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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7936
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    This didn't answer my question though. Who are you saying he killed that was innocent or not for the greater good?

    It is what Bran hasn't done that is the issue. Bran knows about bad things that will happen and allows it to happen to apparently serve his ultimate destiny of being King. We don't know if it was for the greater good. You just assume it was. The only difference between his and Dany's messiah complex is that Dany had to actively take part in her quest for the throne while Bran just had to sit back and allow people to die that he could have possibly saved if he had spoken up.
    I certainly don't think Jon Arryn deserved to die.

    As far as Bran, firstly we don't necessarily know how much Bran knows or what level of ability he has to effect events. Secondly, even if he knows about it he's not the cause and not always able to even prevent it. And if his actions get save us from the Night King and Dany, then yeah... I'll happily assume they served the greater good.

    And the big differnce between Bran and Dany's messiah complex is that it doesn't motivate Bran to murder any innocent people in his way. That's a big enough enough difference to not sweep under the rug.

  2. #7937
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Shireen I would argue was a "saint".

  3. #7938
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    He was a sociopath.
    No he wasnt. You dont quite understand what a sociopath is if you think he was one. Its an antisocial mental disorder and a defining personality trait is that the person has to have antisocial behavior. LF was anything but. He was one of the most charismatic character and his ability to be social in almost any situation was his strength. Joffrey was sociopath. LF doesnt even compare

  4. #7939
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I certainly don't think Jon Arryn deserved to die.

    As far as Bran, firstly we don't necessarily know how much Bran knows or what level of ability he has to effect events. Secondly, even if he knows about it he's not the cause and not always able to even prevent it. And if his actions get save us from the Night King and Dany, then yeah... I'll happily assume they served the greater good.

    And the big differnce between Bran and Dany's messiah complex is that it doesn't motivate Bran to murder any innocent people in his way. That's a big enough enough difference to not sweep under the rug.
    Arryn was murdered by his wife not LF although of course LF persuaded her. Arryn was also not innocent. When Lannister forces raped Ella and murdered her children, Arryn argued it was necessary and it was his support of those murders that created the rift between he and Ned. As Hand of the King he failed to uphold his duty. His failure to punish Gregor and Amory is what caused the rift between Dorne. We saw the consequences of that rift and it wasn't pretty. Robert also elected not to punish Jamie for killing the Mad King and his failure to do so allowed for Cersei and Jamie to continue their incestuous affair which obviously cost countless lives.

    As for Bran, he was certainly responsible for Hodor's miserable life and death due to his using powers he wasn't capable of controlling at that point. Hodor was far more innocent than Arryn. Bran doesn't have to murder people because he knows which strings to pull. That is the benefit of being the 3 eyed Raven. Further Bran helped cause the NK threat as it was his actions that allowed the NK to penetrate the wards and kill the previous 3 eyed Raven.

    As for Dany, if he knew that Euron would attack and capture Missandei then he didn't save us from Dany, he helped create the monster than Dany became due to his inaction. If he knew Jon telling Sansa would lead to Varys betraying Dany then he didn't save us from Dany, he helped create the monster Dany became due to his inaction. For him to have actually saved us Dany, he would have had to warn Dany about Euron or warn Jon about telling Sansa because those actions would actually have potentially saved the people Dany burned to death. In the end, Bran saved no one from Dany. Jon did.

    Also not sure how I swept anything under the rug as I was the one that brought up the difference. I am saying that they are two sides of the same coin. Dany was a force of nature who due to possessing 3 dragons had the ability to actively carry out her messiah complex. Bran due to his being a cripple and possessing the power of the 3 eyed raven is on the opposite end of the spectrum. His messiah complex is just more subtle because his abilities are less aggressive. Think of it as Dany being Magneto and Bran being Professor X. Neither is really innocent and they both do questionable or bad things. One just goes about it more forcefully than the other due to the nature of their powers and resources. Although Professor X's motives were more defined in the comics than Bran's are here.

    None of these characters are really innocent. They all have things they could answer for which is why none of their deaths bother me. The issue is in how the story is told.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-23-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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  5. #7940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    No he wasnt. You dont quite understand what a sociopath is if you think he was one. Its an antisocial mental disorder and a defining personality trait is that the person has to have antisocial behavior. LF was anything but. He was one of the most charismatic character and his ability to be social in almost any situation was his strength. Joffrey was sociopath. LF doesnt even compare
    Being charismatic is a developer trait. A sociopath can learn a developed trait for self preservation. Ted Bundy was undoubtedly a sociopath and also incredibly charismatic. Littlefinger killed Lysa simply because he found her troublesome

  6. #7941
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    The fact they stayed means it wasn't just because of dragons. It was also because as you said they had no conflict for the 150 years without dragons. Therefore, to say it was only because of dragons is factually inaccurate. The dragons are the reason why they submitted. The reason why they stayed was because of peace. So again to say it was solely because of dragons is incorrect.

    As for Yarra, you are using your head canon to justify your answer. We don't know how they would have responded because Yarra didn't mention it. I don't watch a TV show so that you can tell me what you think happens in your head canon. I watch a TV show for the writers to do so and they introduced a major plot point and then abandoned it. It is stupid writing.

    Anyone can head canon. I find it odd that the Mad Queen granted their independence but yet we automatically assume Bran would not. Further, Tyrion and the Unsullied know what Dany promised and we saw how Greyworm is all about justice. Tyrion also supposedly is going to learn from his mistakes so not sure how that happens if he betrays what was promised to the Iron Islands as Hand of the King. He was Hand when she made the promise and he is Hand now. He already has screwed up royally and how can anyone accept his counsel or word in negotiations if it is known he advised his new King to disregard the promise his previous Queen made. A Kingdom has obligations even as its rulers change. If Tyrion is not going to tell Bran to honor what he knows was promised then he might as well throw his badge away again. And to deny Yarra while acquiescing to his sister gives the impression that Bran is as corrupt and untrustworthy as previous rulers.

    So my head canon is just as valid as your head canon and the fact that you and I have competing head canons is precisely why the shitty writers should have resolved it. You can't have a major kingdom ask for independence and it be granted with the knowledge of Tyrion and Greyworm and just drop it as a plot point simply because you stupidly decided to have a 6 episode season and show Tyrion playing with chairs.
    Thatís not head canon lol. Everything I said is supported by the books or show.

  7. #7942
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Arryn was murdered by his wife not LF although of course LF persuaded her. Arryn was also not innocent. When Lannister forces raped Ella and murdered her children, Arryn argued it was necessary and it was his support of those murders that created the rift between he and Ned. His failure to punish Gregor and Amory is what caused the rift between Dorne. We saw the consequences of that rift and it wasn't pretty. Robert also elected not to punish Jamie for killing the Mad King and his failure to do so allowed for Cersei and Jamie to continue their incestuous affair which obviously cost countless lives. These are not innocent men.

    As for Bran, he was certainly responsible for Hodor's miserable life and death due to his using powers he wasn't capable of controlling at that point. Hodor was far more innocent than Arryn. Bran doesn't have to murder people because he knows which strings to pull to achieve it without murder. That is the benefit of being the 3 eyed Raven. Further Bran helped cause the NK threat as it was his actions that allowed the NK to penetrate the wards and kill the previous 3 eyed Raven. As for Dany, if he knew that Euron would attack and capture Missandei then he didn't save us from Dany, he helped create the monster than Dany became due to his inaction. If he knew Jon telling Sansa would lead to Varys betraying Dany then he didn't save us from Dany, he helped create the monster Dany became due to his inaction. For him to have actually saved us Dany, he would have had to warn Dany about Euron or warn Jon about telling Sansa because those actions would actually have potentially saved the people Dany burned to death. In the end, Bran saved no one from Dany. Jon did.

    None of these characters are really innocent. They all have things they could answer for which is why none of their deaths bother me. The issue is in how the story is told.
    I'm not willing to give Little Finger a free pass simply because he didn't proverbally pull the trigger. It was an obvious plot by him to murder someone.

    You can certainly fault Bran for what happened to Hodor... though again I'd argue that serves the greater good. And it's not like he really could even control his powers at that point. You can argue Bran messed up, but that's pretty far removed from actually plotting to murder someone.

    As for blaming Bran for Dany going nuts or whatever... I don't think the idea is that Bran knows everything. And he certainly can't prevent every bad thing from happening. If Dany became a monster, that's not on Bran... that's on Dany.

  8. #7943
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    That’s not head canon lol. Everything I said is supported by the books or show.
    None of the below appears in the show. This is your head canon or speculation of what would have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post

    With Yara it doesn’t matter. They were never giving a culture that literally terrorizes the mainlands independence.They could have shown a fruitless argument but it didn’t matter in the long run because they wouldn’t have got it. And she just had a say in installing the new king. They could have had a huge political debate with everyone but the reality is of the current heads of state nearly all were aligned with the Stark’s and only Yara and the Dornish Prince were on the outside looking in. They would have lost that argument. Everyone knew it. So they didn’t need to show it
    Dany already gave it so to claim it was impossible is absurd. Tyrion and Greyworm was there for the promise. To claim they would simply disregard what Dany promised is absurd. All you are doing is stating what you think would happen not what actually happened so yes it is head canon. If I am wrong please point to the scene where the above was stated.

    You seem to be confused by the fact that canon is what happens in the show not what you imagine or infer may have happened had something been covered in the show. You already admitted Yarra's request was not covered in the show so it is not canon. You then said what you think what have happened so that is what makes it head canon because it is speculation arising from your head based on your interpretation of the show not something actually in the show itself.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-23-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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  9. #7944
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not willing to give Little Finger a free pass simply because he didn't proverbally pull the trigger. It was an obvious plot by him to murder someone.

    You can certainly fault Bran for what happened to Hodor... though again I'd argue that serves the greater good. And it's not like he really could even control his powers at that point. You can argue Bran messed up, but that's pretty far removed from actually plotting to murder someone.

    As for blaming Bran for Dany going nuts or whatever... I don't think the idea is that Bran knows everything. And he certainly can't prevent every bad thing from happening. If Dany became a monster, that's not on Bran... that's on Dany.
    Not giving him a free pass. I asked you who was innocent or not serving the greater good. Jon Arynn was not innocent. He was complicit in the rape and murder of people and he as Hand failed to punish it because the rape and murder were committed by people he was aligned with. So removing someone who violates their duty as upholder of justice can in fact be argued as serving the greater good. Again my argument is that all these people are assholes and murderers. Some are just more likeable assholes and murders than others. You have not put forth a convincing argument to support the idea that Jon Arryn was innocent or that his death did not serve the greater good. I was simply pointing out that LF did not kill Arryn because your response gave the impression he had. He was a conspirator in his murder for sure.

    What happened to Hodor can be said to serve the greater good but it is entirely possible he could have saved Bran while living a normal healthy life. His becoming mentally disabled was not required for him to save Bran. He could have grown up sane and still become great friends with Bran and perhaps even been more useful because Ned was encouraging him to learn fencing. For all we know GoT lost a hero because of Bran's reckless Warging as several people remarked about how strong and great Wyllis could have become. We we got instead was a watered down Hodor instead of perhaps the next great Northern hero.

    I am not blaming Bran for Dany going nuts. I am saying he didn't save anyone from Bran as you asserted. For him to have saved people, he would have had to stop her from going nuts which he did not do. So he saved no one. However, Dany is still responsible for her own actions but it is obvious the circumstances in one's life shapes one's actions.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-23-2019 at 10:09 AM.
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  10. #7945
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm not willing to give Little Finger a free pass simply because he didn't proverbally pull the trigger. It was an obvious plot by him to murder someone.

    You can certainly fault Bran for what happened to Hodor... though again I'd argue that serves the greater good. And it's not like he really could even control his powers at that point. You can argue Bran messed up, but that's pretty far removed from actually plotting to murder someone.

    As for blaming Bran for Dany going nuts or whatever... I don't think the idea is that Bran knows everything. And he certainly can't prevent every bad thing from happening. If Dany became a monster, that's not on Bran... that's on Dany.
    This is another place where the writers just sorta screwed up, imo. Bran says earlier he can't be lord of anything, yet when asked if he will be king, he made it clear that he knew that was going to happen and that that was why he was here.

    Those words certainly imply that he knew what was going to happen. In addition, there's no explanation as to how or why the northern army (which I didn't think there really was much of one at this point since they largely joined forces with Dany, but then again, we keep getting all those extra Dothraki and Unsullied, so I guess the North has to keep up ) showed up at the gates of Kings Landing. Who is left in King's Landing to call all of the lords together, let alone tell Sansa that the whole army is required to stalemate the re-spawning forces from across the sea? Dany's army holds what's left of King's Landing, and despite being on a rape and murder spree they quietly lock up the confessed killer of their messiah/queen. So Jon didn't do it. Tyrion is also locked up, so he didn't do it. Varys is dead, so I guess Davos must have taken it upon himself to write a letter to Sansa and tell her to bring the forces of the north to bear on King's Landing so Jon doesn't go down for regicide?

    Add these things together, and it sure points to Bran knowing exactly what was going to go down, just like he knew exactly where to sit so Arya could reach him in order to kill the Night King (he was never needed as 'bait' since it was already stated that the NK knew where he was). The more I thought about it, the more Bran comes across like a manipulative evil little bastard who let all this stuff happen just so he could get the throne.

    Now, it could be that he also knows that, in doing so, peace will be brought about by his 1000 year reign, but in the meantime, there's a lot of murdered people and one queen who didn't have to go insane if only he had reminded her to look for Euron's fleet, or warned her that Missandei could be plucked out of the sea in the midst of a pitched battle and held for ransom. Basically, there were a lot of ways he could have easily stopped Dany from travelling down the mad queen path, but chose not to so that things would be set up for him to take the throne.

  11. #7946
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    This is another place where the writers just sorta screwed up, imo. Bran says earlier he can't be lord of anything, yet when asked if he will be king, he made it clear that he knew that was going to happen and that that was why he was here.

    Those words certainly imply that he knew what was going to happen. In addition, there's no explanation as to how or why the northern army (which I didn't think there really was much of one at this point since they largely joined forces with Dany, but then again, we keep getting all those extra Dothraki and Unsullied, so I guess the North has to keep up ) showed up at the gates of Kings Landing. Who is left in King's Landing to call all of the lords together, let alone tell Sansa that the whole army is required to stalemate the re-spawning forces from across the sea.

    Add these things together, and it sure points to Bran knowing exactly what was going to go down, just like he knew exactly where to sit so Arya could reach him in order to kill the Night King (he was never needed as 'bait' since it was already stated that the NK knew where he was). The more I thought about it, the more Bran comes across like a manipulative evil little bastard who let all this stuff happen just so he could get the throne.

    Now, it could be that he also knows that, in doing so, peace will be brought about by his 1000 year reign, but in the meantime, there's a lot of murdered people and one queen who didn't have to go insane if only he had reminded her to look for Euron's fleet, or warned her that Missandei could be plucked out of the sea in the midst of a pitched battle and held for ransom. Basically, there were a lot of ways he could have easily stopped Dany from travelling down the mad queen path, but chose not to so that things would be set up for him to take the throne.
    It is just baffling we didn't get more Bran stuff to flesh him out if they knew he was gonna end up on the throne.

    Utterly baffling decision.
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  12. #7947
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    None of the bold appears in the show. This is your head canon or speculation of what would have happened.



    Dany already gave it so to claim it was impossible is absurd. Tyrion and Greyworm was there for the promise. To claim they would simply disregard would Dany promised is absurd. All you are doing is stating what you think would happen not what actually happened so yes it is head canon. If I am wrong please point to the scene where the above was stated.

    You seem to be confused by the fact that canon is what happens in the show not what you imagine or infer may have happened had something be covered in the show.
    Dany was not a resident of Westeros. Most people in Westeros have suffered under the pillaging of the IronBorn. They were not well liked. Especially by allies of House Stark and Tully. The majority of the houses left were either related to the Stark’s or close allies at this point. They would have been more willing to let them go independent, especially with the new king’s blessing, than the IronBorn.

    Those are facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    It is just baffling we didn't get more Bran stuff to flesh him out if they knew he was gonna end up on the throne.

    Utterly baffling decision.

    Tbf Martin is on record saying he finds Bran to be the most difficult character to write. His chapters also are very weak imo

  14. #7949
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Dany was not a resident of Westeros. Most people in Westeros have suffered under the pillaging of the IronBorn. They were not well liked. Especially by allies of House Stark and Tully. The majority of the houses left were either related to the Stark’s or close allies at this point. They would have been more willing to let them go independent, especially with the new king’s blessing, than the IronBorn.

    Those are facts.
    You are still speculating on what you think would happen. You again already admitted it was not in the show so it can't be canon.

    It is also fact that the decision is Bran's not the rest of the Lords. It is also fact that Tyrion who is his hand witnessed the promise made by Dany. It is also fact that the Unsullied who Greyworm controls is about justice and honor. It is also a fact that if promises are not upheld it hurts the reputation and credibility of your rule. It is also fact that Dany going mad does not change the fact Yarra and her Iron Born fulfilled their part of the the obligation. It is also fact that Theon died protecting Bran.

    So what we have here is competing facts and for you to claim you know for a fact that it would have gone a certain way is just categorically false. I am not saying things would have gone in Yarra's favor. I am saying the writers should have given us resolution. You are the one making claims and passing it off as fact. We don't know what would have happened because the writers didn't tell us.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-23-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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  15. #7950
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    This is another place where the writers just sorta screwed up, imo. Bran says earlier he can't be lord of anything, yet when asked if he will be king, he made it clear that he knew that was going to happen and that that was why he was here.

    Those words certainly imply that he knew what was going to happen. In addition, there's no explanation as to how or why the northern army (which I didn't think there really was much of one at this point since they largely joined forces with Dany, but then again, we keep getting all those extra Dothraki and Unsullied, so I guess the North has to keep up ) showed up at the gates of Kings Landing. Who is left in King's Landing to call all of the lords together, let alone tell Sansa that the whole army is required to stalemate the re-spawning forces from across the sea? Dany's army holds what's left of King's Landing, and despite being on a rape and murder spree they quietly lock up the confessed killer of their messiah/queen. So Jon didn't do it. Tyrion is also locked up, so he didn't do it. Varys is dead, so I guess Davos must have taken it upon himself to write a letter to Sansa and tell her to bring the forces of the north to bear on King's Landing so Jon doesn't go down for regicide?

    Add these things together, and it sure points to Bran knowing exactly what was going to go down, just like he knew exactly where to sit so Arya could reach him in order to kill the Night King (he was never needed as 'bait' since it was already stated that the NK knew where he was). The more I thought about it, the more Bran comes across like a manipulative evil little bastard who let all this stuff happen just so he could get the throne.

    Now, it could be that he also knows that, in doing so, peace will be brought about by his 1000 year reign, but in the meantime, there's a lot of murdered people and one queen who didn't have to go insane if only he had reminded her to look for Euron's fleet, or warned her that Missandei could be plucked out of the sea in the midst of a pitched battle and held for ransom. Basically, there were a lot of ways he could have easily stopped Dany from travelling down the mad queen path, but chose not to so that things would be set up for him to take the throne.
    The easy explanation is that when he said he coudn't be lord of anything, he didn't know at the time he would be king. Doesn't mean he didn't know later. I don't think he necessarily knows all things at all times. He might have learned things at some point in time without necessarily knowing them all along. Point being we don't exactly know what he knows or when he learned it, so blaming him for stuff like Dany going nuts is a bit of a stretch. He can't be held responsible for every bad thing that happens, or every bad decision everyone else makes simply because he potentially has the ability to MAYBE know about it in advance. I think it's arguably more dangerous if he were to decide to play god and go that route. That'll probably drive him nuts faster than even Dany. For him, less probably is more.

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