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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7696
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    If Martin goes that road, which personnaly i doubt but whatever, it's going to be real interesting to read the chapters written from Danny's point of view.

  2. #7697
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    I wouldn’t even say it was poorly written. It was just paced poorly, like everything else. Between episode 4 and 5 we had Dany not eating for days, isolating herself, learning someone was conspiring against her, losing faith in Tyrion. Even Jamie getting captured

    That’s where a legit episode exploring that would have been amazing. Tyrion trying to talk Dany down and failing. Dany discovering letters about Jon Snow going out. Her mourning Missandei and Jorah. Battle plans explaining Cersei bringing in citizens to “protect” them from Dany. Dany feeling rejected. Knowing the North and Sansa didn’t prefer her. Mourning her dragon. Feeling rejected by the people with Cersei.

    That was all clearly there, but knowing it and seeing it are different things.
    Jacob Anderson talked about it on some morning show I say. His opinion (and arguably he's biased since he will of course give props to his co-stars) is that the Dany moment was completely earned because Emilia was able to tell the story with her performance. Beyond being told that Dany was going through all of this, she in his opinion was able to tell the story just by the expression on her face both after the meeting with Tyrion and when the bells rang. That told the story they didn't necessarily have as much room to tell otherwise.

  3. #7698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    If Martin goes that road, which personnaly i doubt but whatever, it's going to be real interesting to read the chapters written from Danny's point of view.
    ADWD so far makes it pretty easy for me to believe

  4. #7699
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Absolutely the worst shield ever. Cersi didn't understand what sort of person she was dealing with... if she did, she would have realized she was wasting her time. To Cersi it was a shield, but to Dany it was just target practice.

    If suppose if you're Cersi in the LEAST it's a PR hit against Dany. Cersi's actions obviously don't save her, but it helped take Dany down in a somewhat indirect manner by exposing to everyone who Dany was. Doubt Cersi herself would feel any better about that small win, but it's something.
    Well worst shield ever because of the writing not the characters. You can't be a shield if you are not placed in a position to put the enemy in a moral dilemma. There is no human being in history that would deploy human shields in the manner Cersei did which is why it is a failire in the narrative.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  5. #7700
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    If Martin goes that road, which personnaly i doubt but whatever, it's going to be real interesting to read the chapters written from Danny's point of view.
    Martin has already admitted that he's told the showruuners broad strokes of what he intends to write. Just not the details (probably because Martin himself doesn't know the details yet).

    I have trouble imaging Dany not being in that conversation.

  6. #7701
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    My point was in response to you saying this.



    She was not going to take Cersi from atop a dragon without harming a LOT of people.
    The them on this instance were the civilians no where near the Red Keep. She torched inncoent people that were not close to where Cersei was and it appears the tower was largely empty. So any casualties would have been light compared to her just wantonly BBQing people.

    Hence my point being that for them to be shields Cersei would have had to place them in the Red Keep which she did not.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  7. #7702
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Well worst shield ever because of the writing not the characters. You can't be a shield if you are not placed in a position to put the enemy in a moral dilemma. There is no human being in history that would deploy human shields in the manner Cersei did which is why it is a failire in the narrative.
    If you're Cersi, why not? She's potentially outgunned and likely can't beat Danys forces in a straight fight. If filling the streets with canon fodder even slows her down a little, it's worth it if you ignore the moral implications of it (which Cersi obviusly is willing to do). If you're Cersi, you do whatever you can against a superior force.

    Again, in the LEAST it potentially plants the seeds of a PR loss for Dany. If the casualties stack high enough, she'll have greater trouble gaining support. And Cersi was right in the sense... problem being by this point Dany simply didn't give a dam.

  8. #7703
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Martin has already admitted that he's told the showruuners broad strokes of what he intends to write. Just not the details (probably because Martin himself doesn't know the details yet).

    I have trouble imaging Dany not being in that conversation.
    The last book release is quite far from now and i don't think that Martin wants to release a book people already know how it ends. I don't know, sounds weird to me. That kinda kills a lot of my interest in the two last books personnaly.

    But well, time will tell as they say. Time always ends up telling. ^^

  9. #7704
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    The them on this instance were the civilians no where near the Red Keep. She torched inncoent people that were not close to where Cersei was and it appears the tower was largely empty. So any casualties would have been light compared to her just wantonly BBQing people.

    Hence my point being that for them to be shields Cersei would have had to place them in the Red Keep which she did not.
    There were plenty of civilians outside the Red Keep, who obviously were endangered when the building began to collapse. Again, Dragons are not necessarily precise weapons. People didn't need to be in the castle to die from the attack, though almost certainly there had to be some people in the castle who could qualify as innocent civilians.

    But certainly the casualties were far higher than those in and around the castle. Again, that's where Cersi miscalculated. She didn't understand Dany well enough to know that placing the people under Cersi's protection essentially meant that Dany no longer cared about saving them.

  10. #7705
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If you're Cersi, why not? She's potentially outgunned and likely can't beat Danys forces in a straight fight. If filling the streets with canon fodder even slows her down a little, it's worth it if you ignore the moral implications of it (which Cersi obviusly is willing to do). If you're Cersi, you do whatever you can against a superior force.

    Again, in the LEAST it potentially plants the seeds of a PR loss for Dany. If the casualties stack high enough, she'll have greater trouble gaining support. And Cersi was right in the sense... problem being by this point Dany simply didn't give a dam.
    No you missing the point. I have no problem with her using them as it is in character for her. I am saying as the other poster mentioned they deployed then in a way that us unbelievable.

    You place human shields among you. On the Walls, in the tower where you reside. You dont just bring them in the city and have them separated from your army as then it is easy for the enemy to maneuver.

    As it stands, Dany won the war without a single civilian casualty which means the human shields were useless. So the question is why were they useless and it is because the writers sucked. Anyone with any sort of tactical awareness would not deploy human shields as Cersei did and she has advisors smart enough to know how to deploy them. So the failure to do so properly is on the writers.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  11. #7706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    The last book release is quite far from now and i don't think that Martin wants to release a book people already know how it ends. I don't know, sounds weird to me. That kinda kills a lot of my interest in the two last books personnaly.

    But well, time will tell as they say. Time always ends up telling. ^^
    The show doesn't kill the interest in the books... if anything I'll wager the readership of the book multiplied 10 fold because of the show. The show gurantees the books will have interest. The only thing which will hurt that is his ability to actually finish writing them.

    In his words, the "devil is in the detail." People will still get a lot of stuff on characters that don't even exist or already died in the shows.

  12. #7707
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    No you missing the point. I have no problem with her using them as it is in character for her. I am saying as the other poster mentioned they deployed then in a way that us unbelievable.

    You place human shields among you. On the Walls, in the tower where you reside. You dont just bring them in the city and have them separated from your army as then it is easy for the enemy to maneuver.

    As it stands, Dany won the war without a single civilian casualty which means the human shields were useless. So the question is why were they useless and it is because the writers sucked. Anyone with any sort of tactical awareness would not deploy human shields as Cersei did and she has advisors smart enough to know how to deploy them. So the failure to do so properly is on the writers.
    You don't place civilians on the wall, because the civilians aren't going to just stand there on the wall for the heck of it. I'm sure they would be happy to be in the castle, but that potentially creates a seperate threat to Cersi herself especially as her forces won't be as able to protect her because of the conflict outside.

    Just because these people are being used as human shields doesn't mean she wants to make it obvious to them that they are. If that happens, the people probably WILL rise against her. The whole image she is trying to create is that she's protecting them. Standing on the wall doesn't accomplish that. Standing IN the castle does, but it comes at a risk to Cersi herself. Having them just outside the castle creates a scenario where Dany endangers them with less additional danger to herself.

    And yes, the human shields were useless. No one disputes that. Human shields don't work against a woman that views them as target practice. Doesn't matter what Cersi would have done with them. She might as well have drawn red circles on their chests for all the good it did her.

  13. #7708
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    There were plenty of civilians outside the Red Keep, who obviously were endangered when the building began to collapse. Again, Dragons are not necessarily precise weapons. People didn't need to be in the castle to die from the attack, though almost certainly there had to be some people in the castle who could qualify as innocent civilians.

    But certainly the casualties were far higher than those in and around the castle. Again, that's where Cersi miscalculated. She didn't understand Dany well enough to know that placing the people under Cersi's protection essentially meant that Dany no longer cared about saving them.
    Yeah Cersei didnt miscalculate. The writers wrote it stupidly.

    There is no logical reason for anyone to think Dany would burn children nowhere near the keep as those people had already surrendered. There is actually no value in killing them as they dont effect the outcome at all.

    At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is literally one of the dumbest things I have ever encountered in storytelling history and we arent going to change each others minds. The war was won. Nothing about Dany torching people after she won makes sense.

    I suspect if Martin finishes his book, he will come up with a better way to justify Dany going mad.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 10:10 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  14. #7709
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    I suspect if Martin finishes his book, he will come up with a better way to justify Dany going mad
    Let's hope so. I don't see how he could do worst though so odds are good.

  15. #7710
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    Martin isn't perfect, but he has a MUCH better track record then D&D. So even if we get the same broad strokes story in the books, I fully believe that it will be better written, more logical, more built-up to, etc than the show did it.

    I mean these are the same guys who used the infamous "Dany just kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron's forces" excuse to justify a stupid writing thing that they did (and it doesn't even make sense within that same episode). And they used those type of excuses A LOT this season.

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