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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7771
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The idea of massacring an entire city that surrenders can be considered absurd logic, but again... she's not being called the logical queen. She's being called the MAD queen.

    Meaning her actions aren't supposed to be entirely moral or even necessarily logical. People speculating that she will be the MAD queen pretty much means she'll go freaking nuts. Which would entirely be the point if they decide to go in this direction, which they did.
    This is pretty circular logic. We know the writers wanted to write her mad so anything they do is fine because it doesnt have to be logical. That is silly.

    Whether a character is insane or not, a work of fiction needs to tell a story in a way that makes sense. It is clear this didnt make sense as the show went from being universally loved to much more mixed responses.

    Her being mad makes sense. The way they achieved it did not.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  2. #7772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I agree!

    But I also think that stating that 'she kept saying she would burn places down' as evidence that she was actually going to do it doesn't wash when she repeatedly *didn't* burn places down

    Sorry, I disagree with this one. In fact, as I recall, it's generally the opposite - those who talk a big game rarely follow up on it.
    Well I think the big gripe that everyone had wasn't that someone turned into a mass murdering psychopath out of the blue, but that it happened to a character that so many people were emotionally invested in and really cared about. If Sansa decided to blow up King's Landing out of the blue, nobody would care because nobody really cares about Sansa, but there is something about Dany's story arc that made her really appealing to a lot of people. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what that is though, because Emilia Clarke's acting was always a bit hit or miss and the writing verged on Mary Sue territory plenty of times, not to mention the problematic white savior angle in much of her story, but the character did resonate with a lot of people and while the writers are not obliged to bend to fanboys they should at least be conscious of that when writing the end of her story.

  3. #7773
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    This is pretty circular logic. We know the writers wanted to write her mad so anything they do is fine because it doesnt have to be logical. That is silly.

    Whether a character is insane or not, a work of fiction needs to tell a story in a way that makes sense. It is clear this didnt make sense as the show went from being universally loved to much more mixed responses.

    Her being mad makes sense. The way they achieved it did not.
    Mass murder of innocent people pretty much never makes sense. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in fiction, or real life for that matter. If it needed to be logical, it wouldn't happen in either.

    If we were say talking about Twin Lannister I actually would agree it would need to make sense. He's an evil man, but he does things for a reason. Even if they are purely selfish reasons, they SHOULD make sense at least from his perspective. But he's not mad. Dany is, and that means her logic doesn't have to be bullet proof.

    To Dany, the people of Kings Landing didn't turn against Cersi and in fact sought her protect FROM Dany. Therefore, they were on Cersi's side rather than hers and shared their fate. It's flawed logic to you and me, but we're not mad.

  4. #7774
    the devil's reject choptop's Avatar
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    I don't really care wether it made a lot of sense or not (a lot of heel turns don't) she was still a pretty good villain so why not?

  5. #7775
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    Well I think the big gripe that everyone had wasn't that someone turned into a mass murdering psychopath out of the blue, but that it happened to a character that so many people were emotionally invested in and really cared about. If Sansa decided to blow up King's Landing out of the blue, nobody would care because nobody really cares about Sansa, but there is something about Dany's story arc that made her really appealing to a lot of people. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what that is though, because Emilia Clarke's acting was always a bit hit or miss and the writing verged on Mary Sue territory plenty of times, not to mention the problematic white savior angle in much of her story, but the character did resonate with a lot of people and while the writers are not obliged to bend to fanboys they should at least be conscious of that when writing the end of her story.
    Oh, I'm sure they were VERY conscious of the fact that Dany was very popular. The fact that this would upset a lot of people did not go over anyone's head.

    But I think what makes GoT different from a lot of shows is that the usual catering to main characters doesn't necessarily happen... there isn't that safety net. It's something the show is known for to the point I think there would be a backlash if they didn't operate this way. That's just all part of the emotional roller coaster that comes from watching this particular show.

  6. #7776
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by choptop View Post
    I don't really care wether it made a lot of sense or not (a lot of heel turns don't) she was still a pretty good villain so why not?
    She was freaking boss in that scene. It sent chills up my back.

    A two minute speech made Dany scarier than the Night King ever was in like 3-4 seasons (and that's no diss against the Night King, who was cool no pun intened).

  7. #7777
    Amazing Member PoorStudent's Avatar
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    For me I think what bothered me the most wasn't the endings or where they went with the characters, but that the main characters and their story arc's were cut short, but minor characters and threads were shown and discussed, like Bran becoming king or Arya sailing, or Sansa becoming queen, who the small council is, etc.

    It wasn't that I wanted good endings but I wanted something more dramatic then the awkwardness that we got.

    If Jon killed Dany and then Drogon came in and killed him or he was beheaded it would have been dark, but it would have made an impact.

    If Cersi died by Arya or Jamie or Tyrion or Dany or survived in spite of all this it would have been something, but instead we get this weird middle ground where they die by rocks falling on them.

    What we got was a scene where Jon kills Dany then grows a beard and goes up north. They don't bring up the fact that Dany killed all those people, his lineage or the Army of the Dead at all.

    Like they spent time showing Tyrion moving chairs and the new positions of the small council. I would have liked to have seen the aftermath of what Jon did, and the calling of the North to come to King's Landing. Or give Dany a moment when she can take a moment and sit in the chair or something.

    The major players who risked everything got sidelined so that the minor characters could have their moments.

    I know that others will disagree, and that's fine, but the feeling for me by the end of the show and series is disappointment.

  8. #7778
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    In short, the show went, "Going too hot or too cold is a bad idea. Find something in between you idiots!"

    The Night's King kept growing his undead army. And with every loss those he fought took, he added that to his forces. And being that only certain things can kill his wights, and fewer for the Others, its not hard to add to his forces.

    Dany and her dragons, well, King's Landing. Dance of Dragons. Etc.

    And Starks have been rulers longer than most, if not all other families have been in Westeros. And they're still ruling. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

  9. #7779
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Please show me where people speculated the city would surrender and she would burn innocent children anyway.
    Wasn't doubt about that the crux of Varys' betrayal?

  10. #7780
    Astonishing Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Hated the finale.

    I guess D&D were big Sin City fans. As Daenarys dies the same way the woman in the red dress (The Customer's Always Right) and Ava Lord (A Dame To Kill For) do. Stabbed/shot in the heart while kissing a man. That's how they decided to end 9 years of a main character's journey? Talk about going out with a whimper.

    Jon knows that Targaryen's suffer when they're alone. D&D didn't write Jon trying to make any effort to curb Dany's worst impulses or reign her in.

    Why the savage Dothraki and the fiercely loyal Unsullied didn't immediately taken Jon's head and instead kept him prisoner is beyond reason.

    Bran becoming king, is like Arya killing the Night King. Out of left field and with no build-up or foreshadowing.

    So many things left unresolved and characters we never got to see in the end. I don't feel much like talking about GoT anymore. It's behind me.

    I bid you adieu.
    "And now my watch has ended".

  11. #7781
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Seriously?

    Well yeah if you take the view that Ned Stark was am idiot and a loser.

    There is NOTHING dishonorable about putting down a rabid dog. In my eyes, Jon's procrastination just makes him into a spineless wuss led around by his penis.
    Westeros is not bound by your definition of honor.

  12. #7782
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    I agree with the sentiment that the show was rushed and didn't make sense getting from where it started to how it turned out. Plus many characters were handed the idiot ball just to push Dany's mental stability. But the actual choices they made on how to end it? Totally legit and appropriate for Game of Thrones. Dany was not going to lose a pitched battle. Jon Snow ended her when she was vulnerable, and she died as a result of her own poor choices. Just like Robb Stark and Ned Stark before her. Would I have been on board for a battle? Of course. But this works too, thematically, narratively, dramatically. And by doing so he guaranteed he would never be chosen as King since the remaining lords had little stomach left for an avoidable fight with the Unsullied after years of devastation.

  13. #7783
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Mass murder of innocent people pretty much never makes sense. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen in fiction, or real life for that matter. If it needed to be logical, it wouldn't happen in either.

    If we were say talking about Twin Lannister I actually would agree it would need to make sense. He's an evil man, but he does things for a reason. Even if they are purely selfish reasons, they SHOULD make sense at least from his perspective. But he's not mad. Dany is, and that means her logic doesn't have to be bullet proof.

    To Dany, the people of Kings Landing didn't turn against Cersi and in fact sought her protect FROM Dany. Therefore, they were on Cersi's side rather than hers and shared their fate. It's flawed logic to you and me, but we're not mad.
    No Cersei committing mass murder makes sense from a story perspective because of the narrative that came before. Dany doing so doesn't make sense because of the narrative that came before. Dany was never mad before. Her threats were in fact based on logic.

    The people turned against Cersei when they rang the bells and surrendered. Dany could quite literally have told them to go in the Red Keep and drag Cersei out by the hair and they would have.

    The writing is what is flawed to me. This is where you and I differ. You keep trying to make it about the characters but no the issue for me is the writing. I have no problem with Dany going mad. I have a problem with the way the writers executed it.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  14. #7784
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Hated the finale.

    I guess D&D were big Sin City fans. As Daenarys dies the same way the woman in the red dress (The Customer's Always Right) and Ava Lord (A Dame To Kill For) do. Stabbed/shot in the heart while kissing a man. That's how they decided to end 9 years of a main character's journey? Talk about going out with a whimper.

    Jon knows that Targaryen's suffer when they're alone. D&D didn't write Jon trying to make any effort to curb Dany's worst impulses or reign her in.

    Why the savage Dothraki and the fiercely loyal Unsullied didn't immediately taken Jon's head and instead kept him prisoner is beyond reason.

    Bran becoming king, is like Arya killing the Night King. Out of left field and with no build-up or foreshadowing.

    So many things left unresolved and characters we never got to see in the end. I don't feel much like talking about GoT anymore. It's behind me.

    I bid you adieu.
    "And now my watch has ended".
    Honestly, I think Dany dying from Jon killing her while kissing is probably the most believable way Dany was going to be taken out. She wasn't going to be beaten straight up head on. Unless Bran maybe warged into the Dragon, no army on earth was going to be able to threaten her.

    Jon is probably the only person she trusts enough to get close enough to kill her, who would actually do it. Jon or Arya disquised as Jon I guess... but I imagine the scene would still play out pretty much the same at least until Drogon showed up.

  15. #7785
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theleviathan View Post
    Wasn't doubt about that the crux of Varys' betrayal?
    Nope. Varys betrayal was because he felt Jon would be a better ruler. Sure he had concerns about Dany but never to this level and those concerns likely go nowhere without him knowing about Jon's heritage.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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