Game of Thrones

[AndrewCrossett]

Gregor Clegane will declare Cersei's innocence in a trial by comat.

I doubt that. Trial by combat may be part of the civil law, but the Sparrows are operating by ecclesiastical law... they're like the GoT version of the Spanish Inquisition. (And Cersei didn't expect them.)

I think they would view trial by combat as an unjust relic of the aristocratic rule they want to do away with. The richer and more influential the accused, the better fighter they can come up with. And I doubt the High Sparrow would endorse the idea that guilt and innocence are determined by who has the biggest sword.

So far, nobody has been arrested for anything they're not actually guilty of. (Whether the laws themselves are just or not is a different matter.)

[Iron Fist]

I doubt that. Trial by combat may be part of the civil law, but the Sparrows are operating by ecclesiastical law... they're like the GoT version of the Spanish Inquisition. (And Cersei didn't expect them.)

I think they would view trial by combat as an unjust relic of the aristocratic rule they want to do away with. The richer and more influential the accused, the better fighter they can come up with. And I doubt the High Sparrow would endorse the idea that guilt and innocence are determined by who has the biggest sword.

So far, nobody has been arrested for anything they're not actually guilty of. (Whether the laws themselves are just or not is a different matter.)

No, the Faith like trial by battle.

They see it as the gods will make the true party win, pretty much the same as it is in civil law. They believe in divine intervention.

But Cersei will have a trial by combat, unless they're going to depart from the books, again.

Your words: "He could just drive an entire army to the Sept and tear it down."

The Stark/Lannister scenario was an actual war in which negotiations could be made since each side had captives. If tearing down the Sept was Tywin's first move, the Faith Militant would have no leverage to wield anyways. Even then, that's still not an option. Such a course of action would result in the extinguishing of House Tyrell. They'd never allow that nor would Tywin attempt it, knowing the consequences. They'd have no true allies left outside of the House Bolton, who have their own problems. Besides, no one knows the High Sparrow's actual name. Don't underestimate that guy.

Not really, i mean the Sparrow made it clear he doesn't even like the sept lol.

Tywin doesn't care about the Tyrell's, but we're getting in odd territory for discussion now because in the show the Lannisters are broke so they need the Tyrells, so show Tywin and book Tywin would have very different opinions on this. Book Tywin wouldn't care that house Tyrell would fall into nothingness, if anything he'd lobby to absorb their lands into house Baratheon since Marg and Tommen are married and that's a win for the Lannisters.

Are referencing the theory that the Sparrow is Holland Reed?

[Jmacq1]

I doubt that. Trial by combat may be part of the civil law, but the Sparrows are operating by ecclesiastical law... they're like the GoT version of the Spanish Inquisition. (And Cersei didn't expect them.)

I think they would view trial by combat as an unjust relic of the aristocratic rule they want to do away with. The richer and more influential the accused, the better fighter they can come up with. And I doubt the High Sparrow would endorse the idea that guilt and innocence are determined by who has the biggest sword.

So far, nobody has been arrested for anything they're not actually guilty of. (Whether the laws themselves are just or not is a different matter.)

Recall that the whole point of trial by combat is that if the person is innocent, then "The Gods" will insure they or their champion wins and if they're guilty, they'll lose. Its' underpinnings are religious within the setting. So no, I don't think the religious fanatic Sparrows are going to have a problem with it, as they would firmly believe the Gods would punish the wicked so naturally there's no way a guilty person or their champion could win.

Personally, I believe that FrankenMountain is going to go off the rails if/when the Trial by Combat occurs and just start slaughtering everyone, possibly/probably including Tommen himself.

[toysoldier]

My favorite thing to speculate about Cersei's general stupidity is: What is Cersei's endgame? Does she even have one?

I think she may not. The best I can conclude is that she assumes she can manipulate things from the side. It does not seem to have occurred to her to take power herself. I do not imagine she would be a good leader anyway. When the Battle at Bywater happened, she went into full panic mode. She seems to only think two steps ahead. A smart person would have seen how foolish it was to put the High Septon in power and send him after the Tyrells. What would stop him from acting on what everyone knows about the Lannisters?

[Jmacq1]

I think she may not. The best I can conclude is that she assumes she can manipulate things from the side. It does not seem to have occurred to her to take power herself. I do not imagine she would be a good leader anyway. When the Battle at Bywater happened, she went into full panic mode. She seems to only think two steps ahead. A smart person would have seen how foolish it was to put the High Septon in power and send him after the Tyrells. What would stop him from acting on what everyone knows about the Lannisters?

Well, I think she knows Westeros' patriarchal society simply won't let her take power, though yes, she'd be a horrible ruler (as we've already seen). As they say in the book: Cersei thinks that she's "Tywin with tits" when in reality she isn't remotely that smart or competent.

[sneakyflute]

Why is Tommen just standing by as the Sparrows try to usurp the throne? He needs to have them all executed.

[lancerman]

Why is Tommen just standing by as the Sparrows try to usurp the throne? He needs to have them all executed.

He has very little allies. Most of Westeros is more loyal to the Faith than him. Cersei legitimized them. He's isn't strong enough to make an unpopular decision like that and withstand the consequences.

[Justice]

Tywin doesn't care about the Tyrell's, but we're getting in odd territory for discussion now because in the show the Lannisters are broke so they need the Tyrells, so show Tywin and book Tywin would have very different opinions on this. Book Tywin wouldn't care that house Tyrell would fall into nothingness, if anything he'd lobby to absorb their lands into house Baratheon since Marg and Tommen are married and that's a win for the Lannisters.

You're missing the point.

* Winterfell
House Stark: Enemy
House Bolton: Ally

* Pyke
House Greyjoy: Enemy

* Eyrie
House Arryn/House Baelish: Enemy/Ally

* Trident
House Tully: Enemy
House Frey: Neutral

* Dragonstone
House Baratheon (Stannis)

* Casterly Rock
House Lannister

* Storm's End:
House Baratheon (Stannis)

* Reach
House Tyrell: Ally

* Sunspear
House Martell: Enemy


Tywin couldn't absorb the Reach because Mace Tyrell is its Lord. He never passed the title to either of his children. Even if he were killed, there'd still be a war over it. House Bolton is busy dealing with Northern Houses who hate their guts and House Baratheon. Littlefinger is Lord Protector of the Eyrie, but the Lords there do not side with House Lannister. House Frey is an ally on paper, but he's never going to send troops outside of the Riverlands, unless its to the North. House Martell is just waiting to make their move.

Without House Tyrell, the Lannisters are completely alone, leaving them suspectible to attack.

Are referencing the theory that the Sparrow is Holland Reed?

Yup. There's no way Eddard gets killed and he's just sitting around, waiting for Jon to come to him.

[AndrewCrossett]

Recall that the whole point of trial by combat is that if the person is innocent, then "The Gods" will insure they or their champion wins and if they're guilty, they'll lose. Its' underpinnings are religious within the setting. So no, I don't think the religious fanatic Sparrows are going to have a problem with it, as they would firmly believe the Gods would punish the wicked so naturally there's no way a guilty person or their champion could win.

I would have thought that at some point in the 8,000 years of Westerosi legal history, some obviously guilty person would have won a trial by combat. But maybe "in the eyes of the gods" guilt isn't so simple a matter as whether the accused committed the crime or not... but whether they were justified in doing so in ways that perhaps only the gods can see.

Guh. It's probably no stupider than the idea of trial by a jury of the same people who elected Congress.

[Iron Fist]

You're missing the point.

* Winterfell
House Stark: Enemy
House Bolton: Ally

* Pyke
House Greyjoy: Enemy

* Eyrie
House Arryn/House Baelish: Enemy/Ally

* Trident
House Tully: Enemy
House Frey: Neutral

* Dragonstone
House Baratheon (Stannis)

* Casterly Rock
House Lannister

* Storm's End:
House Baratheon (Stannis)

* Reach
House Tyrell: Ally

* Sunspear
House Martell: Enemy

Tywin couldn't absorb the Reach because Mace Tyrell is its Lord. He never passed the title to either of his children. Even if he were killed, there'd still be a war over it. House Bolton is busy dealing with Northern Houses who hate their guts and House Baratheon. Littlefinger is Lord Protector of the Eyrie, but the Lords there do not side with House Lannister. House Frey is an ally on paper, but he's never going to send troops outside of the Riverlands, unless its to the North. House Martell is just waiting to make their move.

Without House Tyrell, the Lannisters are completely alone, leaving them suspectible to attack.

I didn't mean instantly, I meant that since there would be no more heirs (in the show) then Tywin could rig it that the marriage made Tommen the heir.

But there isn't really a force that can challenge the Lannisters. The Tyrell's are the closest thing they have to a threat. House Martell would be a serious threat but they seem to be sitting on their hands waiting for Dany/Aegon to show up.

Yup. There's no way Eddard gets killed and he's just sitting around, waiting for Jon to come to him.

I don't know, Holland Reed is kind of a big name, I don't see him being able to pull that off without being recognised.

Why is Tommen just standing by as the Sparrows try to usurp the throne? He needs to have them all executed.

The Sparrow isn't going after the throne, and if Tommen executed them then the small folk would revolt because the Sparrow is doing a lot of good in the city and the smallfolk adore him. The show has kind of glossed over this after his first appearance.

[Justice]

I didn't mean instantly, I meant that since there would be no more heirs (in the show) then Tywin could rig it that the marriage made Tommen the heir.

But there isn't really a force that can challenge the Lannisters. The Tyrell's are the closest thing they have to a threat. House Martell would be a serious threat but they seem to be sitting on their hands waiting for Dany/Aegon to show up.

Such a maneuver would still lead to war since he'd be the reason they lost their heirs. House Lannister isn't at all unstoppable. They're top dog solely because of their alliance with the Tyrells and everyone else is fighting each other. If not for that alliance, Stannis would've captured King's Landing. House Martell isn't sitting on their hands, waiting for anyone. Prince Doran simply isn't reckless. They have no alliances without anyone in Westeros and thus, couldn't challenge. Following the war, House Stark/House Arryn/House Tully/House Baratheon/House Lannister was an alliance that couldn't be touched. With everyone fractured since Robert's death, House Lannister/House Tyrell is the clear powerhouse, particularly with ruling Houses such as Stark, Arryn, and Tully being dispatched from within. Remove that alliance and the floodgates open back up again. Even if House Martell and House Baratheon were to fail, Littlefinger would gladly finish whatever was left.

I don't know, Holland Reed is kind of a big name, I don't see him being able to pull that off without being recognised.

Too big of a name and recognizable to who, exactly? No one is confirmed to have seen the man since the events of the books/show began outside of his children. House Reed never joined the War of Five Kings. He hasn't left his lands since Robert's Rebellion. And no one knows the High Sparrow's name.

[basbash99]

Just watched this episode last night - thought it was spectacular! I was thrilled to see the plot move past the books, finally.. the Hardhome battle at the end totally caught me off guard, and it was awesome. That ending where Jon and the last survivors slowly make their escape while the huge army of the undead stand silently with the night king was chilling.

Also liked the interactions between Tyrion and Daenerys, again a bit improvement over the characters' respective storylines in the books.

While I know that GRRM has supposedly outlined the rest of the plot to the show's producers/writers, watching this episode made me feel like the series may actually be able to wrap things up in a few seasons, whereas the last couple of books have convinced me that GRRM will never finish writing the story. Feels good to know I will get some closure after reading the novels (enjoyed the first three, the last two were increasingly chores to get through).

At this point, I think GRRM should let the show handle the "song of fire and ice" story and just do whatever world-building he wants in his writing. It seems clear to me he doesn't have much passion for concluding his epic, or at least doesn't feel much urgency for finishing. I've enjoyed his writing off and on for about 30 years (since his Sandkings story back in the 80s) but will refrain from reading any more of the novels until he finishes the entire series - don't think I am up for waiting 10 years between volumes as others have done.

[Paul W.]

Gregor Clegane will declare Cersei's innocence in a trial by combat.

I see this one following the book, and no spoilers on that.

[Paul W.]

But Cersei will have a trial by combat, unless they're going to depart from the books, again.

*DID* Cersei have trial by combat in the books? i seem to remember a *different* method of "atonement." Which I'm certain we'll get.

[Hiromi]

They haven't got to it yet, Dance of Dragons ended right as they set it up