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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #8086
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Gendry is apparently still "Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End" even after Dany's death judging by the meeting, so his being a bastard is apparently no longer relevant. Also he's the son of Robert (and the last time that Westeros knew any kind of sustained peace was under his reign and he was quite popular with the common folk), and a Targ descendant (as the Baratheon's are related to them), AND was raised amongst the commoners (thus perhaps gaining their support), AND who fought bravely against the White Walkers and has the respect of the Stark's, etc. Yeah he seems like a more logical choice than the robot with the vague powers that no one seems to fully understand who's done nothing of value for a long time now.
    I think people are selling Brans powers short as far as how useful they can be to a king. Him being able to find Drogon is just one small example of that. He can do things no one else can. His potential upside is massive.

    His shirt comings are of course his age and lack of experience, but he can get that in time. And they are compensated for by having capable advisors, who in the short term at least seem to be running things anyways.

  2. #8087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    1. Bran isn't exactly prime material - he is the youngest surviving Stark kid and is about 15 years old. He's just as new to being a 'high lord' as Gendry, plus he's younger, disabled and just plain weird.

    2. He doesn't abdicate anything by bending the knee, especially when that queen dies. Jon represented house Stark and bent the knee, but that doesn't mean the Starks abdicated anything. Cersei, for example, had zero claim on the throne as she was never in the line of succession, but that didn't stop her from being named Queen. The Starks and the Greyjoys allied with the Targaryens in taking down the Lannister on the throne, but once the head Targaryen has died, there's nothing to stop anyone from deciding whether or not to put a Baratheon back on the throne. Considering Robert's reign was relatively peaceful, both the lords and the people would welcome his son, bastard or not.

    3. Bran is the Three Eyed Raven who can't be lord of anything. The key to being a good King, as proven in the final episode, is who the King surrounds himself with. Bran pretty much made it clear that he's not really going to run anything and he's leaving it to the small council.

    With the way they left things at the end, just about anyone could have been named King since it was no longer being decided by succession or blood but by who the people and the lords would accept. Gendry would be more accepted by the people as a Baratheon, and just as able to rule (probably moreso since he'll probably spend more time in the here-and-now than Bran ) Keep the same small council, add Bran as his Master of Whispers and long live Gendry the Smith, first of his name, leader of the six kingdoms, etc.
    Unlike Gendry.

    1. Bran is a known highborn.

    2. Bran is the defacto last legitimate male of House Stark so he should be the Lord of Winterfell if he wants it.

    3. Bran's family has ties with virtually everyone in Westeros

    4. Bran is accepted by at least a decent portion of high lords to be an all knowing greenseer. There is no hard rule that the Three Eyed Raven can't be lord of anything.

    And yes Gendry absolutely abdicated the Baratheon line of seccession by bending the knee. Only a monarch can raise a bastard to highborn status. By accepting Daneary's raising him, he acknowledged her as monarch. If she is the monarch, then you have to concede the Baratheon position as monarch is not or no longer valid. If you don't concede the Baratheon claim to the throne, then you can't accept Dany as monarch, and then Dany can't raise Gendry to highborn status.

    So in the end Gendry was just one of many high lords, he was the newest high lord who had barely any connections that didn't rely on his friendship with the Starks, and it's unknown whether he even has consolidated his dominance over the Stormlands yet.

  3. #8088
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    1. Bran isn't exactly prime material - he is the youngest surviving Stark kid and is about 15 years old. He's just as new to being a 'high lord' as Gendry, plus he's younger, disabled and just plain weird.

    2. He doesn't abdicate anything by bending the knee, especially when that queen dies. Jon represented house Stark and bent the knee, but that doesn't mean the Starks abdicated anything. Cersei, for example, had zero claim on the throne as she was never in the line of succession, but that didn't stop her from being named Queen. The Starks and the Greyjoys allied with the Targaryens in taking down the Lannister on the throne, but once the head Targaryen has died, there's nothing to stop anyone from deciding whether or not to put a Baratheon back on the throne. Considering Robert's reign was relatively peaceful, both the lords and the people would welcome his son, bastard or not.

    3. Bran is the Three Eyed Raven who can't be lord of anything. The key to being a good King, as proven in the final episode, is who the King surrounds himself with. Bran pretty much made it clear that he's not really going to run anything and he's leaving it to the small council.

    With the way they left things at the end, just about anyone could have been named King since it was no longer being decided by succession or blood but by who the people and the lords would accept. Gendry would be more accepted by the people as a Baratheon, and just as able to rule (probably moreso since he'll probably spend more time in the here-and-now than Bran ) Keep the same small council, add Bran as his Master of Whispers and long live Gendry the Smith, first of his name, leader of the six kingdoms, etc.
    I saw the choice of Bran as a figurehead. A chance to go in a radically different direction that "breaks the wheel". None of the other candidates offered that.

    If the argument is "Bran didn't do anything to deserve to be king", I'd argue that's sorta the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Gendry is apparently still "Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End" even after Dany's death judging by the meeting, so his being a bastard is apparently no longer relevant. Also he's the son of Robert (and the last time that Westeros knew any kind of sustained peace was under his reign and he was quite popular with the common folk), and a Targ descendant (as the Baratheon's are related to them), AND was raised amongst the commoners (thus perhaps gaining their support), AND who fought bravely against the White Walkers and has the respect of the Stark's, etc. Yeah he seems like a more logical choice than the robot with the vague powers that no one seems to fully understand who's done nothing of value for a long time now.
    The last few people in the Baratheon line were Robert who was a terrible king that plunged the realm into bankruptcy and it was deestablizing long before his death, Joffrey who was a psycho, Tommen who was weak and let the Sparrows take over the capital, and Cersei who was a tyrant. The last few people in the Targaryan line were the Mad King who was a psycho, and Dany who burned down King's Landing.

    Gendry would never be a good choice if the goal was to pick someone who would be good at the job and not just based off last names that actually pissed everyone off by this point.

    Gendry was an unknown until literally a month before this (only really Davos and Melisdandre knew prior to him showing up at Winterfell), everyone knew Bran Stark. He never led anything, Bran at least led Winterfell for a period while Robb was off at war. He has no connections in Westeros being so new, Bran is family with the Starks, Tully's and Arryn's, the brother of the Lady of the Iron Islands died defending him, and even Gendry would be somewhat loyal to the Stark name, even Tyrion who has the most prominent voice in the Westerlands had accepted Bran as the Three Eye'd Raven.

    Being raised amongst commoners wouldn't mean that much. You need the nobility to accept him, not the commoners. The commoners have no say. If you say Gendry fought bravely, Bran literally used himself as bait so they could kill the Night King. There's no way Gendry has more respect from the Starks than Bran.

    The only thing Gendry had going for him is his last name and that doesn't count for much anymore.

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    Robert's reign was also the last king under which the realm knew any kind of sustained peace. Also what the commoners thing IS important now considering that a huge chunk of the nobility has been decimated and Westeros has been ravaged by years of war. They're needed more than ever.

    Bran did nothing of value this season, he overtly said that he "couldn't be lord of anything," most people have no idea what the TER even is, and Tyrion's word logically shouldn't count for much at this point. Not only has he not made a good decision in 2 seasons, but he was one of Dany's most loyal supporters up until the very end, to the point of selling out his best friend (who saved his life) to her and watching him get burned alive by dragon fire.

  6. #8091
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    Bran is mostly a figurehead who will use his powers to try to steer things in the right direction while the small council basically runs things, which is pretty much how things were run for a long period. Robert didn't really govern, leaving most of that to Robert Aryn, the Mad King also left most of the governing to Tywin Lannister, and Tywin basically ran the government for both Joffrey and Tommen until Tyrion killed him.

    More important is the idea that the king will no longer be a hereditary position but will be chosen from the various noble houses by the noble houses each generation. A democracy of the elites.

  7. #8092
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    In the least, I don't think it's a problem for Tyrion yet. He's killed his father some time ago, the the only ones broken up about it are his family (kinda). And for the most part he's done pretty well for himself since them.
    He wasnt trying to lead the Rock. Others outside the Rock respect him mainly because he opposed his family. That does not mean the people of the Rock respect a Kinslayer.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  8. #8093
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Unlike Gendry.

    1. Bran is a known highborn.

    2. Bran is the defacto last legitimate male of House Stark so he should be the Lord of Winterfell if he wants it.

    3. Bran's family has ties with virtually everyone in Westeros

    4. Bran is accepted by at least a decent portion of high lords to be an all knowing greenseer. There is no hard rule that the Three Eyed Raven can't be lord of anything.

    And yes Gendry absolutely abdicated the Baratheon line of seccession by bending the knee. Only a monarch can raise a bastard to highborn status. By accepting Daneary's raising him, he acknowledged her as monarch. If she is the monarch, then you have to concede the Baratheon position as monarch is not or no longer valid. If you don't concede the Baratheon claim to the throne, then you can't accept Dany as monarch, and then Dany can't raise Gendry to highborn status.

    So in the end Gendry was just one of many high lords, he was the newest high lord who had barely any connections that didn't rely on his friendship with the Starks, and it's unknown whether he even has consolidated his dominance over the Stormlands yet.
    Gendry is the last living Targ as well though. So his bending the knee as a Baratheon is irrelevant.

    Dany is dead and Jon took the black. Gendry legally has the best claim to the throne as he is cousins with Dany.

    Once it is known that Joffery, Tommen were Jamie's bastards, Gendry is now descended from the last 3 rightful Monarchs ie Dany, Robert and the Mad King.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-26-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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  9. #8094
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Variant,

    1. A leader doesn't just leave their land with no concern for who rules in her stead. Dany put Daario in charge for example. So I think it is far more logical to assume Ellaria put someone in charge while she was gone that is aligned with her. I am not hyping Dorne as a significant player. I am moreso pointing out if Dorne and Yarra join Greyworm, Sansa's position is incredibly weak. Let's be real, the Starks are really the only ones that are gung ho about saving Jon and with Greyworm already holding KL, he is better position to defend it than Sansa is to take it.

    2. You are overselling it because I see no logical reason for the people of the Reach to follow Bronn, Sansa or whoever else into battle. Especially since it was a Lannister that gave the Reach to Bronn to save his skin. I think they remain neutral or you have a split where some people fight for both sides. The point being the Reach is not some monolithic group that is just going to side with Sansa. There is no political savvy that overcomes Tyrion being a Lannister and Sansa being from the North and Bronn being a commoner elevated by a Lannister. And again the Iron Born have been shown to build boats faster than anyone and currently have the only Navy. So no, the Reach is not going to outbuild them. Nothing supports this. You can't just take the Iron Born's ability to build ships and then pretend it applies to everyone when the TV show has shown repeatedly shown the Iron Born have a particularly skill for it, when the only navy left shown on the show is the Iron Born, and when Bronn will have trouble keeping the populace under control much less building ships for him.

    3. Dany was still Queen by right of lineage and conquest. The Unsullied are fighting to punish her murderer. That is all. Greyworm has no say beyond the fact that he currently holds King's Landing and Jon. So the question is if Jon dies, who will support whom as Greyworm really has every legal right to execute Jon for regicide as commander of Dany's armies.

    4. Doesn't matter who rules Riverlands. They can't send their army to KL's without being attacked by Iron Islands in this scenario. It is just strategically a stupid decision as again Iron Islands are right off the coast of the Riverlands. You can't get around the geography.

    5. Tyrion was already the outcast of his family with little respect on the Rock because of Tywin's hatred of him. And I agree he is not really responsible for Jamie being an idiot but it was not his fault his mother died yet he was still blamed for it. My point is there will be people from the Rock that view Tyrion as bringing death where ever he does. He killed his Mom, his Dad and was Dany's right hand as she killed his brother and sister. So don't think he has much sway over the Rock at this moment realistically.

    6. Cersei brought a lot of the people from the surrounding towns into the city as that was the whole point of her using them as shields. So at this stage very doubtful the surrounding areas have the population to really be a threat. I am sure there are some but you talking about a largely scattered and terrified group of people.

    7. My point about revealing Jon is a Targ would be at the council prior to Jon dying. The point being it may then erode any support for his death. If we assume Greyworm killed him before the council and let's say threw his head at Sansa feet then his being a Targ would still be relevant as it may still result in people not being keen to support Greyworm as instead of a bastard killing the rightful air, Sansa can claim it was Jon merely asserting his rights as rightful heir over a usurper. So that would be Sansa's best play to erode support for Greyworm by Yarra or Dorne.
    1. We have no idea idea who the new prince of dorne is. For all we Know there was a power struggle, between different lords when news that Ellaria and sand snakes were killed. The fact is their deaths changed the calculus. I think it’s a mistake to persume automatically whoever this guy is, he’s sympathetic to Ellaria’s cause. And you keep saying Sansa’s position is weak? Um, she’s undoubtly in the strongest position post-Dany than any other character. How is that even a debate? All 7 kingdoms have been devastated by war, some more than others. But with Dany and Drogon no longer a factor. The alliance between the North, Vale, and the Riverlands do make up the strongest quasi-power in Westeros at wars end. And that power gives them leverage. I get the feeling you don't like Sansa as a character, and that's fine, I don't particularly like her either. But this isn't about liking, it's about realistically and dispassionately looking at who has the stronger position at the end of all of this.

    2. I’m not saying the reach with follow Sansa, or pledge allegiance to her. I can easily invision a scenario where Tyrion or Sansa make entreaties and alliances with surviving bannermen and cadet houses to help restore some order post Dany. We’ve had 8 seasons of GOT for godsakes, both them are veterans of the Game of Thrones and are probably the best players who are still alive. I repeated what does Greyworm know about politics or statecraft? All he does is follow Dany’s orders. By himself he knows nothing about westrosi culture nor really understand the nuances of its political landscape, and simply wouldn’t be able to survive in the long run on a continent he really knows nothing about. Which is evidently why he just left at the end.

    3. 4. Dany is dead. And if they kill Jon, great they got justice for her. I still think its bad writing that he didn’t kill Jon. Although someone here mentioned Grey worm probably thought in the end it just wasn’t worth the consequences.
    Ironborn’s fleet is devastated. It’s not like they just lost ships. They lost experienced captains, Sailors and fighting men (and they don't have a large population to begin with). And what’s left of their tattered fleet, the idea that Yarra is going to be attacking or raiding anyone is absolutely laughable. They're not the only naval power in westeros, and they're not the only one who can rebuild. And mind you they're going to need resources to rebuild those ships: lumber, stone, and metal. Resources that the Iron Isles are not rich in. If anything her position is probably the weakest of all the characters Post-Dany. With Dany dead, Yarra essentially lost her one ally. Not to mention the Ironmen were also fighting a civil war, she’ll be busy trying to solidify her authority against what’s left of Euron’s supporters. The Riverlands at least have the north and the vale for support in both resources and in troops. If anything it'll make sense for Yarra for wanting to make alliances and trade deals with her neighbors or at least having cordial relations with them for the short/medium term.

    5. If anything Dany will be blamed for Cersie's and Jaimie's death, she lead the force that literally burned down a city. Whether Tyrion will be blamed by proxy, I think that's an open question. He did resign as hand to the queen and was taken prisoner to be executed, so that will likely be known as well. So him getting all the blame is debatable. He will be the Lord of Casterly Rock. I’m not saying it’ll happen instantly, but it will eventually happen. He’s the only surviving Lannister left, and quite frankly the only person competent and clever enough to do it. But again I don’t find Tyrion’s crimes to be any more egregious compared to what other members of that family has done. So I don’t feel that’s going to be an issue long term.

    6. I’m sure we can agree a lot of people were burned alive. I’m doubtful they got everyone in the Crownlands and packed them into King’s landing. lol, I mean there’s only so many people you can fit into a city right? There’s no doubt there were survivors, and I think it’s fair to say many of them didn’t stick around. So they would certainly spread word not just to the crownlands but to other places what happened.

    7. Hmmm. Thinking back. But didn’t Varys already sort-of did that? This was before the council to be sure - I'll need to rewatch the episode but we see him writing a message to Dorne. I think it’s safe to assume he wrote messages to other places in the seven kingdoms regarding Jon’s parentage. The scene seemed to imply that.
    Last edited by Variant; 05-26-2019 at 03:56 PM.

  10. #8095
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Gendry is the last living Targ as well though. So his bending the knee as a Baratheon is irrelevant.

    Dany is dead and Jon took the black. Gendry legally has the best claim to the throne as he is cousins with Dany.

    Once it is known that Joffery, Tommen were Jamie's bastards, Gendry is now descended from the last 3 rightful Monarchs ie Dany, Robert and the Mad King.
    Jon took the black after Bran was already king though, so by that point it's somewhat moot. Once Bran is king the wheel is broken and bloodlines don't matter. Prior to that, Gendrys claim might have been somewhat of a factor, but it's still behind Jons.

    At this point, everyone basically was willing to toss all that out and just pick someone. And Gendyr would work OKAY... but if you're in the pro-Stark Camp (and as luck would have it, the majority of the people there are), Bran is probably the better choice. He's guranteed to go easy on Jon, and very likely to go easy on Tyrion. Gendry owes Dany a dept, which may or may not adversely effect Jons fate.

  11. #8096
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Jon took the black after Bran was already king though, so by that point it's somewhat moot. Once Bran is king the wheel is broken and bloodlines don't matter. Prior to that, Gendrys claim might have been somewhat of a factor, but it's still behind Jons.

    At this point, everyone basically was willing to toss all that out and just pick someone. And Gendyr would work OKAY... but if you're in the pro-Stark Camp (and as luck would have it, the majority of the people there are), Bran is probably the better choice. He's guranteed to go easy on Jon, and very likely to go easy on Tyrion. Gendry owes Dany a dept, which may or may not adversely effect Jons fate.
    Just talking lineage. Gendry is 3rd in line after Dany and Jon.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  12. #8097
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    1. Yes we have no idea so we are free to speculate and I think the most logical speculation is that like Dany, Ellaria left someone in powet she can trust.

    2. As for Sansa, her position is strong with respect to Vale and Riverlands. It is weak with respect to rest of the Kingdoms. Greyworm is not trying to survive in Westeros. I expect him yo fight if Sansa attacks but ultimately it will be Dorne that rules KL not Greyworm.

    3.4. Yarra would only attack if Riverlands send soldiers to KL. She doesn't a full army to raid lightly defended positions. It is doubtful she left the Iron Islands if a civil war was still brewing. Her fleet is still strongest left.

    5. Yes Tyrion will be but I am saying he likely has zero ability at the present moment to get anyone from the Rock to fight for him. Their armies are all but gone and no one is going to be tripping over themselves to fight for the Kinslayer.

    6. I’m saying that the people left are hardly a threat. War with North will be over and Greyworm long gone before the people recover.

    7. We saw him writing messages but no evidence they were sent. He burned a letter when he heard soldiers coming. Whether that was original letter or another one is unclear. All we know is no one at the council mentions it which you would expect if they knew.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-26-2019 at 03:57 PM.
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    1. I think's it's just as logical that another Lord could've seized power. There are no Martells left. Ellaria Sand and the sand snakes plan failed miserably and they all died gruesome deaths. I just don't see this new Prince continuing their legacy and mistakes.

    2. The combined power of the North, the Vale and the Riverlands make them the strongest both political/military bloc in Westeros at war's end. Because every other place is either leaderless, divided, or still trying to establish order or rule.

    3.4. I simply don't see her attacking the Riverlands given the state of her forces and the state of the Iron Isles. In the short/medium term it just doesn't make sense for her to want to get into a quasi-conflict with her neighbors. Besides, if Yarra does anything to threaten Arya's family, she'll just assassinate her. She basically single handily poisoned all of House Frey. She could do the same thing again. She killed the Night King. Arya's plot armor cannot be denied, it's the most powerful force in GoT canon. The North wins.

    5. Oh I don't think there's zero possibility in the immediate. Lords/bannermen in the westerlands like anywhere else can be an opportunistic lot. Tyrion being the last Lannister and if it helps the position of certain bannermen to gain favor early. Not to mention Tyrion knows the westerlands, he'd would know which lords to talk to and which ones he'd probably want to avoid.

    6. I'm not saying they are a threat in the immediate term, I'm saying they'll spread the news of what happened which would make it politically difficult for the Unsullied to make any alliances IF they decided to stay for some reason.

    7. Well, I don't want to keep beating a dead horse on how bad the writing is. But yeah, That council scene, I think most people there pretty much knew of Jon's lineage at that point. I mean we know Sansa, Arya, Bran, Tyrion, Sam... etc knew about it. But literally no one brings it up. So yeah, it was what it was.
    Last edited by Variant; 05-26-2019 at 07:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    And yes Gendry absolutely abdicated the Baratheon line of seccession by bending the knee. Only a monarch can raise a bastard to highborn status. By accepting Daneary's raising him, he acknowledged her as monarch. If she is the monarch, then you have to concede the Baratheon position as monarch is not or no longer valid. If you don't concede the Baratheon claim to the throne, then you can't accept Dany as monarch, and then Dany can't raise Gendry to highborn status.
    Everyone there pledged allegiance to Dany as queen, so everyone there recognized Gendry's legitimization and raising to Lord of Storm's End. None of them would argue that Dany was not a monarch, just because they all made (understandable) errors in judgment in supporting her.

    The Targaryen claim to the throne is no longer relevant because there are no qualified or willing Targaryens to fill it. House Baratheon probably has a better bloodline claim to the dynastic succession than any of the surviving houses.

    I think Bran is an odd choice for king, but not a stupid one. As long as he doesn't abuse his abilities or use them to oppress people, and as long as he delegates power to people who know what they're doing, he'll probably do fine. I would have put Gendry on the throne if it was my story, but it's not. Guess it's up to me to get off my ass and write my own multi-million selling fantasy book series.

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    Another video that explains the problem with Tyrion


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