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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7996
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthon616 View Post
    I don't remember all the details of the scene (and don't care to watch it again), but I do specifically remember that Grey Worm is the one who attacked first, not Jon.

    As far as the Unsullied not killing civilians, I don't specifically recall seeing them kill civilians no, but I find it somewhat incredulous to think that they didn't.
    No I didn't say Jon attacked first. I was making the point that it is not like the surrendered soldiers just stood there and allowed themselves to be killed. They obviously fought back. My point was they would eventually attack because soldiers aren't going to just watch Dany burn civilians but think they are safe. So Greyworm correctly attacked them first before they came to their senses and attacked because Dany forced everyone's hand. Once she started the massacre, the surrendered soldiers were eventually going to have to fight.

    They made a point of showing the Northmen and Dorthraki raping and pillaging. That is in their nature. The Unsullied are more disciplined and frankly they don't have penises so they don't have a need to rape. So I think the intent was in fact to show that they stuck to fighting soldiers while the undisciplined Northmen and Dothraki did not.

    I mean if the Unsullied were killing civilians there would really be no reason for the Lords to trust them to attend a meeting as if they took part in murdering civilians then there is no logical reason for Greyworm to have kept Jon alive or not to simply slaughter the Lords at the meeting. In the end he is logical and reasonable. Not only did he spare Jon and the Lords, his final act is to sail to Naath so that he can honor Missandei by protecting her people from slavers. These are not the acts of a commander that would kill women and children for fun. In the end, he killed those soldiers because Dany's attack forced his hand. He executed those soldiers because Dany ordered it. He did not kill civilians, Jon, or the Lords because in the end he is reasonable.
    Last edited by remydat; 05-24-2019 at 05:29 AM.
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  2. #7997
    Ultimate Member MindofShadow's Avatar
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    Eh, Unsullied are basically programmed to obey, especially when it comes to battles.

    They did nothing wrong.

    If anything, they showed tremendous restraint not slaughtering Jon and whatever mediocre army the north had around after Dany was murked. If they had selfish ambitions, they could have rampaged. Especially with their ability to respawn after death
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  3. #7998
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    Quote Originally Posted by MindofShadow View Post
    Eh, Unsullied are basically programmed to obey, especially when it comes to battles.

    They did nothing wrong.

    If anything, they showed tremendous restraint not slaughtering Jon and whatever mediocre army the north had around after Dany was murked. If they had selfish ambitions, they could have rampaged. Especially with their ability to respawn after death
    The Northern Army accounted for at least half the troops. And that’s not counting how Euron’s first attack wiped out a good deal of them.

    Realistically if they killed Jon, they all start fighting and wipe each other out and everything was for nothing.

  4. #7999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    A few things on this "meme".

    If the Dothraki had bothered to you know, flank the Unsullied, rather than repeatedly charge a phalanx formation head on over and over (pretty stupid thing to do as light cavalry), they would not have held at Qohor. At all.

    The North Soldiers are actual soldiers.

    And really, they just delayed the army of dead for the rest to fall back. And being automatons, but with squishy stuff inside instead of gears and what not, of course they would hold a suicide position.

    And to the person saying, "they have the wall!" Drogon kind of blew a gaping hole in it. What's more, long spears are NOT ideal for holding walls. And not once do we see the Unsullied use things like bows or crossbows. So, yeah.
    It’s heavily implied that the Unsullied legend is overrated AF in the books. They almost never face real trained armies with armored and mounted knights. Essos isn’t a continent filled with feudal warlords who have mastered the art of warfare. Also it is heavily implied that Dany being kinder to them weakened them as Warriors.

  5. #8000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variant View Post
    Technically they don't have to scale the walls (Drogon did blew a big hole in it), they can just surround and besiege the city and starve them.

    While I found this entire season ridiculous, not to mention I thought that council scene was rather stupid all around. I'm not sure how the hell Greyworm gets to dictate anything to the Westrosi lords/ladies given the circumstance he's in. I found it funny how they were tyring to placate him. Dany is dead - and with that they lost Drogon. They have a city that's half burned to the ground. How much provisions do they have? How long could they hold out in a siege? I don't care how well trained or well disciplined they are. They are in a foreign land with a finite number of troops, while the houses of westeros can call up more men if need be - and where mostly every House sees them as an invading army. He's not exactly in a position of strength here.
    The Unsullied and Dothraki had the city, Dorne and the Iron Islands declared for Dany. Jon needed to be punishished. Nobody wanted a war but if Jon was set free they would have got one and then Dorne and the Ironborn probably support the cause. The easiest thing was to send Jon to the wall. And justice for the Queen was all they really cared about.

    Tyrion and Bran both knew that wasn’t a punishment for Jon. Jon willingly went to the Wall when he didn’t need to once and he was sick of fighting and his happiest days were up North. Giving Jon what would make him happiest anyways was a small price to pay for peacefully resolving the conflict and getting the invaders to leave and put Westeros back together.

    Also Greyworms’s position of strength was he had Jon Snow and could kill him whenever. He knew it would start a war so he basically said “sort your shit out and figure out how we punish him so we can all move on”.

  6. #8001
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Variant View Post
    Technically they don't have to scale the walls (Drogon did blew a big hole in it), they can just surround and besiege the city and starve them.

    While I found this entire season ridiculous, not to mention I thought that council scene was rather stupid all around. I'm not sure how the hell Greyworm gets to dictate anything to the Westrosi lords/ladies given the circumstance he's in. I found it funny how they were tyring to placate him. Dany is dead - and with that they lost Drogon. They have a city that's half burned to the ground. How much provisions do they have? How long could they hold out in a siege? I don't care how well trained or well disciplined they are. They are in a foreign land with a finite number of troops, while the houses of westeros can call up more men if need be - and where mostly every House sees them as an invading army. He's not exactly in a position of strength here.
    If this was about beating the Unsullied, yes the northerners probably could just starve them out. But it was about saving Jon. And that in theory could be accomolished long before the Unsullied starved. So they had enough of a bargaining chip with the north at least to talk things out, which Grey Worm was willing to do anyways.

    Though given how easily Grey Worm folded with Tyrion I'm pretty sure he wasn't willing to actually go to war over this anyways. He probably just wanted to leave by this point.

    Since Jon was likely okay with his punishment anyways, I think what we got was a compromise everyone was cool with.

  7. #8002
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    With Dorne and the Iron Islands, not even sure they can starve them out. Iron Islands has the last navy standing and if I recall, KL can be supplied food via the sea which was part of the reason it could withstand long sieges. With Iron Islands controlling the sea, most likely could hold out for a long period of time while the Northmen would be fighting a war away from home.

    Greyworm had them by the balls, pun intended.
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  8. #8003
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Thinking about this more. Gendry is also in a tough spot. Just made a Lord and so probably doesnt have a ton of loyalty yet and so how would it look if he sided with the North against the Queen that gave him his Lordship and showed a mercy Robert did not extend to her?

    So he may have to remain neutral given his conflicting loyalties and focus on securing his lands.
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  9. #8004
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    Grey Worm loved Missandei more than Daenerys. Burning the city and slaughtering prisoners probably sated his need for vengeance, since he is not a psychopath. At that point his #1 priority was fulfilling his promise to Missandei that the Unsullied would protect her people. If he killed Jon and forced a war with the Northmen, he would never be able to fulfill that promise. The Unsullied might beat Sansa's Northmen, but then they'd have to beat literally the entire adult population of Westeros, with no support whatsoever. Then he would have failed Missandei twice... failing to protect her, and failing to protect her homeland. He made the rational and much nobler choice.

  10. #8005
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    With Dorne and the Iron Islands, not even sure they can starve them out. Iron Islands has the last navy standing and if I recall, KL can be supplied food via the sea which was part of the reason it could withstand long sieges. With Iron Islands controlling the sea, most likely could hold out for a long period of time while the Northmen would be fighting a war away from home.

    Greyworm had them by the balls, pun intended.
    Honestly I very much doubt Dorne or the Iron Islands would agree to go to war with the North for m Grey Worm. Dany sure, but without Dany its not worth it. Hell, it wasn't even worth it for Grey Worm.

  11. #8006
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Honestly I very much doubt Dorne or the Iron Islands would agree to go to war with the North for m Grey Worm. Dany sure, but without Dany its not worth it. Hell, it wasn't even worth it for Grey Worm.
    Wouldnt be for Greyworm. It would be for Dany and the chance at independence. Dorne was the one Kingdom that withstood the Targs even longer than the North and Yarra was promised Independence by Dany.

    This is speculation of course if Greyworm insisted on killing Jon. Not saying it is the likely outcome.
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  12. #8007
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Wouldnt be for Greyworm. It would be for Dany and the chance at independence. Dorne was the one Kingdom that withstood the Targs even longer than the North and Yarra was promised Independence by Dany.

    This is speculation of course if Greyworm insisted on killing Jon. Not saying it is the likely outcome.
    Dany is dead, so there's no value in fighting for her anymore.

    And if they really want independence, then its probably easier to ask for it over going to war over it. A war over Jon Sbow for thrm simply wouldn't be worth it.

    Really the only wons at this point willing to go to war are the north. For everyone else, its pointless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Thinking about this more. Gendry is also in a tough spot. Just made a Lord and so probably doesnt have a ton of loyalty yet and so how would it look if he sided with the North against the Queen that gave him his Lordship and showed a mercy Robert did not extend to her?

    So he may have to remain neutral given his conflicting loyalties and focus on securing his lands.
    Honestly the smartest thing Dany did all show was give Gendry a lordship. The Baratheon line was her biggest lawful threat to the throne and by raising Gendry from bastard to Baratheon she was was able to get the new head of the House yo acknowledge her as Queen because it was the only way his title actually had validity.

  14. #8009
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Wouldnt be for Greyworm. It would be for Dany and the chance at independence. Dorne was the one Kingdom that withstood the Targs even longer than the North and Yarra was promised Independence by Dany.

    This is speculation of course if Greyworm insisted on killing Jon. Not saying it is the likely outcome.

    I think by that point they were all just looking for a resolution they could live without they either wanted the okay to execute Jon without repercussions or something that would satisfy them. Should have just castrated Jon and moved on

  15. #8010
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Some Youtubes I was watching say JOrah originally was actually supposed to survive, but they changed it.

    I imagine if he had survived, he would have been against what Dany was doing and probably would have tried to talke her out of it. Or talk to Jon into trying to talk her out of it. It would almost be like having 2 Jon Snows in all those scenes. But he would absolutely NOT be down with killing her.

    Jorah almost is better off dying, if indeed the plan was at one point to see him survive. I think he'd rather die protecting her at Winterfell than live to see her become this monster.
    He had a fitting ending. But if he was the one to put down his Khaleesi, it would be much more powerful.
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