Game of Thrones

[stillanerd]

I hate to be "that guy," but if anyone thinks George R.R. Martin won't have Daenrys burn down King's Landing with Drogon, setting fire to soldiers and civilians alike, then you're in for a rude awakening. Even though we definitely argue that D&D botched the execution of Dany's heel turn, not only did GRRM plant the seeds early on in the books, it's a twist that totally aligns with A Song of Ice and Fire's stance against war, monarchy, and absolute power.

The issue with this (aside from it still being bad writing) is that they surrendered. If she had been burning King's Landing down before then (and then stopped at the bells) that would be consistent with that statement.

But instead she only did it AFTER the they surrendered, so this more like if she decided to kill everyone in Mereen because they had waited too long to turn on their masters.

Exactly! Which is why what she did is so horrific. She's arbitrarily deciding who's guilty and innocent based entirely upon how much they're willing to "bend the knee" to her. Her entire approach to ruling has always been "You're either with me or against me. You either join me or die. You either reconcognize me as your true queen, or it's fire and blood." We and her followers excused what otherwise sounds very much like the actions of villain because we and her followers convinced ourselves that Dany's enemies "deserved it." But the entire point George R.R. Martin and Game of Thrones is making is that no one "deserves it."

I'm also guessing during the finale, if Tyrion or Davos or Jon calls her on burning thousands of innocent civilians, she'll not only rationalize it with the whole, "They had their chance to rebel against Cersei long before I arrived," she may also argue that the deaths of countless women and children are on Cersei's hands because she decided to use them as human shields. She may even say that, by burning King's Landing, she now ensured that no one will dare stand against her or betray her--because now they know what will happen if they do. And if this sounds eerily familiar to real-life leaders, that's also the point.

[BroHomo]

Danny kept it real.

You kill Missandei and everybody's got to burn.


Circe should have died by fire tho.

So much truth

[ZeroBG82]

Tbf once Robert died it became irrelevant. Robert legitimately would have waged war on the North if he knew about Jon. A HUGE section of the first book is Ned being aborent over Robert's desire to kill Dany because she was a Targaryan and how much he hated the Lannisters for what happened with Rheagar's other kids. A big part of that is the Jon situation

This. So much this. The ONLY reason Robert didn't do more to have Dany murdered was Ned. Jorah stopped the one attempt that Ned couldn't get called off. Ned likely would have opposed murdering a young girl anyway, but his vehemence, his willingness to openly defy Robert and risk the King's wrath on that stand is because of Jon. Jon's sheer existence saved Dany's life. (Which, in retrospect, maybe not a good thing.)

Think about it. Robert was that obsessed over Dany, how much more would he have been over a male Targaryan heir? Jon would never, NEVER have been safe if Robert knew the truth before Jon could join the Night's Watch. The Watch was the only way out because it vacated Jon's claim to the throne. And Jon could never go back on his vow, because the punishment for abandoning the Watch was itself death. Thus, in the Watch it wouldn't matter that Jon was a Targaryan. Recall Master Aemon. Jon's true parentage stops being an issue the moment he takes his vow.

Except for that resurrection loophole nobody saw coming.

[MindofShadow]

Yeah that's not happening. Martin is FAMOUSLY disdainful of people writing stories in other authors worlds or with other authors characters. He believes that if you want to write you should create it yourself. He basically said he would never let anyone finish the books if something happened to him. Can't see him letting anyone touch that world

But isn't that exactly what Benioff & Weiss have been doing for several seasons?

Yep, exactly

I just don't know why he didn't just stay and help map out everything to the end.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Yep, exactly

I just don't know why he didn't just stay and help map out everything to the end.

He’s taking a decade to get Dany out of Mereen, you think he’s going to be able to map it out more than the outline of basic events he already has?

This is why I don’t come down hard on D&D. The actual writer can’t figure it out

[CRaymond]

The actual writer can’t figure it out

I still feel like the relationship between Jon and Dany should've started with the dragons responding to him, and her being curious to their behavior. He's short, quiet, and honorable, which is not her type. She needed a reason to examine his character and following her dragons' lead would've yielded a better romantic build. They could've done a Whole New World flight sequence in season 7's Dragonstone airspace.

[XPac]

I still feel like the relationship between Jon and Dany should've started with the dragons responding to him, and her being curious to their behavior. He's short, quiet, and honorable, which is not her type. She needed a reason to examine his character and following her dragons' lead would've yielded a better romantic build. They could've done a Whole New World flight sequence in season 7's Dragonstone airspace.

There's more to him than just being a quiet honorable man though. He's a warrior and a king, who was becoming somewhat of a hero up in the north battling mythical monsters. I think despite their differences in personality there are several parallels between them. Though he's nowhere near as powerful as she is, he's the closest thing she has to a peer. Add to the fact that he's not the worst thing in the world to look at, and I'd say he qualifies as a catch for even her.

But the Dragon affinity certainly did seal the deal. In hindsight she probably should have realized he was Targarean at that point.

[CRaymond]

But the Dragon affinity certainly did seal the deal. In hindsight she probably should have realized he was Targarean at that point.

Exactly. In retrospect, I wish all of S6 and S7 was cut differently, with THIS SCENE being the first damn scene of S7 E2. Yes, the King of the North needed to justify allying with the Mother of Dragons, and we needed to see her land on Dragonstone, but we sure as **** didn't need to see him chumming with Tyrion or whinging with Davos.

Cut away from Dany and Jon looking curiously at each other, and set the next scene from the ramparts, with Davos, Tyrion and Varys looking on and pensively crossing their fingers that the gamble for the two monarchs to first meet alone was the right choice-- "for the realm". Dany leaving Daario in order to free up the potential for marriage meant she knew FULL WELL there was a suitable consort from the Master of Whispers. The game was to get Snow to bend the knee BEFORE proposing marriage so she held the power in the relationship. She should've gone into S7 with Jon as the next step in her climb to the top.

Her dragons dying, her friends dying, her armies dying, her plans rotting on the vine, topped by the rejection of Jon is what pushed her into villain territory. Not romantic heartbreak, but utter devastating loneliness. "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing."

Season 7 might still have needed another episode or two, and Dany would've needed to come north and hang back at Eastwatch while Jon leads Team Snow Beyond the Wall.

[stargazer01]

the petition has over half a million signatures already... I wonder how HBO feel.. Lots of hate. Are Star Wars fans happy the GOT writers are making the next movies?

[XPac]

the petition has over half a million signatures already... I wonder how HBO feel.. Lots of hate. Are Star Wars fans happy the GOT writers are making the next movies?

I don't think petitions and online opinion really means much UNLESS it's accompanied by an actual drop in viewership. If viewership drops, then I don't imagine HBO will feel all that good about what's happening. But if ratings stay strong, then it could simply be a case of some people online making noise. It doens't necessarily reflect the opinions of the viewership in general.

I don't think petitions and online opinion really means much UNLESS it's accompanied by an actual drop in viewership. If viewership drops, then I don't imagine HBO will feel all that good about what's happening. But if ratings stay strong, then it could simply be a case of some people online making noise. It doens't necessarily reflect the opinions of the viewership in general.

HBO has their money already, not to mention the ratings went *up* after The Long Night, which people slammed. An additional 600,000 viewers for The Bells? No, they aren't going to trash it and re-do it.

[Gaelforce]

the petition has over half a million signatures already... I wonder how HBO feel.. Lots of hate. Are Star Wars fans happy the GOT writers are making the next movies?

This petition and others like them are pointless and just make fans of these movies/shows look terribly childish. I'm not crazy about how a lot of things end, but I'm not about to demand that the writer be fired and a new one hired just to suit what I prefer.

Martin made it clear from the start that this wasn't your 'happily ever after' story, and no one was safe. I didn't like *how* it was done, but I'm not all up in arms that it *was* done, and even if I were, that's on me.

To demand that an artist change their work (or, worse, that their bosses change their work) because they don't like it is just wrong on so many levels. I'm glad there's no way that Disney or HBO will ever consider these as legitimate options.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Y'all are too pessimistic about Winds of Winter. It definitely has a bigger chance of being released. We're definitely seeing it before 2025, if we don't have by then I'll agree with everyone.

[stargazer01]

I don't think petitions and online opinion really means much UNLESS it's accompanied by an actual drop in viewership. If viewership drops, then I don't imagine HBO will feel all that good about what's happening. But if ratings stay strong, then it could simply be a case of some people online making noise. It doens't necessarily reflect the opinions of the viewership in general.

I'm sure the ratings will stay strong next episode, because people want and need to know how it ends, but I really get the sense that A LOT of disappointment and not just fans, but also celebrities and the press. Last episode is the lowest rated one in terms of critical praise. I don't think this is how HBO wanted the last season of such a legendary show to be remembered.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

Preston Jacob the guy who is mocked all over the fan community because of how batshit insane his theories are is upset that his theories weren't confirmed. Shocking

That wasn't my takeaway lol

[stargazer01]

This petition and others like them are pointless and just make fans of these movies/shows look terribly childish. I'm not crazy about how a lot of things end, but I'm not about to demand that the writer be fired and a new one hired just to suit what I prefer.

Martin made it clear from the start that this wasn't your 'happily ever after' story, and no one was safe. I didn't like *how* it was done, but I'm not all up in arms that it *was* done, and even if I were, that's on me.

To demand that an artist change their work (or, worse, that their bosses change their work) because they don't like it is just wrong on so many levels. I'm glad there's no way that Disney or HBO will ever consider these as legitimate options.

I'm sure HBO don't like the bad press. And obviously they are not going to redo the season, but they know so many are very disappointed with the writing. I haven't even signed the petition because it's a waste of energy.