Game of Thrones

[Iron Fist]

I think that people accept that. Tyrion, Dany, Jon, Margaery, Olenna, etc. None of them are "purely good," even Arya isn't by this point. But they all have their fans. But if you go too far with it, then you're left with a bunch of characters that practically no one can root for. For instance, now the Stannis vs. Boltons conflics is between:

-The Bolton's-Who are vile rapists/murderers who like to flay people alive.
-Stannis-A religious nutcase (on the show, less so in the books) who burns people alive for crazy reasons, including his own sweet, innocent daughter.

It's kind of hard to care who wins this now, I kind of want them ALL to die at this point.

They get you rooting for them by the extended characters who would die if certain sides lost. If the Boltons win then Davos dies and Sansa gets raped some more. If Stannis wins then Fat Walda, Theon and Ramsay die and Sansa's position is uncertain.

[JBatmanFan05]

Tywin didn't make mistakes that got him killed? It's only because of Varys and Jaime that he's dead, and that's not something Tywin ever put in motion.

Not accepting Tyrion was Tywin's mistake in Game of Thrones, he took his hate too far. Tyrion gave off so many signs that he was the one Tywin should have trusted with the family's future. But Tywin was so shallow and so unfair to Tyrion over something Tyrion was not responsible for. Tyrion cultivated true friends and love...the two things that propelled Varys and Jaime to free him, causing Tywin to die.

[AndrewCrossett]

Sansa has set a Roose vs. Ramsay scenario in motion by planting the seed of paranoia in Ramsay's mind about Walda's baby. But Ramsay is smart enough to know that if he wants to be proactive about it, his choices are:

A) Have Walda and her fetus murdered. Since Roose is no fool, and Ramsay has already brought up the subject of the succession, Roose will immediately know Ramsay was behind it no matter how well Ramsay tries to cover his tracks. That likely gets Ramsay killed, and disowned even if he manages to escape death at his father's hands. It would also likely cost the Boltons the support of the Freys.

B) Have Roose himself murdered. That way Ramsay immediately becomes Lord Bolton, and he doesn't have to care about Walda's kid.

Then Sansa kills Ramsay by putting that corkscrew in his throat while he's distracted during sex, Stannis overruns Winterfell and kills the pregnant Walda, and the House of Bolton is no more. Nobody mourns.

[Jmacq1]

Robb Stark made two major mistakes that cost him his place in the War of Five Kings, and one minor one:

Major 1: He broke his marriage contract with the Freys. Pretty obvious as to how that one blue up in his face.

Major 2: He didn't let Edmure Tully in on his plans to trap the Lannister army in the Riverlands. As a result, Edmure fought the Lannisters (and won) instead of letting them maneuver to where Robb could encircle and ambush them. If Robb could have done that, all the politics in the world wouldn't have allowed the Lannisters to claim victory, as they wouldn't have the military might to back up the political maneuvers and Robb's allies/followers wouldn't have been so willing to turn on him.

Minor 1: Killing Lord Karstark. Robb could have either held him hostage or simply pardoned him in exchange for him swearing his blood feud was ended, though of course if he'd done the latter he wouldn't be Robb Stark. Losing the Karstarks was pretty major, but ultimately it was more like another nail in the coffin compared to the two above.

Robb's greatest weakness was waffling between trusting people too much (Roose, Walder Frey, and even Catelyn herself) and not trusting them enough (Edmure).

[Iron Fist]

Not accepting Tyrion was Tywin's mistake in Game of Thrones, he took his hate too far. Tyrion gave off so many signs that he was the one Tywin should have trusted with the family's future with. But Tywin was so shallow and so unfair to Tyrion over something Tyrion was not responsible for. Tyrion cultivated true friends and love...the two things that propelled Varys and Jaime to free him, causing Tywin to die.

Tyrion is a dwarf that killed his wife. Dwarves in Westeros society are a sign of divine judgement on the house, and it's kinda true considering his killing his mother and Tywin and probably his siblings later will be the downfall of that house.

And it seems Tywin hated Tyrion on top of the above reasons, because he's the most like Tywin.

Sansa has set a Roose vs. Ramsay scenario in motion by planting the seed of paranoia in Ramsay's mind about Walda's baby. But Ramsay is smart enough to know that if he wants to be proactive about it, his choices are:

A) Have Walda and her fetus murdered. Since Roose is no fool, and Ramsay has already brought up the subject of the succession, Roose will immediately know Ramsay was behind it no matter how well Ramsay tries to cover his tracks. That likely gets Ramsay killed, and disowned even if he manages to escape death at his father's hands. It would also likely cost the Boltons the support of the Freys.

B) Have Roose himself murdered. That way Ramsay immediately becomes Lord Bolton, and he doesn't have to care about Walda's kid.

Then Sansa kills Ramsay by putting that corkscrew in his throat while he's distracted during sex, Stannis overruns Winterfell and kills the pregnant Walda, and the House of Bolton is no more. Nobody mourns.

Oh, don't kill Walda, she's lovely. Just kill the baby when it's born.

I think B is most likely in the show. But to nitpick, the boltons don't really have an alliance with the frey's. they just seem to be civil to one another.

Robb Stark made two major mistakes that cost him his place in the War of Five Kings, and one minor one:

Major 1: He broke his marriage contract with the Freys. Pretty obvious as to how that one blue up in his face.

Major 2: He didn't let Edmure Tully in on his plans to trap the Lannister army in the Riverlands. As a result, Edmure fought the Lannisters (and won) instead of letting them maneuver to where Robb could encircle and ambush them. If Robb could have done that, all the politics in the world wouldn't have allowed the Lannisters to claim victory, as they wouldn't have the military might to back up the political maneuvers and Robb's allies/followers wouldn't have been so willing to turn on him.

Minor 1: Killing Lord Karstark. Robb could have either held him hostage or simply pardoned him in exchange for him swearing his blood feud was ended, though of course if he'd done the latter he wouldn't be Robb Stark. Losing the Karstarks was pretty major, but ultimately it was more like another nail in the coffin compared to the two above.

Robb's greatest weakness was waffling between trusting people too much (Roose, Walder Frey, and even Catelyn herself) and not trusting them enough (Edmure).

It's funny, two of his big mistakes come from him trying to be like his father. Honour gonna get ya killed.

[Paul W.]

Too chime in on the "there's no one to root for, they're all bad!" train of thought: I'm not rooting for *anyone*. (Although Tyrion is the man! Or half-man, whatever, go Tyrion.) I'm rooting for *storylines*. There are storylines that have been completely left out of the TV show, and several of those make me happy they're gone. Oldtown Maesters, Ironborn, Bran. Yay! Goodbye. There are some that are gone that I'd like to have seen, like " Stoneheart". But the real true storyline, the ones that matter are still there. Jon and the Wall. Arya and her journey of identity. Dany and her quest for the throne. The mystery of Jon's parentage. And, of course, THE ENDGAME. Muddy up another character, make them horrible human beings, kill someone innocent, blah, blah, blah. Oh well. Moving on. I know where I'd like to see the endgame lead me. So far, that's really starting to look like a STRONG possibility. Aside from some details, of course. And MAN, I can't wait to see the comeuppance delivered to a good half-dozen or so characters. THAT alone could keep me interested for the next season, and the endgame.

So, if the show isn't delivering on storyline for you, and you absolutely loathe all the characters, stop watching. I admit I'm not happy with some of the changes in the show, but it's mostly trivial. I see the violence and the ugliness as a sort of cartoonish hyperbole of fantasy fiction. Emphasis on "FICTION." As in, "no animals were hurt in the filming of this movie" fiction.

Can't wait for the season finale.

[JBatmanFan05]

Tyrion is a dwarf that killed his wife. Dwarves in Westeros society are a sign of divine judgement on the house, and it's kinda true considering his killing his mother and Tywin and probably his siblings later will be the downfall of that house.

And it seems Tywin hated Tyrion on top of the above reasons, because he's the most like Tywin.

You seem to take Tywin's side a bit much (and I really love Tywin too, but...). As far as the show, it was pretty clear that Tyrion had all the traits of a great wise ambitious Lannister leader, except deformity & being blamed for a death he was not responsible for. Tywin's hatred blinded him to all that. And he lost his life due to pushing Tyrion (and Tyrion's allies) to the brink.

[Jmacq1]

It's funny, two of his big mistakes come from him trying to be like his father. Honour gonna get ya killed.

I don't think the message is about honor getting people killed so much as inflexibility/inability to adapt. But even that theme gets stretched thin with certain events.

The flipside being that Starks are typically great warriors and do/did a good job ruling in the North. Their style "works" for the North...just puts them out of their element in the comparatively corrupt southern lands. The greatest mistake of the entire series is as simple as Ned Stark not being willing to say "no" when Robert Baratheon asked him to be Hand of the King.

But seriously, Westeros has been a barely-functioning mess even under the best of the Targaryens. Sure there were some periods that were relatively peaceful and prosperous, but for the most part there's a war every generation. Sometimes across generations.

[Iron Fist]

I don't think the message is about honor getting people killed so much as inflexibility/inability to adapt. But even that theme gets stretched thin with certain events.

Eh, not really. I mean Robb marries Jeyne after taking her virginity because it's the 'honourable thing to do' and it cost him the Frey's. Killing the Karstarks made him a kinslayer because Robb had to kill him and not compromise because it was the honourable thing to do.

Robb showed himself to be a versatile commander and half decent at politics but whenever he has big decisions he sometmes defaults to what would daddy do and those are the ones that got Robb killed.

You seem to take Tywin's side a bit much (and I really love Tywin too, but...). As far as the show, it was pretty clear that Tyrion had all the traits of a great wise ambitious Lannister leader, except deformity & being blamed for a death he was not responsible for. Tywin's hatred blinded him to all that. And he lost his life due to pushing Tyrion (and Tyrion's allies) to the brink.

Not really, I just find it easy to see their perspective. I think if you read the stuff about Tywin before his wife died, you'd see how Tyrion's birth really ruined him as a man.

I don't think it blinded him to all of it, he made him hand over Cersei. He gave Tyrion a chance to run the city and Tyrion did it with prostitute, savages and cut throats. Something Tywin finds really distasteful considering his own tenure as hand.

[Jmacq1]

Eh, not really. I mean Robb marries Jeyne after taking her virginity because it's the 'honourable thing to do' and it cost him the Frey's. Killing the Karstarks made him a kinslayer because Robb had to kill him and not compromise because it was the honourable thing to do.

Robb showed himself to be a versatile commander and half decent at politics but whenever he has big decisions he sometmes defaults to what would daddy do and those are the ones that got Robb killed.

That's Robb specifically, I'm speaking about major character deaths across the entire series. Yeah, it's Robb's inflexibility on his honor that gets him killed in the grand scheme (except on the show, which really annoyed me, because instead of Robb breaking the marriage vow for his sense of honor, he breaks it because "You're totally hotter than any Frey girl, let's bang!")

Makes me wonder how eager Robb would have been to weasel out of the vow if he'd ever seen/met Roslin ahead of time.

[JBatmanFan05]

Eh, not really. I mean Robb marries Jeyne after taking her virginity because it's the 'honourable thing to do' and it cost him the Frey's. Killing the Karstarks made him a kinslayer because Robb had to kill him and not compromise because it was the honourable thing to do.

Robb showed himself to be a versatile commander and half decent at politics but whenever he has big decisions he sometmes defaults to what would daddy do and those are the ones that got Robb killed.


Not really, I just find it easy to see their perspective. I think if you read the stuff about Tywin before his wife died, you'd see how Tyrion's birth really ruined him as a man.

I don't think it blinded him to all of it, he made him hand over Cersei. He gave Tyrion a chance to run the city and Tyrion did it with prostitute, savages and cut throats. Something Tywin finds really distasteful considering his own tenure as hand.

No, I know all about the effect of his wife's death. They say Tywin never smiled again after Joanna died (Aerys even wanted her), a big part of him died, his humanity. I can see Tywin's perspective, but even aside from the profound logical and moral injustice of blaming Tyrion, the shortsightedness of it and its possible ramifications should have been more Tywin's perspective and he, Tywin, normally knew that...he knew too much emotional thinking was the enemy (especially when you need people to run your family before you die). Tyrion was a wise winner, prostitutes and sellswords or not......the winner of Blackwater Bay. That deformed Tyrion did so much without his father's first name & counsel should have impressed Tywin even more. Tywin was more a man of results than style, and his hatred for Tyrion blinded him to Tyrion's gift for reading people and moving pieces around strategically to make things happen to advance the family's survival and power.

[Iron Fist]

That's Robb specifically, I'm speaking about major character deaths across the entire series. Yeah, it's Robb's inflexibility on his honor that gets him killed in the grand scheme (except on the show, which really annoyed me, because instead of Robb breaking the marriage vow for his sense of honor, he breaks it because "You're totally hotter than any Frey girl, let's bang!")

Makes me wonder how eager Robb would have been to weasel out of the vow if he'd ever seen/met Roslin ahead of time.

Oh I didn't mean honour getting you killed as a broader thing, just something limited to Ned and Robb.

No, I know all about the effect of his wife's death. They say Tywin never smiled again after Joanna died, a big part of him died, his humanity. I can see Tywin's perspective, but even aside from the profound moral injustice of blaming Tyrion, the shortsightedness of it and its possible ramifications should have been more Tywin's perspective and he, Tywin, normally knew that...he knew too much emotional thinking was the enemy. Tyrion was a wise winner, prostitutes and sellswords or not......the winner of Blackwater Bay. That deformed Tyrion did so much without his father's first name & counsel should have impressed Tywin even more. Tywin was more a man of results than style, and his hatred for Tyrion blinded him to Tyrion's gift for reading people and moving pieces around to make things happen to advance the family's survival and power.

Except Tyrion didn't win, her held the line so Tywin and the Tyrells could win. Tyrion was a small cog in a larger machine which was the battle of blackwater, and that's why he didn't get all the glory he thought he deserved. He gets more in the show than he does in the books, in the books Cersei takes credit for it all, though she sort of deserves credit since wildfire was her idea.

And Tyrion didn't really have enough time to achieve anything as hand. His only big contribution was wildfire in the ships and sending Mrycella to Dorne which backfired horribly.

[JBatmanFan05]

Oh I didn't mean honour getting you killed as a broader thing, just something limited to Ned and Robb.



Except Tyrion didn't win, her held the line so Tywin and the Tyrells could win. Tyrion was a small cog in a larger machine which was the battle of blackwater, and that's why he didn't get all the glory he thought he deserved. He gets more in the show than he does in the books, in the books Cersei takes credit for it all, though she sort of deserves credit since wildfire was her idea.

And Tyrion didn't really have enough time to achieve anything as hand. His only big contribution was wildfire in the ships and sending Mrycella to Dorne which backfired horribly.

Tyrion was a very big cog at the Blackwater. Tywin and the Tyrells would have rescued a dead royal family had all those ships not been destroyed like that, which both depleted the fleet & delayed the attack on the castle. Tywin and the Tyrells may not have even been able to enter the castle if not for Tyrion's moves.

Sending Mrycella to Dorne might have worked out well had Tywin been alive (by not sabotaging Tyrion) to develop that future with the Martells more.

[Iron Fist]

Tyrion was a big cog at the Blackwater. Tywin and the Tyrells would have rescued a dead royal family had all those ships not have been destroyed like that, which both depleted the fleet & delayed the attack on the castle.

Not really because they would have retreated inside the castle and lasted long enough for Tywin to show up. Stannis wouldnt be able to siege it in time. That was always Cersei's plan.

At word the smallfolk would have been slaughtered while all the lords and ladies survived inside the castle.

[JBatmanFan05]

Not really because they would have retreated inside the castle and lasted long enough for Tywin to show up. Stannis wouldnt be able to siege it in time. That was always Cersei's plan.

No, it was clear enough to me that the castle would have been seiged quickly with all those ships making it safe and sound and not their ruins clogging up the Bay. Every character that was not a Lannister seemed to realize how much Tyrion actually achieved. Cersei was planning suicide (she knew a miracle was needed) and thankfully Tyrion's plan worked.

We'll have to agree to disagree.