IDW, ect) than they were beforehand. So everyone wins. Once more, I fail to see where the problem is. Marvel did something to compete with DC's reboot, they marketed it well, and everyone is still making more money. Where's the downside here? Why does one company *have* to *lose* to the other? Isnt it more the fact that both are doing very well right now? Isnt that something that any fan of comics should be glad of?

[Sirzechs]

Think it was almost a year New52 debut in Sept 2011,and Marvel Now came in Late 2012