Page 512 of 550 FirstFirst ... 12412462502508509510511512513514515516522 ... LastLast
Results 7,666 to 7,680 of 8236

Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7666
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,044

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    It doesnt matter what they were told. It matters whether they served as human shields which they did not.

    If you can kill someone without harming them then they are not shields.

    I believe Dany would burn a city but only if it was necessary to kill Cersei and win. The narrative fails because Dany burned a city when she already won and when Cersei could have been killed.

    Your argument is nonsensical. Dany didnt suggest she would burn shit for fun. She would burn shit in order to take the city and win but in this case she already won the city.

    You mean like how Dany could kill Cersei without killing Tarly’s?

    You can believe whatever the hell you want. Her actual words were that she would burn her enemies cities and return them to dust. So your beliefs don’t match up with her words of intent. Words she’s laid out many many times.

    We know for a fact all the slave owners weren’t evil. We know for a fact a fact Randyl and Dickon were no longer a threat. She claims she will do one thing many times and you say “I believe she would only do it if it meant killing Cersei”.

  2. #7667
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,044

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    It’s hard to say the civilians were human shields when Dany’s dragon surgically destroyed 80% of the cities defenses and even forced them to surrender without a single civilian casualty.

    The intent was they were shields. The intent was that Cersei got them to side with her over Dany. They were being used as shields. At that point they were no more dangerous than the enemies Dany had captured and had executed. By going in the city they were tools of Cersei and had rejected Dany. We saw how she treats people who reject her

  3. #7668
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    The intent was they were shields. The intent was that Cersei got them to side with her over Dany. They were being used as shields. At that point they were no more dangerous than the enemies Dany had captured and had executed. By going in the city they were tools of Cersei and had rejected Dany. We saw how she treats people who reject her
    Yeah, the civilians in the city essentially had an interesting dual purpose. For Cersi, it was an attempt at creating a deterent against Danys forces. I imagine she HOPED it would make Dany think twice about attacking, or at least slow her down.

    But I think the secondary effect was to show Dany that the people were seeking protection of Cersi FROM Dany. In her mind they didn't want to be liberated from Cersi if they were hiding FROM Dany.

    Ultimately I think Dany gets her way so often, that she doesn't handle NOT getting her way very well. Sieges are fun when the people side with you, and you're proclaimed their liberator and savior afterwards. Not so fun when they're not willing to jump on the bandwagon. From her perspective, these people didn't want to be saved. So she didn't save them.

  4. #7669
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,166

    Default

    I think this is a nice summary of why the series, particularly this season, took a nosedive.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...es/?redirect=1

    "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological"

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Answer this: why did you believe Dany wouldn’t burn a city when she threatened to burn every city she’s ever been to or talked about the whole show?
    I'm going to go with 'because despite all of her threats, she has never actually done it before.' Qarth and Mereen are still standing. So is Casterly Rock.

    Despite all of her threats, she never carried through with them and, instead, always ended up focusing on those in charge.

    Yes, there was foreshadowing, but there was also foreshadowing for a lot of other things that never came to be (most notably of late that Arya would go after Dany instead of meekly listening to Jon). It was always a possibility, but, as the above article makes clear, it was handled very poorly.

  5. #7670
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    2,166

    Default

    Putting the moderator hat back on.

    More edits. Last warning before bans start.

    Stop attacking the posters you don't agree with. If you think someone is violating the rules, don't respond in kind (that makes you just as culpable) but use the Report button.

    And don't Report and then reply. That's even worse.
    Gaelforce
    Superman/Wonder Woman/TV Film Forum Moderator
    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES - Ignorance of the rules is no excuse!

  6. #7671
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nowhere, Montana
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverse Happy View Post
    Poor Edmure. It would've been kinder to leave him half-forgotten by the audience.

    I'm surprised Gendry was able to collect on his appointed lordship of the Stormlands, especially after Dany died. He had no men of his own, and even if people cheered his appointment at the party, lending him manpower would've been quite another matter. Still, good for him.
    Yeah, why bring Edmure back just to humiliate him further?

    As for Gendry, once he explained he was Robert's newly-legitimized bastard, the Stormlords probably welcomed him with open arms. People forget that although Badass Bob Baratheon was a terrible king, he was pretty much universally loved.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

    Proud member of House Ravenclaw and loyal bannerman to House Baratheon

    "I am an optimist even though I am told everything I do is negative and cynical" --Armando Iannucci

  7. #7672
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Yeah, why bring Edmure back just to humiliate him further?

    As for Gendry, once he explained he was Robert's newly-legitimized bastard, the Stormlords probably welcomed him with open arms. People forget that although Badass Bob Baratheon was a terrible king, he was pretty much universally loved.
    I think they just thought the scene with Edmure was funny. I'll admit I got a giggle out of it.

  8. #7673
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Nowhere, Montana
    Posts
    342

    Default

    Can I just say that I'm happy the show seems to hammer the final nail in the coffin of the theory that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen?

    That is one theory that has never been supported by a strain of speculative evidence. We know that the Mad King had the hots for Tywin's wife and took "liberties" with her during the bedding ceremony...but Jaime and Cersei were born before Tyrion (and we have no evidence suggesting the Mad King ever had contact with Joanna Lannister following her wedding to Tywin). So if anything, Jaime and Cersei may be the Mad King's children. Cersei and Joffrey were certainly mad.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

    Proud member of House Ravenclaw and loyal bannerman to House Baratheon

    "I am an optimist even though I am told everything I do is negative and cynical" --Armando Iannucci

  9. #7674
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Itís hard to say the civilians were human shields when Danyís dragon surgically destroyed 80% of the cities defenses and even forced them to surrender without a single civilian casualty.
    Exactly. They were not shields. The Cersei narrative of using them as shields was in fact bogus. That is what maked what Dany did stupid.

    I would disagree if she torched the red keep with civilians in it to kill Cersei but that would at leadt be a logical thing to do if you want to kill Cersei.

    The problem here is the narrative established that Dany wanted to burn kids more than she wanted to punish Cersei as she forgoes killing Cersei to BBQ kids instead.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7675
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,044

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think this is a nice summary of why the series, particularly this season, took a nosedive.

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...es/?redirect=1

    "It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological"



    I'm going to go with 'because despite all of her threats, she has never actually done it before.' Qarth and Mereen are still standing. So is Casterly Rock.

    Despite all of her threats, she never carried through with them and, instead, always ended up focusing on those in charge.

    Yes, there was foreshadowing, but there was also foreshadowing for a lot of other things that never came to be (most notably of late that Arya would go after Dany instead of meekly listening to Jon). It was always a possibility, but, as the above article makes clear, it was handled very poorly.
    To your first point I would argue that a big part of that is the story had a very clever trick it pulled early on. The true story was Jon’s war with the others and Dany’s conquest. Both of those were slow burn storylines. Dany needed to get her dragons and travel through Essos building an army from nothing. To realistically do that she needed to overcome true adversity to get her prepared for the point of her story. With Jon he needed to discover the threat and actually ascend to a position he where he was powerful enough to do that. We are 5 books in and those are still happening. In the show it took 6 seasons.

    Everything else was setting the stage for those two storylines. As long as the evil Cersei Lannister ended up on the throne as a common enemy to deny Jon help and be the evil Queen for Dany to take down in a conquest of a fractured kingdom, it didn’t matter. But the stage setting was flavored with an incest mystery storyline, then the Northern secession, then the the War of the Five King’s. Then Stannis whose only real purpose was to lose to the Lannisters and have Mel around to resurrect Jon and I guess give him Davos. So all that political intrigue and killing of main characters was largely over a part of the story not really essential.

    Then we reached the point where the real plot lines started and it became a more conventional fantasy story. You couldn’t subvert and undercut Jon the way you could Robb, Ned, Joffrey, the Tyrell’s, etc. that was indicated by Jon’s death being the first major one they walked back. Once that happened it signaled the start of the main plot lines. Jon returned and won Winterfell to start staging his final battle. Dany finished up building her army tied up lose ends in Essos, and traveled. That’s why the ending of season 6 was so clean. Cersei literally blows up every plot in KL. The Tyrell alliance, her meddling uncle Kevin, the Sparrows, oh and Tommen threw himself out a window. Because the primary stories of a Kingdom ruled by an evil queen going to war with a soon to be tyrant usurper while Jon Snow was trying to save the realm had started. And at that point the plotting mandates certain things and you are less flexible in what dynamics you can use.

    To your second point, I disagree with it being handled poorly. Dany at her base was a girl from a smoky of conquerors who ruled by burning their enemies and getting them to submit to their will because they thought they were special snowflake rulers who knew better. Dany over the course of her journey stated her intent was to do just that because her last name made her special and she knew a better way to run the world than the people running. The subversion was that the first people Dany faced were black and white caricatures of evil warlords and slave masters with cities filled with victims for her to save in her conquest. We got hints that what she was doing was wrong, but the people on the receiving end were so evil that nobody could question it and she faced no resistance from an oppressed population and she fashioned herself as a savior (that usually has some serious negatives historically).

    Then she came to Westeros where we knew the power structure she wanted to usurp. Cersei for sure was bad, but we understood her more. Jon and Sansa in the independent North were much less so. But she wanted to rule both. She pulled back from Sansa when she realized she wasn’t going to give her what she wants. Then she faced people who were actually fighting for their realm and weren’t just spaces automatically embracing Dany. And she burned the ones who didn’t outright submit. Then her advisors like Jorah and Tyrion who were able to talk her down from her worst impulses in a much easier situation either died or lost her trust in a much greater situation. So she resorted to what she knew. What she always said she was. What her ancestors before her were. Dany was going to be another Aegon only on the world scale. She might have even ruled well like Aegon once she won. But she was going to burn all who resisted her and her will was going to be the final word. Everyone else was going to have to pay the price.

  11. #7676
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    All the "winning" sides went on to sack towns and pillage and such.

    ain't no "good" people in medieval war.

    The North was right there with dany, the unsullied, and Dothraki killing civilians, raping,a nd pillaging
    Actually looked like the Unsullied only attacked soldiers albeit surrendered. They are Eunuch's so have no need for rape and Greyworm decides to go to Naath presumably to protect Missandei's people.

    The only reason he attacked the soldiers is because once Dany started torching civilians the enemy would be forced to pick up their swords as you are not going to think you will be spared if she burning kids. So Greyworm correctly surmised it was better to attack first than wait for the confusion of the situation to wear off and the enemy to attack. Dany forced his hand.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  12. #7677
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    3,044

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Can I just say that I'm happy the show seems to hammer the final nail in the coffin of the theory that Tyrion is a secret Targaryen?

    That is one theory that has never been supported by a strain of speculative evidence. We know that the Mad King had the hots for Tywin's wife and took "liberties" with her during the bedding ceremony...but Jaime and Cersei were born before Tyrion (and we have no evidence suggesting the Mad King ever had contact with Joanna Lannister following her wedding to Tywin). So if anything, Jaime and Cersei may be the Mad King's children. Cersei and Joffrey were certainly mad.

    Honestly it was always far more likely that Cersei and Jamie were Targaryens. As you said that line went mad and their was a propensity for incest. Also we know that Joanna and the Mad King probably had an affair before she was dismissed from court. I always thought the greater irony was that Jamie and Cersei probably weren’t Tywin’s kids and Tyrion was his only true son. Also then the series would effectively end with one Targaryen taking the throne by murdering two Targaryen’s, before that reign was cut short by another Targaryen killing her and then being exiled for it effectively ending the line

  13. #7678
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    You mean like how Dany could kill Cersei without killing Tarly’s?

    You can believe whatever the hell you want. Her actual words were that she would burn her enemies cities and return them to dust. So your beliefs don’t match up with her words of intent. Words she’s laid out many many times.

    We know for a fact all the slave owners weren’t evil. We know for a fact a fact Randyl and Dickon were no longer a threat. She claims she will do one thing many times and you say “I believe she would only do it if it meant killing Cersei”.
    Tarly fought for Cersei and refused to bend the knee so it is entirely possible he would fight again since he refused to recognize her rule. So no it is not a fact he was no longer a threat. That is absurd. Jamie fought for Dany and still ended up going back to Cersei so people who refuse to bend the knee remain a threat.

    The innocent children were not given a choice and you still have not established how they were shields. They were not shields and thus their deaths were stupid writing.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  14. #7679
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,316

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Exactly. They were not shields. The Cersei narrative of using them as shields was in fact bogus. That is what maked what Dany did stupid.

    I would disagree if she torched the red keep with civilians in it to kill Cersei but that would at leadt be a logical thing to do if you want to kill Cersei.

    The problem here is the narrative established that Dany wanted to burn kids more than she wanted to punish Cersei as she forgoes killing Cersei to BBQ kids instead.
    THey were intended to be shields... it's just that Cersi's plan didn't work.

    It was an understandable miscalculation on her part. She thought Dany might be more merciful towards KL by having innocent people in it seeking protection. But in seeking protection with Cersi FROM Dany, it instead created the impression that these people didn't want saving from her. THerefore she didn't save them. Instead of being people that needed liberation, they became part of the wheel which she wanted to liberate the "good" people from.

    And I think that sort of highlights the differences between Cersi and Dany as villains. Cersi is a selfish monster and she knows it... she's perfectly sane and self-aware in that regard. Dany on the otherhand deluded herself into thinking she was a better person than she actually was, and that actually made her far far more dangerous. Cersi at least KNOWS she's doing the wrong thing when she does it. Dany doesn't.

  15. #7680
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kansas City
    Posts
    3,691

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    The intent was they were shields. The intent was that Cersei got them to side with her over Dany. They were being used as shields. At that point they were no more dangerous than the enemies Dany had captured and had executed. By going in the city they were tools of Cersei and had rejected Dany. We saw how she treats people who reject her
    Except Dany could kill Cersei without harming them. These people did not take up arms against her or refuse to bend the knee like the Tarley's so the comparison is off. The bells were rung so to compare to Tarley's they should have been given the choice to bend the knee.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 08:45 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •