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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7261
    For honor... Madam-Shogun-Assassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post

    Also, the dragons proved to be more than useless against the White Walkers. Not only were they immune to dragon fire, but had already killed and turned one dragon with little loss (what, a few wights? something more than easily replaced?).
    That whole wight hunt was useless too tho.

  2. #7262
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    That whole wight hunt was useless too tho.
    Well, it convinced the hell out of Jamie. Cersei too, though she didn't bother to help them.

  3. #7263
    Astonishing Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    That whole wight hunt was useless too tho.
    The wight hunt needed to happen in order to lose a dragon to the walkers. And the dragon was necessary to bring down the wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She's definitely irredeemable NOW and deserves whatever she gets, but even getting to this point is stupid or at least needed to be developed better over a longer period of time.

    Reasoning aside, they both executed people for treason. Weren't the Tarly's the banner men of the Tyrell's, who were her allies, and they betrayed them in favor of Cersei? Doesn't that mean that they should have sworn loyalty to her through the Tyrell's?

    Yeah, a bunch of big dudes threatening a girl with horse rape is a fast way to make me not care when they get burned.

    IDK, during the battle itself Dany seemed more on the ball than Jon, not that that's saying much because there didn't seem to be a lot of strategy going into this period (yet most of them inexplicably survived). She also provided the dragons, which are the most useful weapons. He deserves credit for bringing them all together last season (despite the kidnapping a zombie plan he and Tyrion cooked up being incredibly stupid and ultimately pointless because Cersei just sat this one out), but hasn't done much this season besides say "She's my queen" or "Fall back!" in between bits of standing around with his mouth open. I feel bad for Harrington.



    A
    I feel you. He is supposed to be a Great War leader but has never won a single battle.

    Stannis saved him at Castle Black.

    Sansa saved him at the battle of the bastards.

    Arya saved him at Winterfell.

    He could control his own troops at Kings Landing.

    Basically it’s a choice between a psycho and a habitual loser, unless Sansa gets up and proves rape makes you a strong capable woman.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #7265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    That's tricky. They care what she did because they think it's terribly written, not the act itself. There's people who hate the heel turn in general yes, but I don't think the people who hate it don't hate just because she goes bad. Like it was previously mentioned these same people tend to have other gripes with this season too apart from the bells. Hell go back and read old posts from this thread (They go all the way back to season 4). People predicted that a terrible conclusion was coming.
    I think the big winner will nbe Martin himself, because a lot of people will buy the books just in the hope he can salvage this dumpster fire.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  6. #7266
    Fantastic Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I feel you. He is supposed to be a Great War leader but has never won a single battle.
    When has Jon ever been considered a great war leader as that implies tactics, strategies, etc. Jon is revered as an inspirational leader but I don't recall anyone ever thinking he was good at strategy.

  7. #7267
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    While the Tarlys were sworn to the Tyrells, that was before the last living member, an old woman hell bent on revenge, decided to help bring a foreign invader and her army of raping, pillaging, barbarians and automaton slave soldiers to their shores. Basically, she had betrayed Westeros first. And can't forget the advice she gave to Dany, "Be a dragon." The words of someone who didn't care about the long term prospects of Westeros, so long as Cersei suffered.

    So, yeah. Can't really hold that against the Tarlys.

    Also, the dragons proved to be more than useless against the White Walkers. Not only were they immune to dragon fire, but had already killed and turned one dragon with little loss (what, a few wights? something more than easily replaced?).
    He's not exactly wrong about the Dothraki horde, but he did help sack and rob his own countrymen to help Cersei finance her war, and did it partially for a power play. This queen blew up a ton of innocent people too, including most of the important Tyrells. And her claim is non-existent.
    Dany's ruthlessness is definitely frightening, but she's fighting a war, these are her enemies and she gave them options and would have allowed them to keep their titles and all that if they bent the knee, and they refused.

    The Night King was immune to fire, the regular zombies were not. It was an unwinnable battle if not for Arya being a magic ninja now, they were ALL screwed, but the dragons dealt a lot of heavy damage. And the main reason she lost one of her dragons is because she had to take them and bail out Jon after his dumbass kidnap a zombie plan went south.

    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    The wight hunt needed to happen in order to lose a dragon to the walkers. And the dragon was necessary to bring down the wall.
    Surely there were less dumb ways to do this than go on a suicide mission with a handful of guys? Primarily to convince Cersei, who predictably doesn't give a crap?
    Why does Tyrion inexplicably want to spare Cersei and think she can be reasoned with? I thought he was smart?

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I feel you. He is supposed to be a Great War leader but has never won a single battle.

    Stannis saved him at Castle Black.

    Sansa saved him at the battle of the bastards.

    Arya saved him at Winterfell.

    He could control his own troops at Kings Landing.

    Basically it’s a choice between a psycho and a habitual loser, unless Sansa gets up and proves rape makes you a strong capable woman.
    Yeah, I can't believe that line made it to screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think the big winner will nbe Martin himself, because a lot of people will buy the books just in the hope he can salvage this dumpster fire.
    Lol we will never see those books. Maybe Winter, but definitely not Spring.

    But I agree that he'd hit the story beats better. There's also the possibility that he told the show runners the endings, but that doesn't necessarily mean they followed his instructions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Well, it convinced the hell out of Jamie. Cersei too, though she didn't bother to help them.
    Well, convincing Jamie turned out to not really be worth it
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-18-2019 at 05:57 PM.

  8. #7268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam-Shogun-Assassin View Post
    That whole wight hunt was useless too tho.
    Tbh Dany didn't believe it until after she saw it. There's a good chance she doesn't march North

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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I think the big winner will nbe Martin himself, because a lot of people will buy the books just in the hope he can salvage this dumpster fire.
    Spoiler: IF you get the books, it'll be roughly the same thing only you'll get better details for why things are happening and it will be more cohesive and make better sense.

    -You'll likely get more internal monologues showing Dany's darker side.
    -Euron will probably kill a dragon with his horn.
    -Jon becoming King of the North will likely be a result of Robb's will
    -Cersei's ascent to the thrown will also have side effects showing how people hate her and distrust her for destroying the Sparrows and Tyrells.

    Things like that.

  10. #7270
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Spoiler: IF you get the books, it'll be roughly the same thing only you'll get better details for why things are happening and it will be more cohesive and make better sense.

    -You'll likely get more internal monologues showing Dany's darker side.
    -Euron will probably kill a dragon with his horn.
    -Jon becoming King of the North will likely be a result of Robb's will
    -Cersei's ascent to the thrown will also have side effects showing how people hate her and distrust her for destroying the Sparrows and Tyrells.

    Things like that.
    This will help tremendously.

    Because as ruthless as she can be towards those she perceives as enemies, Dany also freaked out when Drogon accidentally killed one kid and locked up the other two as reaction to that. As it stands, I think it would have been perfectly in character for her to ignore the bells and attack the Red Keep because she'd be hellbent on killing Cersei, but I need a lot more than what they offered for her to suddenly be ok with turning the fire on women and children. "Because she lost the coin toss!" isn't enough.

  11. #7271
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Attachment 82512

    I find it funny that we're meant to view Dany's cold, detached watching of Viserys getting killed as foreshadowing that she would go mad when Sansa had pretty much the same look on her face when she killed Ramsey via hungry dogs. They were both their abusers and both 100% deserved it, but Sansa isn't Mad. Viserys was also stupid enough to do this in front of Drogo and Dany knew he was fucked, she couldn't protect him anymore and he was beyond her help anyway. Do people think she could stop her husband at that point?




    I haven't watched the slave episodes in a while, and boy now I'm not really inclined to go back, so I can't comment on that one.

    She took out the Dothraki leaders before they could take her out, as far as I'm concerned. Didn't they threaten her with gang rape? Are we meant to view her wiping them out as being worse than some of the other things the other heroes have done? They are a society built around raping and pillaging, they have no reason to do as she asks but they are not in the business of asking for things nicely, so whatever.

    The Tarly's refused to take the Black when it was offered to them, so I guess Randyl thought he was too good to go despite forcing Same (who he was horribly abusive to) to go. Randyl also aided Cersei in taking out Dany's allies, he refused to bend the knee and refused the lifeline offered to him. Dany isn't here to make friends, she needs to send the message of her allies being avenged and she cannot appear weak, so this thoroughly unlikable character gets the fate he deserved. I feel Dickon was only written to die with him because if it was just Randyl nobody would bat an eye at what Dany did.

    Let's also remember Jon Snow executed a 10 year old by hanging for betraying him. Dany was always more ruthless than him when she dispatched her enemies, but his hands aren't clean either. He's also been a useless wet fart this season. No wonder she looked pissed when Tormund was singing his praises to the Northmen, he didn't do shit in the zombie battle.
    It's more apparant in the books but Dany watching Viserys die had alot more to do with her coming to the conclusion that he was not going to be a suitable king and that he was actually weak and couldn't command respect. By that point she didn't view Viserys as a threat or even a danger to her anymore despite his actions that day. She knew the Dothraki had her back. She just completely lost faith in him and viewed him as expendable. In the books you see more of her coming to this realization as she understands that the Dothraki are mocking him and Jorah basically telling her how bad a king Viserys would be. She absolutely could have saved him and he never would have been much of a threat, he needed them, and he had no leverage anymore. She just didn't think him worthy, so she let him die. She didn't view him as a real dragon like he claimed.

    You can't compare that to Sansa who was basically punishing a man who raped her, who had killed her brother, who had been skinning Northmen alive. That was capital punishment and that was to be expected. Viserys was more about him losing the respect of everyone and his threats not meaning anything anymore. Sansa also doesn't have a history of burning people alive or calling for the destruction of cities. She's shrewd and tactical now, but she has no aspirations to be a conquerer. Her biggest ambition is keeping the North independent. And she was totally fine with Jon being the one to rule it. She saw enough of the South.

    Also Dany legit crucified slave masters, one of the most brutal ways you can execute someone, without a second thought and we found out many were actually good or at least not terrible. And keep in mind, she only really went there to prove she could rule. She had no right to Slaver's Bay. She was proving a point and using the slavery and power structure there against itself to facilitate her conquests.

    As far as the Dothraki go. Yes they were probably going to rape her. Keep in mind, Jorah and Daario also snuck in their and were trying to sneak her out and she decided to stay so she could kill them. She wanted them dead because she wanted the Dothraki khalassar. So it wasn't entirely innocent. She could have just tried to escape at night.

    The Tarly's are also a different situation. They refused to take the black because they didn't acknowledge Dany as their queen. She wasn't. She literally just got to Westeros and she had only won a single real battle at that point. They were her prisoners. As Tyrion correctly pointed out, they could have stayed imprisoned. They were valuable lords with lots of trade value. Especially after the Reach was just lost. It was a stupid decision to burn them alive. Jamie didn't acknowledge Robb as King, but Robb and the North kept the Lannister prisoners around, and Robb put the Karstarks to death for harming them.

    Jon executed a 10 year old boy who was guilty of legit murdering him. He turned traitor on the Night's Watch, which is a crime punishable by death, which we saw Ned execute someone for that. Jon couldn't execute all the other men involved in his murder and then leave one alive because he was young. There's a bit of a difference between that, and murdering a POW because he wouldn't submit to you.

  12. #7272
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    When has Jon ever been considered a great war leader as that implies tactics, strategies, etc. Jon is revered as an inspirational leader but I don't recall anyone ever thinking he was good at strategy.
    Exactly.

    Gods this is depressing.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    This will help tremendously.

    Because as ruthless as she can be towards those she perceives as enemies, Dany also freaked out when Drogon accidentally killed one kid and locked up the other two as reaction to that. As it stands, I think it would have been perfectly in character for her to ignore the bells and attack the Red Keep because she'd be hellbent on killing Cersei, but I need a lot more than what they offered for her to suddenly be ok with turning the fire on women and children. "Because she lost the coin toss!" isn't enough.
    I agree it’s frakked up.

    I’ve seen her going dark ever since Jon arrived on Dragonstone. Looking back. Daenerys has always been full of hope and prinicipsl WHEN THINGS GO HER WAY. But when things start to go pear shaped she tends to revert to her default “fire and blood” factory setting.

    As stated above, she puts a lot of stake in her legitimate claim, then gets all whiny when it turns out she’s NOT the legitimate heir. She could have bent the knee as she asked zJon to but she lacks his humility. She’s too caught up in her own myth.

    And this is who the Targareyans are. Aegon invaded and conquered and burned alive anyone who wouldn’t submit. He wanted power and took it, with only Dorne having the balls to tell him and his sisters and their dragons to go frak themselves.

    Honestly they should probably kill Jon too. End the bloodline now. The world would be better for it.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-18-2019 at 06:55 PM.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  14. #7274
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She's definitely irredeemable NOW and deserves whatever she gets, but even getting to this point is stupid or at least needed to be developed better over a longer period of time.

    Reasoning aside, they both executed people for treason. Weren't the Tarly's the banner men of the Tyrell's, who were her allies, and they betrayed them in favor of Cersei? Doesn't that mean that they should have sworn loyalty to her through the Tyrell's?

    Yeah, a bunch of big dudes threatening a girl with horse rape is a fast way to make me not care when they get burned.

    IDK, during the battle itself Dany seemed more on the ball than Jon, not that that's saying much because there didn't seem to be a lot of strategy going into this period (yet most of them inexplicably survived). She also provided the dragons, which are the most useful weapons. He deserves credit for bringing them all together last season (despite the kidnapping a zombie plan he and Tyrion cooked up being incredibly stupid and ultimately pointless because Cersei just sat this one out), but hasn't done much this season besides say "She's my queen" or "Fall back!" in between bits of standing around with his mouth open. I feel bad for Harrington.



    A
    The zombie hunt wasn't just necessary to convince Cersi though ... it was necessary to convince Dany. Had she not seen the Walkers for her own eyes, she might not have sent her armies to the north to face them. Up to this point, it was only Jons word that any of that was real. To anyone that knows Jon that's usually enough... but she didn't yet.

  15. #7275
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    When has Jon ever been considered a great war leader as that implies tactics, strategies, etc. Jon is revered as an inspirational leader but I don't recall anyone ever thinking he was good at strategy.
    Yeah, people tend to be inspired by Jon. He's a good man that people like, trust and respect. And in some ways that's arguably more important than being a brillaint leader himself. A good honest man that people trust seems to be much harder to find than a clever one in Westeros.

    Best case scenario for Westeros probably would be Jon on the Iron Throne, with Sansa, Davos and Bran helping him. I don't think this will actually happen.. but I'm not sure any other combo could top it.

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