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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7591

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    See "tricking" us into rooting for Dany when she was actually a villain would be clever, but if you're going to do that, you need to be consistent with it.

    I find it passing odd the show expects me to regard Dany's torching of Randyl Tarly as proof of her madness...but also cheer Arya cooking Walder Frey's sons into a pie and feeding it to him as bad-ass.
    Why am I supposed to see Dany killing Dothraki leaders as an example of how terrible she is...but Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to his hounds as justice?
    Or executing slave owners versus Jon Snow executing a begging and pleading Janos Slynt?

    Yes, Dany has done questionable things—usually to worse people. She has made mistakes—some she's been shown to regret.
    But so has every other heroic character in the show.

    So if Dany's journey was foreshadowing her slaughtering innocent people in King's Landing, when can we expect Arya to start butchering random innocent people for no reason? Was she not told she had a darkness in her and that she should close many eyes forever?
    Oh, right, apparently that was foreshadowing her saving the goddamn world from White Walkers!

    It's awfully late for the show to pull that kind of moralism. You can't have almost every hero engage in moral ambiguity just to suddenly declare, oh nope, it was only bad when Dany did it. It doesn't work that way. You have to be consistent with your framing.

    And...as others have already pointed out...it's a pretty big and sudden leap to go from burning slave-owners and marauding rapists to torching innocent civilians because...f*** it.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  2. #7592
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    As opposed to crucifying and burning people who were no longer a threat to her? You know historically two of the worst forms of murder in ever.
    Wait you trying to morally equate punishing slavers with burning innocent children? Truly odd. 163 slave children were crucified by the masters and she crucified 163 masters as justice. In the world they live in, that is entirely reasonable.

    As for burning, not sure if you referring to Tarleys but they fought a war and then refused to bend the knee. Should they have received cookies. Again not sure what that has to do with innocent children.

    This would be like saying because the government sentenced Ted Bundy to death, we should expect that they BBQ innocent children next.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  3. #7593
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    See "tricking" us into rooting for Dany when she was actually a villain would be clever, but if you're going to do that, you need to be consistent with it.

    I find it passing odd the show expects me to regard Dany's torching of Randyl Tarly as proof of her madness...but also cheer Arya cooking Walder Frey's sons into a pie and feeding it to him as bad-ass.
    Why am I supposed to see Dany killing Dothraki leaders as an example of how terrible she is...but Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to his hounds as justice?
    Or executing slave owners versus Jon Snow executing a begging and pleading Janos Slynt?

    Yes, Dany has done questionable things—usually to worse people. She has made mistakes—some she's been shown to regret.
    But so has every other heroic character in the show.

    So if Dany's journey was foreshadowing her slaughtering innocent people in King's Landing, when can we expect Arya to start butchering random innocent people for no reason? Was she not told she had a darkness in her and that she should close many eyes forever?
    Oh, right, apparently that was foreshadowing her saving the goddamn world from White Walkers!

    It's awfully late for the show to pull that kind of moralism. You can't have almost every hero engage in moral ambiguity just to suddenly declare, oh nope, it was only bad when Dany did it. It doesn't work that way. You have to be consistent with your framing.

    And...as others have already pointed out...it's a pretty big and sudden leap to go from burning slave-owners and marauding rapists to torching innocent civilians because...f*** it.
    Exactly. Nothing Dany did was out of the realm of what other characters had done until she decided inexplicably to stir fry children.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  4. #7594
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Not sure how this correlates to burning innocent children when the enemy has already surrendered.

    This would be like saying I got an award at work today for employee of the month so the stage was set for me to murder my entire office several years later. I can imagine my coworkers now saying, "We should have never made him employee of the month 7 years ago. It set the stage for him killing us today." SMH!.
    Did winning employee of the month give you a massive god complex, help convince you you were a miracle child destined to save the world from evil, and that anyone who doesn't acknowledge you as such is evil by definition?

    While simultaneously arming you with three weapons of mass destruction that offer you unparalleled martial and air power against enemies who have precisely no experience with combating them or their extreme destructive capabilities?

    Because that's where it's relevant. Just sayin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    See "tricking" us into rooting for Dany when she was actually a villain would be clever, but if you're going to do that, you need to be consistent with it.

    I find it passing odd the show expects me to regard Dany's torching of Randyl Tarly as proof of her madness...but also cheer Arya cooking Walder Frey's sons into a pie and feeding it to him as bad-ass.
    Why am I supposed to see Dany killing Dothraki leaders as an example of how terrible she is...but Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to his hounds as justice?
    Or executing slave owners versus Jon Snow executing a begging and pleading Janos Slynt?

    Yes, Dany has done questionable things—usually to worse people. She has made mistakes—some she's been shown to regret.
    But so has every other heroic character in the show.

    So if Dany's journey was foreshadowing her slaughtering innocent people in King's Landing, when can we expect Arya to start butchering random innocent people for no reason? Was she not told she had a darkness in her and that she should close many eyes forever?
    Oh, right, apparently that was foreshadowing her saving the goddamn world from White Walkers!

    It's awfully late for the show to pull that kind of moralism. You can't have almost every hero engage in moral ambiguity just to suddenly declare, oh nope, it was only bad when Dany did it. It doesn't work that way. You have to be consistent with your framing.

    And...as others have already pointed out...it's a pretty big and sudden leap to go from burning slave-owners and marauding rapists to torching innocent civilians because...f*** it.
    But that's the point. You AREN'T supposed to be cheering for any of those things. They are all awful, terrible things. Things we all should have been condemning from the jump. But we justify even the most heinous acts because we identify with the perpetrator.

    It's wholly consistent. The show has given you moments you should be questioning. If, like me, you haven't been, now the show wants you to ask why not? And go look back to reevaluate.
    Last edited by ZeroBG82; 05-20-2019 at 06:57 PM.

  5. #7595

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    But that's the point. You AREN'T supposed to be cheering for any of those things. They are all awful, terrible things. Things we all should have been condemning from the jump. But we justify even the most heinous acts because we identify with the perpetrator.

    It's wholly consistent. The show has given you moments you should be questioning. If, like me, you haven't been, now the show wants you to ask why not? And go look back to reevaluate.
    Fair enough, but when you go down that road, you're left with really only one conclusion:

    The Night King was the real hero of the story and he should've wiped out these awful, loathsome people.


    Which, you know..."humans are bastards" is a fair message. Basically the thesis of the Planet of the Apes movies.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  6. #7596

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    By the way, I don't know if anyone's touched on it already, but did anyone find Sansa completely disingenuous?

    Bet you anything if she'd been chosen by the council, there would still be seven kingdoms.
    "The North won't bend the knee to a *check's notes* Stark. So I should rule them independently."

    And I guarantee she does not give one single f*** that her siblings are effectively out of her life for good.
    "I'm sorry I told Tyrion your secret, Jon...effectively setting in motion Dany's insanity & death, the slaughter of thousands of people, and your exile...conveniently allowing me to declare myself Queen in the North. Can you forgive me? Anyway, goodbye! Enjoy the Wall!
    "Oh, Arya, are you sailing west. What a shame...too bad won't see the dress they're making me! Bye!"


    "The pack survives" my ass.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  7. #7597
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    See "tricking" us into rooting for Dany when she was actually a villain would be clever, but if you're going to do that, you need to be consistent with it.

    I find it passing odd the show expects me to regard Dany's torching of Randyl Tarly as proof of her madness...but also cheer Arya cooking Walder Frey's sons into a pie and feeding it to him as bad-ass.
    Why am I supposed to see Dany killing Dothraki leaders as an example of how terrible she is...but Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to his hounds as justice?
    Or executing slave owners versus Jon Snow executing a begging and pleading Janos Slynt?

    Yes, Dany has done questionable things—usually to worse people. She has made mistakes—some she's been shown to regret.
    But so has every other heroic character in the show.

    So if Dany's journey was foreshadowing her slaughtering innocent people in King's Landing, when can we expect Arya to start butchering random innocent people for no reason? Was she not told she had a darkness in her and that she should close many eyes forever?
    Oh, right, apparently that was foreshadowing her saving the goddamn world from White Walkers!

    It's awfully late for the show to pull that kind of moralism. You can't have almost every hero engage in moral ambiguity just to suddenly declare, oh nope, it was only bad when Dany did it. It doesn't work that way. You have to be consistent with your framing.

    And...as others have already pointed out...it's a pretty big and sudden leap to go from burning slave-owners and marauding rapists to torching innocent civilians because...f*** it.
    Because it's a false equivalency?

    Walder Frey orchestrated the illegal murders that broke the most sacred laws in Westeros of Arya's mother, brother, and many of their banners. Tarly was a captured soldier in a war situation that posed no threat whatsover to Dany anymore, was probably more valuable as a hostage, and could have just been imprisoned.

    Also Arya is as assassin. That's not a noble profession and many characters have acknowledge the darkness in Arya and her big story arc was her finally realizing the vengeance would turn her into a man like Sandor and that it wouldn't fulfill her.

    Likewise, Sansa killed a man who was a kinslayer (his father), murdered her brother, raped her multiple times and was flaying and murdering Northmen. She killed him in a similar manner to how he killed his step mother and brother. It was execution of criminal that would have happened with or without Sansa and the honorable Northern custom is for the person passing the sentence to do the deed. The Khals in Vaes Dothrak were bad people and probably would have hurt Dany, but Dany could have just escaped with Jorah and Daario. She stayed and killed them to get an army. An army she had no claim to. So it was far less neccessary and for personal gain.

    These are examples of very egregious false equivalences designed to bend over backwards to defend Dany. There's a world of difference between Tarly and the Khals and Ramsay (probably the most evil character on the show) and Walder Frey who committed the most egregious evil action of the first half of the show.

    Yes good character have made mistakes. Dany's mistakes were her mass crucifying the leaders of a city with absolutely zero regard and then having to deal with the fact that they weren't all evil. Beyond mistakes, Dany has wanted to burn multiple cities and had to be talked back by her advisors in early seasons. Beyond mistakes and threats, Dany has shown a very authoritarian my way or the highway attitude pretty much the entire show.

    For the record Janos Slynt was executed for breaking the laws of the NightWatch that existed long before Jon. It was no different than Ned executing the desserter. Not to mention the actual reasoning behind it was that Slynt was basically being treasoness and trying to undermine Snow's command and conspiring against him. And Jon took no pleasure in it. He didn't go around and have a direwolf eat him. He gave him a standard death. He didnt have elaborate burnings or crucifixtions to prove a point. He followed a law established long before he got the job.

    So again, not quite the same. Not in volume, not in level of malicious.

    The Arya point fails because we did in fact see Arya become a murderer bent on vengeance. But her arc was clearly about her rising above that. She didn't lose herself and become no one. She didn't continue seeking vengeance. She saw the folly in it and moved on. Dany relished in what she was doing and was getting worse and more aggressive every season.

    Dany helping to save the world against the White Walkers just proves that she is a complex character. She was able to see that there was a threat greater than her enemies and that threat would wipe everyone else out and it would be foolish to ignore it. Jamie helped against the White Walkers, and went back to Cersei. Jamie killed the mad king to save people and then bore the name Kingslayer as a dishonor in what will go down as the most selfless act in either the show or book, but years after that he pushed a boy out of window. Dany can be an authoritarian tyrant and simultaneously help when she see's another threat. Don't forget in WWII we found ourselves on the same side as Stalin when the threat was pressing enough. The fact that he was instrumental in saving the world from Hitler doesn't change who he was.

    This isn't a compelling argument and relies on a lot of comparisons that simply don't hold up or poor logic that if x did this and y did this they are equal or Dany can't be bad because she did "this". No Dany had a pattern. And to say it's sudden and a big leap.... it's something a lot of people have seen coming for years and quite frankly long before the show.

    It's not really a mistake that the girl who was going around the world viciously acquiring armies via murder, and acquiring cities by going in and slaughtering the leadership, who was proclaiming herself a savior and liberator ended up turning out exactly how that sounded. It's not a mistake that the girl who threatened to trample every city she's ever been to in the show, including the one she inevitably did, actually meant her words. And there's a reason a lot of us saw this coming miles away many years ago.

  8. #7598
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    Wait you trying to morally equate punishing slavers with burning innocent children? Truly odd. 163 slave children were crucified by the masters and she crucified 163 masters as justice. In the world they live in, that is entirely reasonable.

    As for burning, not sure if you referring to Tarleys but they fought a war and then refused to bend the knee. Should they have received cookies. Again not sure what that has to do with innocent children.

    This would be like saying because the government sentenced Ted Bundy to death, we should expect that they BBQ innocent children next.
    Were all the slavers bad? No it actually was established that some were just nobility who happened to live in the city and treated slaves like family because the power structure forced them to and that they were not cruel and actually compensating them and protecting them from bad masters. But Dany didn't know that because it was easier to deal conveniant murder to get what she wanted than it was to deal justice.

    What I do find truly odd is that Dany threatened to burn the cities of her enemies in season 2, she threatened to burn Qarth (something she echoed in the finale in her speech) and it seriously concerned Jorah. She threatened to burn Astapor and Volantis. She threatened to burn Mereen and actually was planning on it until Tyrion talked her down. She threatened to burn King's Landing and Tyrion spent a season and a half trying to find an alternative. It's kind of odd that her actually living up to years of threats is beyond the pale to you.

    Also your take on the Tarlys is ridiculous. They were prisoners of war. The Lannisters that were capturered by Robb Stark didn't bend the knee to him. He didn't kill them. And when his banners did kill his prisoners, he executed them for treason because that isn't what you do in war.

    You're comparing a prisoner enemy combatant to Ted Bundy who is an illegally murder. I notice a lot of Dany supporters make a lot of ridiculous false equivalences to justify her. I also notice that when it's conveniant they have a flippant attitude towards murders. Especially ones that later proved not to be just.

  9. #7599
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Did winning employee of the month give you a massive god complex, help convince you you were a miracle child destined to save the world from evil, and that anyone who doesn't acknowledge you as such is evil by definition?

    While simultaneously arming you with three weapons of mass destruction that offer you unparalleled martial and air power against enemies who have precisely no experience with combating them or their extreme destructive capabilities?

    Because that's where it's relevant. Just sayin.
    Yeah the point is the innocent children where not her enemies. Her enemy was in the Red Keep and she burned children instead. You are trying to morally equate killing enemies with killing innocents. It is pretty illogical.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    By the way, I don't know if anyone's touched on it already, but did anyone find Sansa completely disingenuous?

    Bet you anything if she'd been chosen by the council, there would still be seven kingdoms.
    "The North won't bend the knee to a *check's notes* Stark. So I should rule them independently."

    And I guarantee she does not give one single f*** that her siblings are effectively out of her life for good.
    "I'm sorry I told Tyrion your secret, Jon...effectively setting in motion Dany's insanity & death, the slaughter of thousands of people, and your exile...conveniently allowing me to declare myself Queen in the North. Can you forgive me? Anyway, goodbye! Enjoy the Wall!
    "Oh, Arya, are you sailing west. What a shame...too bad won't see the dress they're making me! Bye!"


    "The pack survives" my ass.
    Oh boy, another Sansa hater.

    The Starks, and North aside from Ramsay Bolton, had fought for independence since season 2. And ever since, the North has been hit HARD by either wars and schemes from the South, or the White Walkers in the North.

    Sansa would have also turned down being Queen of the Southern kingdoms. It seems she wants to be done with them aside from a few individuals (like Brienne and Pod).

    Even prior to this whole mess going down, Benjen had visited Winterfell several times over the years as a member of the Watch. And the Watch has always been a Northern tradition, with strong ties to the Starks. So saying Jon and Sansa can't meet, particularly now that the North is independent, is simply not true.

    She also only told Tyrion Jon's secret when she learned he was afraid of his own Queen. It was a small way to try and help keep Jon alive. Because at the rate Dany was going, it wouldn't have been long before Jon ended up like the people of King's Landing. Besides, it was this that allowed Tyrion to push through to Jon to end the madness before it could spread further.

  11. #7601
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    The showrunners have been trying to have it both ways all season. This whole thing is the height of "shock value storytelling" that I've come to despise.

    It's interesting to read that at least some of the actors, Kit and Emilia prominent among, knew all along that there was going to be lots of blowback to these last few episodes.

  12. #7602

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Oh boy, another Sansa hater.

    The Starks, and North aside from Ramsay Bolton, had fought for independence since season 2. And ever since, the North has been hit HARD by either wars and schemes from the South, or the White Walkers in the North.

    Sansa would have also turned down being Queen of the Southern kingdoms. It seems she wants to be done with them aside from a few individuals (like Brienne and Pod).

    Even prior to this whole mess going down, Benjen had visited Winterfell several times over the years as a member of the Watch. And the Watch has always been a Northern tradition, with strong ties to the Starks. So saying Jon and Sansa can't meet, particularly now that the North is independent, is simply not true.

    She also only told Tyrion Jon's secret when she learned he was afraid of his own Queen. It was a small way to try and help keep Jon alive. Because at the rate Dany was going, it wouldn't have been long before Jon ended up like the people of King's Landing. Besides, it was this that allowed Tyrion to push through to Jon to end the madness before it could spread further.
    Who said I was a hater? Just saying I think she's more Littlefingery than she would have us believe.
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  13. #7603
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    Sansa didn’t give 2 shits about any kingdom below the North. She’d rather the North be it’s own continent and ignore the rest than be stuck ruling a bunch of dead weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    By the way, I don't know if anyone's touched on it already, but did anyone find Sansa completely disingenuous?

    Bet you anything if she'd been chosen by the council, there would still be seven kingdoms.
    "The North won't bend the knee to a *check's notes* Stark. So I should rule them independently."

    And I guarantee she does not give one single f*** that her siblings are effectively out of her life for good.
    "I'm sorry I told Tyrion your secret, Jon...effectively setting in motion Dany's insanity & death, the slaughter of thousands of people, and your exile...conveniently allowing me to declare myself Queen in the North. Can you forgive me? Anyway, goodbye! Enjoy the Wall!
    "Oh, Arya, are you sailing west. What a shame...too bad won't see the dress they're making me! Bye!"


    "The pack survives" my ass.
    Sansa didn't deserve the ending that she got, what exactly has she done in the entire show?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    Sansa didn’t give 2 shits about any kingdom below the North. She’d rather the North be it’s own continent and ignore the rest than be stuck ruling a bunch of dead weight.
    Eh, Sansa is the last Stark I'd peg for some kind of northern patriot. She mostly takes after her mother and has those elegant and refined southern manners and accent, I suppose the northern lords are loyal to her family but she always seems out of place among them.
    Last edited by PwrdOn; 05-20-2019 at 07:54 PM.

  15. #7605
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Were all the slavers bad? No it actually was established that some were just nobility who happened to live in the city and treated slaves like family because the power structure forced them to and that they were not cruel and actually compensating them and protecting them from bad masters. But Dany didn't know that because it was easier to deal conveniant murder to get what she wanted than it was to deal justice.

    What I do find truly odd is that Dany threatened to burn the cities of her enemies in season 2, she threatened to burn Qarth (something she echoed in the finale in her speech) and it seriously concerned Jorah. She threatened to burn Astapor and Volantis. She threatened to burn Mereen and actually was planning on it until Tyrion talked her down. She threatened to burn King's Landing and Tyrion spent a season and a half trying to find an alternative. It's kind of odd that her actually living up to years of threats is beyond the pale to you.

    Also your take on the Tarlys is ridiculous. They were prisoners of war. The Lannisters that were capturered by Robb Stark didn't bend the knee to him. He didn't kill them. And when his banners did kill his prisoners, he executed them for treason because that isn't what you do in war.

    You're comparing a prisoner enemy combatant to Ted Bundy who is an illegally murder. I notice a lot of Dany supporters make a lot of ridiculous false equivalences to justify her. I also notice that when it's conveniant they have a flippant attitude towards murders. Especially ones that later proved not to be just.
    Ok which slavers objected to the crucifying of the 163 slave children? Please show me the support that they opposed their fellow slave masters. Generally speaking slave masters are bad. Not sure what to tell you.

    Yeah the difference between those times and what actually happened is she had already won. You threaten to burn down a city to win. You don't burn innocent children after the war was won and when your main enemy is right there in front of you. Burning a city to defeat your enemy is logical even if it is ruthless. Burning a city for shits and giggles is not.

    Robb Stark can chose not to kill PoWs and Dany can chose to kill them. If you don't bend the knee then you are still a threat to take up arms later. Not sure what confuses you. Randall Tarley in particularly is a shitty father that threatened to kill his own son, broke several oaths, and is generally a bigot and xenophobic. Not sure what again that has to do with innocent people.

    Not a Dany supporter at all and have been wishing for her death for 7 seasons. Doesn't change the fact her death was handled in the dumbest way possible.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

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