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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7711
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    Let's hope so. I don't see how he could do worst though so odds are good.
    Honestly you could get a bunch of 5th graders to write something better. Well assuming Dany doesnt burn them for no logical reason first.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  2. #7712
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Martin isn't perfect, but he has a MUCH better track record then D&D. So even if we get the same broad strokes story in the books, I fully believe that it will be better written, more logical, more built-up to, etc than the show did it.

    I mean these are the same guys who used the infamous "Dany just kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet and Euron's forces" excuse to justify a stupid writing thing that they did (and it doesn't even make sense within that same episode). And they used those type of excuses A LOT this season.
    Yeah the memes of that stupid logic are hilarious. Dany was just told Euron had shipped 20k mercs to KL but somehow forgot about him.

    Then instead of simply flying around the ships and torching from behind, she charges them head on. My 13 year old niece that was watching it asked me why she didnt fly around them and I said because the writers are idiots.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  3. #7713
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    There were plenty of civilians outside the Red Keep, who obviously were endangered when the building began to collapse. Again, Dragons are not necessarily precise weapons. People didn't need to be in the castle to die from the attack, though almost certainly there had to be some people in the castle who could qualify as innocent civilians.

    But certainly the casualties were far higher than those in and around the castle. Again, that's where Cersi miscalculated. She didn't understand Dany well enough to know that placing the people under Cersi's protection essentially meant that Dany no longer cared about saving them.
    Whether or not shields were the point or were effective, 'dragons are not necessarily precise weapons' doesn't seem relevant.

    Dani intentionally flew down streets packed with screaming, fleeing civilians and burned them to ash.

    Looking at the wide shots of the city, she was nowhere near the Red Keep for much of her attack. The dragon is precise enough to flood individual streets, so it wasn't a matter of falling buildings or accidental spillover of dragonfire. She quite intentionally made multiple 'kill the fleeing/screaming citizen' passes.

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah the memes of that stupid logic are hilarious. Dany was just told Euron had shipped 20k mercs to KL but somehow forgot about him.

    Then instead of simply flying around the ships and torching from behind, she charges them head on. My 13 year old niece that was watching it asked me why she didnt fly around them and I said because the writers are idiots.
    Not only did Dani forget about them, but so did Tyrion and Varys and Davos and Jon and...

  4. #7714
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Yeah Cersei didnt miscalculate. The writers wrote it stupidly.

    There is no logical reason for anyone to think Dany would burn children nowhere near the keep as those people had already surrendered. There is actually no value in killing them as they dont effect the outcome at all.

    At this point we might as well agree to disagree. It is literally one of the dumbest things I have ever encountered in storytelling history and we arent going to change each others minds. The war was won. Nothing about Dany torching people after she won makes sense.

    I suspect if Martin finishes his book, he will come up with a better way to justify Dany going mad.
    If the idea was that what Dany was doing was logical, they'd be calling her the logical queen rather than the Mad Queen. We're not supposed to believe what she's doing is the right thing, or even necessarily smart. That's what makes Dany the bad guy, and what makes bad guys bad guys in general.

    If you're against what Dany was doing then GOOD... that was the point.

  5. #7715
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Whether or not shields were the point or were effective, 'dragons are not necessarily precise weapons' doesn't seem relevant.

    Dani intentionally flew down streets packed with screaming, fleeing civilians and burned them to ash.

    Looking at the wide shots of the city, she was nowhere near the Red Keep for much of her attack. The dragon is precise enough to flood individual streets, so it wasn't a matter of falling buildings or accidental spillover of dragonfire. She quite intentionally made multiple 'kill the fleeing/screaming citizen' passes.



    Not only did Dani forget about them, but so did Tyrion and Varys and Davos and Jon and...
    The precision of a dragons is kind of relavent when you're attempting to counter the point that Dany can kill Cersi without harming civilians. You've got a queen in a castle surrounded by people and you're on a dragon. I'm doubtful Dany could have killed Cersi without massive collateral damage to the people at least outside the castle even if she tried. Though yes, in the end it's all moot because clearly she didn't give a dam. Again, they weren't shields to Dany... they were target practice.

  6. #7716
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Honestly you could get a bunch of 5th graders to write something better. Well assuming Dany doesnt burn them for no logical reason first.
    Let's hope Martin also has something better in store for the Night King than the sad farce we had the misfortune to witness.

    Of course the dude has to die, by Arya's hand why not, that's not really the issue. But damn...

  7. #7717
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The precision of a dragons is kind of relavent when you're attempting to counter the point that Dany can kill Cersi without harming civilians. You've got a queen in a castle surrounded by people and you're on a dragon. I'm doubtful Dany could have killed Cersi without massive collateral damage to the people at least outside the castle even if she tried. Though yes, in the end it's all moot because clearly she didn't give a dam. Again, they weren't shields to Dany... they were target practice.
    I think the difference that remydat is trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong, remydat) is that Cersei is in the Red Keep, the sight of the Red Keep is what, according to the writers, sets Dani off, but she doesn't go for the Red Keep. Instead, she cruises through the rest of the city burning it down.

    If innocent people/shields had died while Dani was bringing down the Keep, either because they were near or in it, then that would be more in line with the 'I don't care about shields'. The question is, why fly to the opposite side of the city to target fleeing and screaming civilians while the Red Keep is housing the enemy?

    The Red Keep is, relatively speaking, isolated from the rest of the city.



    It's not that the Keep and the surrounding area were turned to ash, it's that she repeatedly made strafing runs on the opposite side of the city specifically targeting people who were nowhere near Cersei or the Red Keep.



    Hope that clarifies!

  8. #7718
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    The problem with that is that it ties into the larger problem with this season, namely Jon is pretty superfluous. Everything that they seemed to be building up for him, his entire arc, and his past, gets thrown out the window and replaced with, nothing. And after setting up this parallel between him and TNK over and over and over again, having Jon be the one most aware of the threat and trying to rally the different sides to face it, the fact that not only does he not kill TNK (I guess all of those staredowns that the show gave those two, and Jon repeatedly saying that "I've seen TNK, I've looked into his eyes, meant nothing in the end, just like most of his story," but he's not even there when TNK dies and does very little of note in that episode at all. But instead the kill goes to Arya, someone who, until that episode, had NEVER been anywhere near TNK and had no interactions with him or the White Walkers at all, and whose story didn't connect to them at all either, just speaks to the writing problems.

    And I cannot imagine GRRM doing that.

  9. #7719
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    If the idea was that what Dany was doing was logical, they'd be calling her the logical queen rather than the Mad Queen. We're not supposed to believe what she's doing is the right thing, or even necessarily smart. That's what makes Dany the bad guy, and what makes bad guys bad guys in general.

    If you're against what Dany was doing then GOOD... that was the point.
    No I am against shitty writting. If Dany had actually killed civilians near the red keep I would be against it but it would not be shitty writing.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 10:59 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  10. #7720
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The precision of a dragons is kind of relavent when you're attempting to counter the point that Dany can kill Cersi without harming civilians. You've got a queen in a castle surrounded by people and you're on a dragon. I'm doubtful Dany could have killed Cersi without massive collateral damage to the people at least outside the castle even if she tried. Though yes, in the end it's all moot because clearly she didn't give a dam. Again, they weren't shields to Dany... they were target practice.
    Collateral damage is generally not a war crime. Seeking out children and torching them for laughs is.

    Any collateral damage pails in comparison to what she actually did as again far more civilians were away from keep and if she burned the keep it would take time to collapse allowing civilians to flee.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  11. #7721
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think the difference that remydat is trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong, remydat) is that Cersei is in the Red Keep, the sight of the Red Keep is what, according to the writers, sets Dani off, but she doesn't go for the Red Keep. Instead, she cruises through the rest of the city burning it down.

    If innocent people/shields had died while Dani was bringing down the Keep, either because they were near or in it, then that would be more in line with the 'I don't care about shields'. The question is, why fly to the opposite side of the city to target fleeing and screaming civilians while the Red Keep is housing the enemy?

    The Red Keep is, relatively speaking, isolated from the rest of the city.



    It's not that the Keep and the surrounding area were turned to ash, it's that she repeatedly made strafing runs on the opposite side of the city specifically targeting people who were nowhere near Cersei or the Red Keep.



    Hope that clarifies!
    Precisely. The time it took for her to murder babies, Cersei could have escaped so her attacks on helpless civilians is not only horrific but tactically stupid. The person who killed your best friend is isolated in a tower. Go destroy the tower. Instead she essentially kills people nowhere near the keep.

    If not for Sandro and Euron delaying things, Cersei and Jamie escape via boat and her vengeneance would be left wanting. For her to delay killing Cersei to stir fry children is the height of plot induced stupidity.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-21-2019 at 11:08 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  12. #7722
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    The problem with that is that it ties into the larger problem with this season, namely Jon is pretty superfluous. Everything that they seemed to be building up for him, his entire arc, and his past, gets thrown out the window and replaced with, nothing. And after setting up this parallel between him and TNK over and over and over again, having Jon be the one most aware of the threat and trying to rally the different sides to face it, the fact that not only does he not kill TNK (I guess all of those staredowns that the show gave those two, and Jon repeatedly saying that "I've seen TNK, I've looked into his eyes, meant nothing in the end, just like most of his story," but he's not even there when TNK dies and does very little of note in that episode at all. But instead the kill goes to Arya, someone who, until that episode, had NEVER been anywhere near TNK and had no interactions with him or the White Walkers at all, and whose story didn't connect to them at all either, just speaks to the writing problems.

    And I cannot imagine GRRM doing that.
    1. There is no Night King in the books yet

    2. You really think GRRM is going to have some cliche battle between Jon and the villain

  13. #7723
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Collateral damage is generally not a war crime. Seeking out children and torching them for laughs is.

    Any collateral damage pails in comparison to what she actually did as again far more civilians were away from keep and if she burned the keep it would take time to collapse allowing civilians to flee.
    Not saying collateral damange is a war crime. Again, just disagreeing with the notion that she could kill Cersi without harming innocent people. Not on a dragon.

    But certainly I would agree what we saw was more than collateral damage. If Dany actually cared about civilan lives at this point she obviously would have handled things differently. But that's why she's called the Mad Queen rather than the Nice Queen.

  14. #7724
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    Both of those are irrelevant to the show's problems. The show set this up and the show failed to pay it off.

  15. #7725
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I think the difference that remydat is trying to make (please correct me if I'm wrong, remydat) is that Cersei is in the Red Keep, the sight of the Red Keep is what, according to the writers, sets Dani off, but she doesn't go for the Red Keep. Instead, she cruises through the rest of the city burning it down.

    If innocent people/shields had died while Dani was bringing down the Keep, either because they were near or in it, then that would be more in line with the 'I don't care about shields'. The question is, why fly to the opposite side of the city to target fleeing and screaming civilians while the Red Keep is housing the enemy?

    The Red Keep is, relatively speaking, isolated from the rest of the city.



    It's not that the Keep and the surrounding area were turned to ash, it's that she repeatedly made strafing runs on the opposite side of the city specifically targeting people who were nowhere near Cersei or the Red Keep.



    Hope that clarifies!
    If the question is WHY didn't she fly to the Red Keep, the simple answer is she decided to kill all the civilians too.

    She came to the conclusion, right or wrong, that she wasn't a liberator of the people of KL because they were seeking protection with Cersi FROM her. From her warped perspective (again, Mad Queen), they didn't want saving from Cersi, therefore there was no reason to bother saving them. So they shared Cersi and the Lanisters army fate.

    If you're looking for a competely rational logical reason for why she did what she did, don't bother... there isn't one. At least not entirely. Again, that's sort of the point of her snapping. She wasn't doing the right thing for the right reason, and we're not supposed to think she was. We're supposed to think she freaking went nuts.

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