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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7576
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    If this ending even remotely resembles GRRM's endgame in the books, then I think I finally understand why his writing has come to such a bloody halt. He simply made the characters way too young. The Stark children, Jon, Dany...I think realistically, they are/will still be too young, physically, emotionally, mentally for the roles they assume by the story's end. At best, Bran is like 10 years old by the end of Book 5.

    I think the real problem with the books is that GRRM can't age up the kids despite really needing to, the dragons need time to grow, and he can't find a subtle resolution to the Meereen story that doesn't show his Mad Queen Dany card earlier than he'd like.
    Ya think? The whole reason Feast and Dance took as long was because he wanted to add a 5 year time gap and couldn't figure it out and changed his mind. I think some stuff will work better. Dany talking about making a better world while slaughtering people as a girl not much older than Joffrey is going to come a bit creepier than an adult Cleopatra type figure.

  2. #7577
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    HBO has to be upset that D&D forced them to end the series early. The plot points that were rushed through in season 7 and 8 could have been fully explored in many more seasons. Just the Mad Queen turn itself could have taken place over a full season. And GOT would have delivered HBO big ratings in more years.

    I wonder why they couldn't get another show runner to take over from D&D.

  3. #7578
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Everybody has a right to be disappointed if that's how they feel. But this is a mischaracterization of what happened with Dany. "They," that is the writers, didn't change anything about Dany or her behavior. They simply recontextualized it to make everyone realize that this is what she has been ALL ALONG.

    We can debate how effective their attempt was. But the idea is for the audience to be in the same position as Jon. We love Dany. We've seen her triumph over evil men, and resist terrible fates and fight for what was hers. And we cheered, even as she engaged in savage, sometimes indiscriminate violence against her enemies. Because she could and she believed it was right to do so.

    When she was targeting the evil we wrote it off. Justified it. But it was still brutality. And brutality is NEVER the answer to a better world. But now we see that she is not limited to the evil. She will punish the innocent as well, simply for not fighting hard enough to reject evil.

    We're supposed to feel conflicted. Unsure if it is our eyes or our hearts that are deceiving us. What Jon does, probably save the world from tyranny, isn't meant to feel clean or righteous. Even if it almost certainly is.

    I feel like the writers didn't quite stick the landing. But they got closer than I would have expected given the time constraint of six episodes. Rushed? Yes, absolutely. Not what we expected? Almost certainly. But thematically and visually strong, if narratively weaker.

    I would also posit that there is NO ending that could have satisfied most viewers. The hype was too much, the buildup too long. Almost anything was going to feel like an anticlimax, and imaginations, and thus expectations fair or foul, had been working overtime for years. This was never going to end in a way that satisfied any of that, I feel.
    That's exactly what they did. Honestly people should probably rewatch the earlier seasons with where she ends up in mind, because it's there. It's exactly as Tyrion said, she was cruel sadistic megalomaniac, we just didn't question it because we got small snippets of the people on the receiving end being "bad". Then every once in a while we would get told how it wasn't as simple as it initially seemed. Especially the slavemasters and nobility who weren't all bad people. She literally took over and started wars that trashed cities for the sake of getting an army and then as soon as that was done she fucked off and left those cities in the care of sell swords.

    See it was different when the thing she did to the slave masters she did to Sam's father and brother and we got to see an emotional reaction. It was different when we were worried about Jamie on that field of fire scene.

    It was cool for her to be self righteous to a bunch of no names in Slavers Bay. But when she was demanding Jon Snow bend the knee, it came off as a bit tyrannical.

    The question you have to ask yourself with Dany is this: how many times in history has someone went around the world from city to city and state to state and brutally killed the power structure their in the name of being a liberator who had a vision of a brand new world in their image, leaving carnage in their wake, that we DIDN'T ultimately view as some sort of tyrant? All the shit you saw in Essos? Yeah the point of that was that the whole time she was planning to do the same in the Seven Kingdoms. And the less people and checks she had on her the further she went.

    You can't compare her to Walter White. Walter White wasn't saying in season one that his goal was to do half of what he ended up doing. He got caught up in it and lost himself. Dany was a Targaryen. She's been saying since the beginning that this was her destiny. She's been threatening fire and blood. She's been going around horrifically destroying power structure in whole cities and leaving causalities. She had to be checked by Jorah, Barristan, and finally Tyrion from giving in to her worst impulses. When she lost them or lost faith in them, her impulses remained.

  4. #7579
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Again, this is a woman who freaked out when Drogon accidentally killed ONE child. Saying she just went power mad because she's flying in the air or something is pretty lazy writing.

    ......

    I don't ask this to be easy for Jon. It should be hard and he shouldn't want to do it, but he shouldn't need to be convinced that it needs to be done and continue saying "she's the queen" when she's become Darth Dany.
    One child, brought to her by a grieving father who recognized her as Queen and asked her for justice.

    No comparison to people she has labelled enemies. She sure as hell wasn't thinking of the families of all the Mereenese she crucified without trial or evidence of complicity in the crime she was theoretically punishing.

    Also, Drogon did that on his free time. Dany had no intent in that action. Vast, vast difference there.

    And on the Jon point, it's a woman he loves and the Queen to whom he has sworn allegiance. He has to break a vow he takes seriously and murder someone he cares for. Or might you justify her actions because you love them? Of course she had a reason. Of course she'll end up being right. Of course there's a purpose behind the intentional mass murder of a city of innocents.

    Extreme example: if tomorrow it turned out your mom was a serial killer, would it take you a minute to process that? Would you automatically and instantly believe it? Or would seeing it in that light blow your mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    One child, brought to her by a grieving father who recognized her as Queen and asked her for justice.

    No comparison to people she has labelled enemies. She sure as hell wasn't thinking of the families of all the Mereenese she crucified without trial or evidence of complicity in the crime she was theoretically punishing.

    Also, Drogon did that on his free time. Dany had no intent in that action. Vast, vast difference there.

    And on the Jon point, it's a woman he loves and the Queen to whom he has sworn allegiance. He has to break a vow he takes seriously and murder someone he cares for. Or might you justify her actions because you love them? Of course she had a reason. Of course she'll end up being right. Of course there's a purpose behind the intentional mass murder of a city of innocents.

    Extreme example: if tomorrow it turned out your mom was a serial killer, would it take you a minute to process that? Would you automatically and instantly believe it? Or would seeing it in that light blow your mind?
    You completely describe the Hamlet dilemma which is really fitting for Jon!

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Sansa: Good job Bran. But the North shall remain independent with me as Queen.

    Yara: Wait, you can do that?

    Nameless Dornish Prince: Alright!
    lol, a part of me wanted Bran to say no with an emotionless stare. But you know Sansa would have gone to war over that.
    Last edited by Flashback; 05-20-2019 at 06:08 PM.

  7. #7582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    HBO has to be upset that D&D forced them to end the series early. The plot points that were rushed through in season 7 and 8 could have been fully explored in many more seasons. Just the Mad Queen turn itself could have taken place over a full season. And GOT would have delivered HBO big ratings in more years.

    I wonder why they couldn't get another show runner to take over from D&D.
    Maybe the actors wanted to move on too?

  8. #7583
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    HBO has to be upset that D&D forced them to end the series early. The plot points that were rushed through in season 7 and 8 could have been fully explored in many more seasons. Just the Mad Queen turn itself could have taken place over a full season. And GOT would have delivered HBO big ratings in more years.

    I wonder why they couldn't get another show runner to take over from D&D.
    They didn't take one season to do the 'Mad Queen turn' as you call it. They took SEVEN. If you're not cool with it now, I daresay a few more episodes were not going to sell you on it.

    The moment Mad Queen Dany is born? The first season finale. She steps into the fire of Drogo's pyre with three fossils and emerges unharmed and with three baby dragons. How do the Dothraki present respond? Not just embracing her as a queen, they prostrate themselves and worship her like a god.

    Her impressive collection of titles we've watched her amass? Deanarys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons. Her first three are the miracles she has taken part in! She hasn't gone mad in the final season, we are all just too taken with her and her underdog story to see it before now.

  9. #7584
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    This whole season has been an utter disaster. They wasted 2 episodes to start where the characters largely did nothing, they had the Dothraki stupidly charge in the dark against an enemy of unknown number, they had main characters be swarmed by undead only to be saved by ridiculous plot armor, and they disposed of the Night King and his White Walkers without them even clashing swords with anyone. Then magically somehow the Dothraki and Unsullied who were decimated during the fight suddenly respawn because Dany's armies apparently have a +50% respawn buff after victory.

    To follow up, they had Euron magically hit a moving target in the air 3 times in quick succession because he apparently had a +100 precision buff that apparently only worked on one dragon because about 1,000 scorpion shots later, he nor his men could get a shot on Drogon for the remainder of the show. Then instead of Dany simply flying behind the ships and burning them to shreds, she inexplicably charges straight ahead and then bails on her people because Euron apparently had hit her with a -75% tactical awareness buff. Then magically instead of killing all the Unsullied that had to abandon ship, they someone only capture Missandei leaving an entire army of Unsullied to swim ashore and live to fight another day because the Unsullied had a +65 amphibious buff.

    If that wasn't bad enough in a single episode, Dany apparently gets a +200 evasion buff as she avoids a shit ton of scorpion shots to take out Euron's fleet and to go with a +150 sneakiness buff as she somehow magically appears behind the Golden company despite being unable to fly behind the ships just an episode ago. As for the Golden Company, they apparently had a +100 cool armor rating but a -1,000 fighting effectiveness rating as they are completely and utterly useless. Of course, why you would put your army outside the gates when you have a huge city with walls is beyond me but it wouldn't have mattered I guess because somehow Drogon has a +2000 concussive force buff as his fire can shatter castle walls somehow.

    In any event, the war is won and instead of just flying up to the Red Keep and killing Cersei ie the person who killed Missandei, Dany decides to waste time and give Cersei a chance to escape by murdering innocent civilians for no good reason at all. Of course, due to it being a TV show, instead of Cersei promptly using this opportunity to escape, she decides to hang out in the Red Keep for an inordinate amount of time as Cersei is burning children to death for no good reason but because of Drogon's +2000 concussive force buff and Jamie and Cersei -3000 common sense buff, the walls collapse on them and they die.

    So the war that was already won is now for sure won because there are no child left alive that would grow up hating Dany for killing the evil Cersei since Dany did a very effective job of burning children to ash for no good reason. Then despite Dany burning children to literal ash, she is given -10,000 awareness buff as she is oblivious to the fact that Jon ie goody two shoes may be upset and try to kill her. With Dany dead, the Unsullied don't actually kill Jon but instead merely hold him prisoner so that people that hated her can decide what to do with Jon.

    To cap off the utter lunacy of the show, Tyrion ie a dude that was arrested for treason and has made one stupid decision after another all season is asked to nominate a King. Like WTF? Then these lords who been fighting for ages decide to make crippled Bran King and Bran pretty much reveals he knew all along Dany was going to go apeshit and murder innocent women and children but he was cool with that because it was what he came all this way for. Sansa then tells her bro, that the North will be independent and someone no one challenges her or thinks that maybe we should be independent too. This is especially confusing because Yarra was promised by Dany that the Iron Islands would be Independent but somehow she is fine with being ruled by a crippled King basically is responsible for her bro Theon dying just to by Arya enough time to Usain Bolt past all the White Walkers to kill the NK.

    Ok so at this point you would think the Dothraki and Unsullied would go ape shit and during the time skip with Jon imprisoned Daario would show up with his second sons demanded a trial by combat or something since Jon screwed then murdered the love of his life. Instead the Dothraki are nowhere to be found because apparently after coming all this way and dying for people they don't even know, they leave after their Queen is murdered and with no loot to show for their efforts. Meanwhile, Greyworm apparently accepts Jon being banished but then promptly leaves with no actual ability to ensure Jon stays at the Night Watch and Jon is like screw it and he immediately abandons the Night Watch to go live with the Wildings and find more women he can fall in love with and then cause their deaths either indirectly (Ygritte) or directly (Dany).

    To cap it all of Mr. Screw Up Tyrion is made Hand and the Master of Coin is put in the hands of one of the least trustworthy characters in the whole show.

    And so ends Game of Thrones. Littlefinger must be turning in his grave at the stupidity that was Season 8. I give this Season a solid 2 out of 10 only because there was some great acting on the show even if the writing was some of the worst I have scene in the history of literature.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7585
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    They didn't take one season to do the 'Mad Queen turn' as you call it. They took SEVEN. If you're not cool with it now, I daresay a few more episodes were not going to sell you on it.

    The moment Mad Queen Dany is born? The first season finale. She steps into the fire of Drogo's pyre with three fossils and emerges unharmed and with three baby dragons. How do the Dothraki present respond? Not just embracing her as a queen, they prostrate themselves and worship her like a god.

    Her impressive collection of titles we've watched her amass? Deanarys Stormborn, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons. Her first three are the miracles she has taken part in! She hasn't gone mad in the final season, we are all just too taken with her and her underdog story to see it before now.
    Not sure how this correlates to burning innocent children when the enemy has already surrendered.

    This would be like saying I got an award at work today for employee of the month so the stage was set for me to murder my entire office several years later. I can imagine my coworkers now saying, "We should have never made him employee of the month 7 years ago. It set the stage for him killing us today." SMH!

    Could Dany have developed into a Mad Queen? Sure. Was the way the showrunners decided to do it in any way believable? Umm no. The way to do it would have been as Cersei suggested. Put civilians in the Red Keep and then have Dany burn it down to get to Cersei. As it stands, Dany saw Cersei and went and killed innocent people instead. Cersei could easily have escaped in that time. It is stupid.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-20-2019 at 06:36 PM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  11. #7586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Well...that all happened, I guess.

    What a dud of a finale.
    On the plus side, the writers of HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER are celebrating not longer having the most disappointing series finale ever.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Greatest_Username View Post
    This is basically my take on this season too. It’s a very underwhelming last season for one of the best TV shows in history.
    Yep.

    Jon Snow... Damn, could he be more of a whiny little bitch? He's knows the chick for 3 weeks and can't get his head out of his pants after he sees her murder thousands.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  13. #7588
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not sure how this correlates to burning innocent children when the enemy has already surrendered.

    This would be like saying I got an award at work today for employee of the month so the stage was set for me to murder my entire office several years later. I can imagine my coworkers now saying, "We should have never made him employee of the month 7 years ago. It set the stage for him killing us today." SMH!

    Could Dany have developed into a Mad Queen? Sure. Was the way the showrunners decided to do it in any way believable? Umm no. The way to do it would have been as Cersei suggested. Put civilians in the Red Keep and then have Dany burn it down to get to Cersei. As it stands, Dany saw Cersei and went and killed innocent people instead. Cersei could easily have escaped in that time. It is stupid.
    Agreed. This heel turn was just ridiculous. Poorly scripted dross that will serve to perpetuate the idea that women are to unstable to wield enormous power.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-20-2019 at 06:41 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not sure how this correlates to burning innocent children when the enemy has already surrendered.

    This would be like saying I got an award at work today for employee of the month so the stage was set for me to murder my entire office several years later. I can imagine my coworkers now saying, "We should have never made him employee of the month 7 years ago. It set the stage for him killing us today." SMH!

    Could Dany have developed into a Mad Queen? Sure. Was the way the showrunners decided to do it in any way believable? Umm no. The way to do it would have been as Cersei suggested. Put civilians in the Red Keep and then have Dany burn it down to get to Cersei. As it stands, Dany saw Cersei and went and killed innocent people instead. Cersei could easily have escaped in that time. It is stupid.
    As opposed to crucifying and burning people who were no longer a threat to her? You know historically two of the worst forms of murder in ever.

  15. #7590
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Yep.

    Jon Snow... Damn, could he be more of a whiny little bitch? He's knows the chick for 3 weeks and can't get his head out of his pants after he sees her murder thousands.
    Not sure why he came back to life. Should have just stayed dead. Turned into the 3rd most disappointing character in the whole show behind only the NK and Jamie.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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