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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #6886
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think Danys expectation that the people in Kingslanding might revolt might in part be on Tyrion. He was likely selling the notion that the people of Kings Landing didn't support Cersi to motivate her NOT to kill feel the need to kill them. But that probably created an expectation that they would rally against Cersi, which they didn't. Because to them Cersi at least was the devil they knew. They had no particular reason to trust or like Dany especially, and were likely and unfairly prejudiced against her from the start because of the legacy of the Mad King.

    I think she simply didn't have a social or political understanding of the people she was conquering, and that worked against her. She needed to work on the PR aspects of her campaign more, but wasn't in the right frame of mind to do it. There was greater incentive in the North, where she fighting side by side with them against the Walkers. And where she was frankly trying to develop a good relationship with Jons family. But in KL there were no such bonds.
    But see that's the problem too. Dani's council was a bunch of dumb motherfuckas. People keep glossing over that. That was their job to help her figure it out.

  2. #6887
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    I don't even think she saw them as women and children, she was in full rage mode. For her they were targets, nothing else.
    Lightning Rider has hit it on the nose for me - she didn't go nuts in the middle of an emotional moment. She sat on that spire, watched what was going on, saw that the fight was over and was shown (again, at least to me) making a conscious decision to just go nuts on the place.

    Had she just continued her rampage once the battle began? I'm with you 100%, but when you show the woman taking a timeout to review the situation and *then* start slaughtering people, that's where the narrative loses me.

  3. #6888
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Is it any more rational than going to Qarth with virtually no leverage and simultaneously begging them o let her in but also saying that if they didn’t help her she would burn then to the ground as one of her many conquests once her dragons grew?

    Was it as rational as her plan to get an Unsullied army effectively being “ill trick him and have my dragon burn him”.?

    Or was it as rational as thinking she could just upset the balance of power in Mereen and it would go smoothly?

    Or as rational as thinking burning the male line of a Nobel house was going to go over well once they were no longer a threat?

    nope, she only executed the two openly defiant ones. After even offering to let them keep their lands and titles after they took up arms against her and had just helped sack her ally House Tyrell.

  4. #6889
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    nope, she only executed the two openly defiant ones. After even offering to let them keep their lands and titles after they took up arms against her and had just helped sack her ally House Tyrell.
    Actually, she only executed *one* of them.

    The other committed suicide, imo.

  5. #6890
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    That's what makes it more bitter. She should have died in season 5 or 6. And on top of that They were beating it into our heads for how long that all this infighting is pointless and the real threat is coming to kill them all.

    Then it’s “welp good thing that’s out of the way, back to regularly scheduled programming of the infighting we just told you was pointless”. They were setting it up to make characters like Cersei and Littlefinger look foolish and myopic by being solely obsessed with their scheming when none of it was going to matter and they were gonna die with everyone else, but then they basically validated them. Why should they have cared about the Night King?
    D&D like Lena so, we got a character that was kept past their experation date.

  6. #6891
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Danny ending as a mad queen was always a theory, way back. It's that the execution felt rushed and needed more developement. If we had a better execution, Daenerys going full Dresden on King's Landing would be an epic and tragic moment.

    My biggest complain is Jaime's developement which was full of zigg zagg, but i loved his moment with Tyrion. Hell, although i felt that Cercei's demise was sort of anti-climactic, it was a nice moment, seeing the twins that their love messed the whole Westeros being crushed by the world collapsing.

    The top moment was Cleganebowl.Hell, i laughed at Qyburn's death. He tried to stop the Cleganebowl and the hypetrain crushed him.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  7. #6892
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Actually, she only executed *one* of them.

    The other committed suicide, imo.
    Dickon had to die to motivate Sam to hate Dani. Or something.

    I mean I get wanting to die with your son, but why would Radyl put his son in that position to die with him? He should have surrendered.

  8. #6893
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    D&D like Lena so, we got a character that was kept past their experation date.
    I disagree (not with the 'liked Lena' part)

    Dany and Jon needed to overthrow *somebody*. If it's just an empty throne with nobody giving the orders, then there's no point to the whole process. Go to war against...who?

    If they kept her because they liked the actress, then I would think they would give her something to do for the last two seasons. I felt like they just kept Cersei around to give the 'good guys' a target; not just the armies, but the Hound and Arya as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor-of-Dragons View Post
    Dickon had to die to motivate Sam to hate Dani. Or something.

    I mean I get wanting to die with your son, but why would Radyl put his son in that position to die with him? He should have surrendered.
    They could have easily had Dickon get killed in the battle and had the same effect, though. Sam's brother and father both killed by Dany's dragon seems impetus enough.

  9. #6894
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabare View Post
    No one is innocent in Westeros.

    Of course it should be with her on the Iron throne. This show was never building up to a good ending, but at least it would be satisfying.

    She knows people wouldn’t love or trust her that’s what she did what she just did. I’m not going against the girl with Godzilla in her pocket.

    Out of all the terrible, horrible excuses for humanity I’ve had to sit through on this throw the one decent enough character trying to change things was Danny. The idiocy of Robert, the cruel and sadistic Geoffrey, Cersi, Ramsey and all the terrible terrible people I forgot.

    Danny gave Cersi multiple chances. This is on Cersi.

    Long live the Queen of Dragons
    I won't say everyone is completely innocent... but that doesn't mean that Dany at this point should get a free pass for murdering thousands of innocent women and children. That's too much to just sweep under the rug.

  10. #6895
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    But see that's the problem too. Dani's council was a bunch of dumb motherfuckas. People keep glossing over that. That was their job to help her figure it out.
    THeir council was to NOT murder everyone in Kings Landing. For all the mistakes Tyrion or Varys might have made, that wasn't one of them... and that was the one Dany in a moment of weakness ultiimately chose to ignore. And that will likley cost her the Iron Throne.

  11. #6896
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Part of me just wishes Dani went full Thanos after the battle of Winterfell.

    “I spent all my life fighting for this? Kingdoms run by squabbling children who couldn’t be bothered to show up when it mattered? Fuck this. Before I just wanted to rule the 7 kingdoms but now I’m gonna burn it to ash”

    Have her realize that everything she sacrificed and all she’s done to get to this point ultimately means nothing in this shit hole country be the final straw that pushes her over the edge.

  12. #6897
    Incredible Member Master Planner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Thinking about everything in retrospect. Cersei hasn't really been a player since season 5. That was the last time she had power and influence to flex. Cersei had nothing to do in season 6, until the Sept blew up. Season 7, Cersei had even less to do and even fewer interactions. Season 8 Cersei stands around a lot and sits sometimes. The King's Landing story dried up a long time ago. But D&D are big fans of Lena Heady the actress. So she stayed way past her sell by date.
    I could work better if we had Young Griff/Aegon Targaryen plot in the series and build a new Dance of Dragons with popular Aegon(son of Rhaegar), with the support of the people, the Dorne,the golden company and probably the Tyrells(i could see Tyrells or some of their vassals following Aegon) vs Daenerys, with 3 dragons, Dothakis(Huns/Mongols of ASOIAF) and the Iron Fleet with Victarion Greyjoy. It's pretty clear, in that setting, Danny would look as a monstrous conqueror.

    Cercei felt past her expiration date, or they messed her developement.
    " I am Loki Scar-Lip, Loki Skywalker, Loki Giant's Child, Loki Lie-Smith. I am Loki, who is fire and wit and hate. I am Loki. And I will be under an obligation to no one."

    Previously known as Nefarius

  13. #6898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Except Dany figured out that he saved her life to use her as a prop. He is never shown demonstrating one ounce of affection towards her. And if I wasn't clear, I wasn't saying Targaryens need to marry in the family, just that that was how Viserys saw it, especially since Dany was supposed to marry big brother first. The goal he has is to restore himself to the throne and to make more little Targaryens with his sister. He wanted to make sure the pure Targaryen bloodline continued, and for that, he needed the only remaining pure Targaryen.

    And yes, he sold her. Those were his words. People who use that phrase aren't pulling it out of thin air. He flat out says he sold his sister for his army and would, to paraphrase, let every Dothraki screw her if it got him what he wanted. There's a difference between a politically arranged marriage and selling your sister as a whore, and the total indifference he shows in being willing to have her abused by an entire barbaric tribe goes right to the heart of what he thinks of his sister and how she views herself by that point.

    It isn't that Dany is 'special' in that regard. Littlefinger was clearly a villain when he gave Sansa to Bolton because he was an evil shit. He knew full well what would happen to her. Viserys was pretty confident that he was handing his sister over to vile and vicious barbarians and was willing to see her gang raped. The difference isn't in Dany being special, it's in Viserys for being evil and cruel about the entire endeavor. He is hardly portrayed as a hero or a saint in the book, either.

    As to the 'understanding,' that was the problem. Both Jorah and Ilyrio flat out told him it was not a 'sale' or a 'trade' but a 'gift' and that he needed to be patient to get his gift in return. He is the only one who keeps referring to it like a horse-trade, and his petulance is what got him killed.

    Viserys was *repeatedly* taught about Dothraki customs. He just considered them beneath his contempt. He wasn't being set up when his patron and his sworn servant keep telling him that his idea was *not* how Dothraki custom works. Not only does he learn their customs, btw, he openly *flaunts* them. "Your custom says you can't shed blood here, but I can!"

    Yes, in the books she sees the good and the bad in him, and she always tries to appeal to the good. In exchange for trying, though, she has gotten nothing but further scorn and abuse. And again, you skip that whole 'I will cut that baby out of your belly' part - threaten any mother with the murder of their unborn child (and, consequently, with their own death) and that pretty much seals the deal. Despite the fact that he traded her away not caring how they would treat her, when it turns out that she found her place among them, all it did was make him jealous and angry. If he truly cared one whit for his sister, then he would not have responded with violence to her kindness. She lost her faith in him when she saw what he truly was. She had been in denial because she loved her brother. It is the absolute textbook definition of an abused wife who stays with her husband despite how badly he hurts her. She loved her brother and refused to see what a horrible man he had become, and it took Jorah to help open her eyes to this.

    Her story has a lot more depth than how you're portraying it.

    Dany and Jon is a different kettle of fish altogether and not at all like Viserys and Dany. She and Jon love one another, and she has never once treated him poorly, even after he rejects her. Viserys pretty much despised Dany for having been responsible for their mother's desk and treated her horribly.
    He didn’t save her life to use her as a prop. He legitimately thought he was going to get support from Targaryen loyalists, rebuild an army and then retake Westeros and Dany would be his bride to continue the pure Targaryen line. Not that she was ever necessary. He had no idea that long before that Illyrio and factions in Dorne were scheming to marry them both off to consolidate power. He kept her alive for the sake of the family.

    Again that’s how marriage works and their only supporter in Illyrio was the one who arranged that. You might as well say Catelyn was sold off. They were down to their last supporter and it was the only move they had.

    Listen I’m not saying Viserys was a good guy. I’m saying it’s alot more complicated and it’s easier to be sympathetic to the character you are designed to be more sympathetic to

  14. #6899
    Formerly Blackdragon6 Emperor-of-Dragons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    THeir council was to NOT murder everyone in Kings Landing. For all the mistakes Tyrion or Varys might have made, that wasn't one of them... and that was the one Dany in a moment of weakness ultiimately chose to ignore. And that will likley cost her the Iron Throne.
    No you said, and I quote

    I think she simply didn't have a social or political understanding of the people she was conquering, and that worked against her. She needed to work on the PR aspects of her campaign more,
    Which her council did not.

  15. #6900
    Astonishing Member AndrewCrossett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Planner View Post
    The top moment was Cleganebowl.Hell, i laughed at Qyburn's death. He tried to stop the Cleganebowl and the hypetrain crushed him.
    I thought that was kind of a funny moment myself. "Ser Gregor, obey your queen." "Shut it, poindexter." *Smack*

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