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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7681
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, the civilians in the city essentially had an interesting dual purpose. For Cersi, it was an attempt at creating a deterent against Danys forces. I imagine she HOPED it would make Dany think twice about attacking, or at least slow her down.

    But I think the secondary effect was to show Dany that the people were seeking protection of Cersi FROM Dany. In her mind they didn't want to be liberated from Cersi if they were hiding FROM Dany.

    Ultimately I think Dany gets her way so often, that she doesn't handle NOT getting her way very well. Sieges are fun when the people side with you, and you're proclaimed their liberator and savior afterwards. Not so fun when they're not willing to jump on the bandwagon. From her perspective, these people didn't want to be saved. So she didn't save them.
    Except they wanted to be saved because the bells were rung.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    THey were intended to be shields... it's just that Cersi's plan didn't work.

    It was an understandable miscalculation on her part. She thought Dany might be more merciful towards KL by having innocent people in it seeking protection. But in seeking protection with Cersi FROM Dany, it instead created the impression that these people didn't want saving from her. THerefore she didn't save them. Instead of being people that needed liberation, they became part of the wheel which she wanted to liberate the "good" people from.

    And I think that sort of highlights the differences between Cersi and Dany as villains. Cersi is a selfish monster and she knows it... she's perfectly sane and self-aware in that regard. Dany on the otherhand deluded herself into thinking she was a better person than she actually was, and that actually made her far far more dangerous. Cersi at least KNOWS she's doing the wrong thing when she does it. Dany doesn't.
    Again they rung the bells indicating they wanted to be saved. Dany agreed with Tyrion that if they rung the bells she would stop. Dany had never lied like that before and she has never just torched people without giving them a clear choice. Dany as previously written would have honored her promise to Tyrion and asked the civilians to bend the knee. If and only if they refused would she treat them like the Tarley's.

    This was simply an out of character moment. Also Cersei plan was terrible writing. She could simply have placed civilians in the Red Keep and made them actual shields. She did not because of plot induced stupidity. If they were in the Red Keep and Dany burned it down that would still be horrific but would make sense. They didnt do that as this whole season has been ignoring plot and logic for shock value.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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  2. #7682
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Except Dany could kill Cersei without harming them. These people did not take up arms against her or refuse to bend the knee like the Tarley's so the comparison is dumb.
    She can kill Cersi without harming the civilians, but not surgically. She doesn't know exactly where Cersi is, so the only way to kill her from atop the dragon is to completely demolish the Red Keep. And that will kill far more people than JUST Cersi.

    The civilians on the streets also mean that the dragon would have difficulty reinforcing Danys troops on the ground without potential collateral damage and casualties.

    Cersi's plan didn't work, but it wasn't pointless. There was a rationale to it, even if it backfired.

  3. #7683
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Except they wanted to be saved because the bells were rung.



    Again they rung the bells indicating they wanted to be saved. Dany agreed with Tyrion that if they rung the bells she would stop. Dany had never lied like that before and she has never just torched people without giving them a clear choice. Dany as previously written would have honored her promise to Tyrion and asked the civilians to bend the knee. If and only if they refused would she treat them like the Tarley's.

    This was simply an out of character moment. Also Cersei plan was terrible writing. She could simply have placed civilians in the Red Keep and made them actual shields. She did not because of plot induced stupidity.
    They wanted to be saved from Dany... not Cersi. There's a big difference.

    And if you're Cersi you probably don't want to put Civilians in the actual Red Keep, because they might turn on their queen to save their own butts from Dany. Despite what she says at times, I think Cersi knows full well that she's not a beloved queen. Her walk of shame illustrated that pretty clearly.

    Also, civilians on the streets can potentially slow down Danys forces and in theory make it harder for the dragon to reinforce Danys troops from the air. In theory... clearly it didn't work out that way.
    Last edited by XPac; 05-21-2019 at 08:51 AM.

  4. #7684
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    She can kill Cersi without harming the civilians, but not surgically. She doesn't know exactly where Cersi is, so the only way to kill her from atop the dragon is to completely demolish the Red Keep. And that will kill far more people than JUST Cersi.

    The civilians on the streets also mean that the dragon would have difficulty reinforcing Danys troops on the ground without potential collateral damage and casualties.

    Cersi's plan didn't work, but it wasn't pointless. There was a rationale to it, even if it backfired.
    She sees Cersei at the top of the Red Keep. And yes some civilians would die but the plot would make sense. Cersei is the cause of Missandei death not the civilians. Logically you attack the Red Keep and the civilians are collateral damage.

    Instead she opts for flat out murder which is not consistent with her character and gives Cersei ample time to escape which is dumb.

    Troops on ground dont need reinforcement because they surrenderd and Golden Company is no more.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  5. #7685
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    They wanted to be saved from Dany... not Cersi. There's a big difference.

    And if you're Cersi you probably don't want to put Civilians in the actual Red Keep, because they might turn on their queen to save their own butts from Dany. Despite what she says at times, I think Cersi knows full well that she's not a beloved queen. Her walk of shame illustrated that pretty clearly.

    Also, civilians on the streets can potentially slow down Danys forces and in theory make it harder for the dragon to reinforce Danys troops from the air. In theory... clearly it didn't work out that way.
    They wanted to be saved from the battle. They went to Cersei because she is the devil they know. This is obvious because they rang the bells.

    And again Dany pledged to Tyrion she would stop if they rung the bells. When has she flat out lied like that?
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  6. #7686
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    She can kill Cersi without harming the civilians, but not surgically. She doesn't know exactly where Cersi is, so the only way to kill her from atop the dragon is to completely demolish the Red Keep. And that will kill far more people than JUST Cersi.

    The civilians on the streets also mean that the dragon would have difficulty reinforcing Danys troops on the ground without potential collateral damage and casualties.

    Cersi's plan didn't work, but it wasn't pointless. There was a rationale to it, even if it backfired.
    The shield doesn't work if there's nothing for it to protect. There was no scorpion's station in civilian populated areas of the city, there was no civilians stationed near the port nor near the Golden Company. There was not a single time where Dany had to worry about civilians getting caught in the crossfire while engaging Cersei's forces. You could kill off her entire fleet, all of her anti-dragon weapons, everybody stationed along the walls and a good portion of her army without endangering a single civilian life. At that point, there was nothing but what's left of the Lannister army standing between Dany's entire ground force (which took 0 causalities prior to breaching the walls) and Cersei herself. Dany's dragon wasn't needed for support because her army was clearly more than capable of handling what little remained.

  7. #7687
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    She sees Cersei at the top of the Red Keep. And yes some civilians would die but the plot would make sense. Cersei is the cause of Missandei death not the civilians. Logically you attack the Red Keep and the civilians are collateral damage.

    Instead she opts for flat out murder which is not consistent with her character.
    Assuming she could actually see Cersi inside the Red Keep from that distance, obviously Cersi can walk away from the balacony at any point and did just that. She can guess where Cersi might be but ultimately from a dragon at least she can only kill her by taking out the whole buidling. Which again kills a lot more people than just Cersi.

  8. #7688
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    The shield doesn't work if there's nothing for it to protect. There was no scorpion's station in civilian populated areas of the city, there was no civilians stationed near the port nor near the Golden Company. You could kill off her entire fleet, her entire anti-dragon weapons, everybody along the walls and a good portion of her army without endangering a single civilian life. At that point, there was nothing but what's left of the Lannister army standing between Dany's entire ground force and Cersei herself. Dany's dragon wasn't needed for support because her army was clearly more than capable of handling what little remained.
    Worst shields ever. And the armies rung the bell so air support is moot as they were not fighting any longer.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 08:59 AM.
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  9. #7689
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Assuming she could actually see Cersi inside the Red Keep from that distance, obviously Cersi can walk away from the balacony at any point and did just that. She can guess where Cersi might be but ultimately from a dragon at least she can only kill her by taking out the whole buidling. Which again kills a lot more people than just Cersi.
    Which again would make sense because you want to kill Cersei. Not sure you point. I already said that she should burn Red Keep down. I am aware there would be civilian casualties.

    However there is a difference between collateral damage and mass murder. What Dany did was mass murder that served no purpose. If she had just attacked the Red Keep it would be collateral damage which is still bad but not the same.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7690
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Dany snapping was foreshadowed and fine and in character.

    It was just sloppily done, like the whole season.
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  11. #7691
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Dany snapping was foreshadowed and fine and in character.

    It was just sloppily done, like the whole season.
    Precisely. Poorly written but foreshadowed.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  12. #7692
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Worst shields ever.
    Absolutely the worst shield ever. Cersi didn't understand what sort of person she was dealing with... if she did, she would have realized she was wasting her time. To Cersi it was a shield, but to Dany it was just target practice.

    If suppose if you're Cersi in the LEAST it's a PR hit against Dany. Cersi's actions obviously don't save her, but it helped take Dany down in a somewhat indirect manner by exposing to everyone who Dany was. Doubt Cersi herself would feel any better about that small win, but it's something.

  13. #7693
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Which again would make sense because you want to kill Cersei. Not sure you point. I already said that she should burn Red Keep down. I am aware there would be civilian casualties.

    However there is a difference between collateral damage and mass murder. What Dany did was mass murder that served no purpose. If she had just attacked the Red Keep it would be collateral damage which is still bad but not the same.
    My point was in response to you saying this.

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Except Dany could kill Cersei without harming them. These people did not take up arms against her or refuse to bend the knee like the Tarley's so the comparison is off. The bells were rung so to compare to Tarley's they should have been given the choice to bend the knee.
    She was not going to take Cersi from atop a dragon without harming a LOT of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Dany snapping was foreshadowed and fine and in character.

    It was just sloppily done, like the whole season.
    I wouldn’t even say it was poorly written. It was just paced poorly, like everything else. Between episode 4 and 5 we had Dany not eating for days, isolating herself, learning someone was conspiring against her, losing faith in Tyrion. Even Jamie getting captured

    That’s where a legit episode exploring that would have been amazing. Tyrion trying to talk Dany down and failing. Dany discovering letters about Jon Snow going out. Her mourning Missandei and Jorah. Battle plans explaining Cersei bringing in citizens to “protect” them from Dany. Dany feeling rejected. Knowing the North and Sansa didn’t prefer her. Mourning her dragon. Feeling rejected by the people with Cersei.

    That was all clearly there, but knowing it and seeing it are different things.

  15. #7695
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    In the books we know the character's POV, not in the show and it would have felt awkward to have Daenerys making a monologue from the back of a dragon. So all we have in this moment is Emilia Clarke's face and I think she did a great job of conveying me one feeling: frustration. She almost cries like a child refused her toy to play.
    She destroys KL out of frustration for all the people she lost.

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