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Thread: Game of Thrones

  1. #7621
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    They didn't take one season to do the 'Mad Queen turn' as you call it. They took SEVEN. If you're not cool with it now, I daresay a few more episodes were not going to sell you on it.
    I meant the point after, in the previous episode, where Daenerys decides to obliterate King's Landing and in this episode where she's laying out her project for Westeros. We never got very much of her in this role, where she's now seen as a villain by the audience and the characters that had championed her cause before. It seems barely an episode between that turn and her getting knifed. Most other people on the series who were exposed as villains got a lot more episodes to chew the scenery in that role.

  2. #7622
    Once And Future BAMF Hellion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Allen View Post
    Awright, so first I want to point out a couple of things I thought were done really well from this last season, to make clear I'm not just jumping on a bandwagon of complaint, or dismissing this season out of hand as not being as good as the previous:

    One was Theon's return to defend Winterfell against the Night King's army, and the way the Starks received him for it. Sansa's embracing him and Bran's thanking him, saying he was a good man and was "home" were I thought emotionally powerful moments, and probably the most human either of those characters felt this season. And it was a fantastic ending to Theon's redemption arc. You almost couldn't really mourn his dying in the battle, because he was dying as a hero, a human, a Stark, an Ironborn ... you know, instead of as Reek, or any of the many worse ways he could have died, previously.

    Another thing done really well was Brienne's standing and speaking up for Jaime, when he would otherwise likely have been executed, and later his knighting her. Both were well acted and written moments, and both felt organic to me ... these moments felt like a realistic evolution of the individual characters, and of their complex and complicated relationships with one another. From where they began as enemies with nothing but contempt for one another, I felt like these moments showed how their shared respect for honor and duty brought them as close to one another as either character is capable of being. It was really just very well done.
    Cheers to you, Ser. Theon's arc was probably the best part of this season (not just saying that because he's my favorite character, he just miraculously avoided this season's rampant character assassination and everything involving him this season including Sansa's mourning him after the battle felt earned). People complain about "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" as being a second set-up episode this season and being too fan-service-y, but I would argue Episode 2 was the best this season ever got writing-wise. It all went downhill from there.
    MAGNETO was right,TONY was right, VARYS was right.

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  3. #7623
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    That's exactly what they did. Honestly people should probably rewatch the earlier seasons with where she ends up in mind, because it's there. It's exactly as Tyrion said, she was cruel sadistic megalomaniac, we just didn't question it because we got small snippets of the people on the receiving end being "bad". Then every once in a while we would get told how it wasn't as simple as it initially seemed. Especially the slavemasters and nobility who weren't all bad people. She literally took over and started wars that trashed cities for the sake of getting an army and then as soon as that was done she fucked off and left those cities in the care of sell swords.

    See it was different when the thing she did to the slave masters she did to Sam's father and brother and we got to see an emotional reaction. It was different when we were worried about Jamie on that field of fire scene.

    It was cool for her to be self righteous to a bunch of no names in Slavers Bay. But when she was demanding Jon Snow bend the knee, it came off as a bit tyrannical.

    The question you have to ask yourself with Dany is this: how many times in history has someone went around the world from city to city and state to state and brutally killed the power structure their in the name of being a liberator who had a vision of a brand new world in their image, leaving carnage in their wake, that we DIDN'T ultimately view as some sort of tyrant? All the shit you saw in Essos? Yeah the point of that was that the whole time she was planning to do the same in the Seven Kingdoms. And the less people and checks she had on her the further she went.

    You can't compare her to Walter White. Walter White wasn't saying in season one that his goal was to do half of what he ended up doing. He got caught up in it and lost himself. Dany was a Targaryen. She's been saying since the beginning that this was her destiny. She's been threatening fire and blood. She's been going around horrifically destroying power structure in whole cities and leaving causalities. She had to be checked by Jorah, Barristan, and finally Tyrion from giving in to her worst impulses. When she lost them or lost faith in them, her impulses remained.
    Here's the problem. If you, as the writer, have not sufficiently prepped your audience for this kind of reversal, you can't blame the viewers for being upset.

    And clearly for many MANY viewers that's what happened. Tyrions speech harking back to her previous purges attempt to highlight them as significant, but it's still too little too late for a lot of people.

    Because, quite simply, it is a VERY long now to date going from killing guys who've said they're going to rape you to death with their horses to burning children alive. Her actions in Slavers Bay were perceived as teaching her wisdom and temperance. Clearly an epic fail not forseen by viewers. On the context of her reaction to SM learning she buned his father and brother, this is very much at odds with expectations.

    Personally, if they were going this route it should have been Jorah who ended her. That would have had much more impact.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

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  4. #7624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
    Cheers to you, Ser. Theon's arc was probably the best part of this season (not just saying that because he's my favorite character, he just miraculously avoided this season's rampant character assassination and everything involving him this season including Sansa's mourning him after the battle felt earned). People complain about "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" as being a second set-up episode this season and being too fan-service-y, but I would argue Episode 2 was the best this season ever got writing-wise. It all went downhill from there.
    Agree Theon got some of the best service this season. Him and Todmund were stand outside.

    Basically for me, the further ahead of the books they got, the more the quality deteriorated.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  5. #7625
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Speaking of Theon, that was all kind of creepy when Bran says to him that he's a good man. It's like, ok dude, go die now. The moment Bran says it, the way he says it, there was nothing heartwarming about that.

    The puppet master has done it again. ^^

  6. #7626
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    Poor Edmure. It would've been kinder to leave him half-forgotten by the audience.

    I'm surprised Gendry was able to collect on his appointed lordship of the Stormlands, especially after Dany died. He had no men of his own, and even if people cheered his appointment at the party, lending him manpower would've been quite another matter. Still, good for him.

    Everything about Tyrion's trial was retarded for reasons already covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Yeah, the problem isn't Bran, it's how it got to be Bran in the show.

    I'm sure if things weren't rushed that Bran becoming king would feel more earned. As it is, his response when Tyrion asked if he would become king being, "Why do you think I came all this way?" rings even colder and more sadistic from what's supposed to be an above-it-all cleric like Bran since that means the deaths of millions he foresaw across Winterfell and King's Landing were just stepping stones (I guess) on the path to the throne.
    This is an interesting take, and one I've seen in several places now. I'm not sure I agree with you about Bran being cold in that scene. I would use the word resigned, but we'll come back to that.

    Yours is a more interesting take than the one that Bran was playing the Game and is kind of a secret Palpatine. I've seen that pop up a number of times today.

    It's a misread of the scene. Bran's line about it being why he came all this way isn't because he foresaw the outcome and wants to be king. It's because he foresaw the outcome and knows he needs to be king. Like Jon, Bran reluctantly accepts a mantle he doesn't want because he can keep the peace and try to do right.

    Bran's line is one of resignation. Tyrion doesn't need to convince Bran because Bran has already accepted his duty, like it or not. It's the most Stark moment Bran has had in a long time.
    His "serene" smile came a little too close to a gloating "just as planned" face. I didn't expect his word choice to be quite so blatant about it, either. And then everyone just went along with it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparta View Post
    You'd think Meera Reed would get more credit. She sacrificed a lot for Bran.
    And Bran barely cared anymore . Ironically, he became nobody far moreso than Arya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    lol, a part of me wanted Bran to say no with an emotionless stare. But you know Sansa would have gone to war over that.
    Hah! He should have. It's exactly what her spoilsport proposal deserved.

  7. #7627
    Astonishing Member Lord Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Jammer View Post
    Everything after episode 3 (this season) just didn't make me feel anything. Maaaaaaybe Dany blowing up KL had me go "what the fuck" for a minute, but basically everything after the "Fuck Yeah, Arya!" moment was met with a deadpan stare from me. Like...I literally have no opinion to form, good or bad. Which is, most times, worse than having a bad opinion, I think.

    Oh, except Dany's "Dragon wings" scene when she was walking up the steps in the finale; that was pretty badass imagery.
    I can't make you feel things. Even the government can only make you tolerate them at best.

    All I'm saying is that the finale had merit, and assertions that it's objectively bad have mostly failed to justfiy their positions, and those that tried failed to do so beyond "it didn't follow my predictions/some worthless prophecy."

    Honestly, religion is the only string which forces me to understand why people put so much stock and emotional investment in prophecy. I don't give two shits whether narrative meets prophecy. I care whether narrative meets character motivations.

  8. #7628
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    1. Yeah not going to debate 2019 morals in a fictional universe that is more akin to medieval times. When you fight a war and lose then refuse to submit then you are not an innocent. Fairly simple concept. Dany gave people who tried to kill her a choice. No comparison to innocents who she did not give a choice too.

    3. Then I die. If I own slaves then I can be considered evil and corrupt. If I fight to kill someone and then refuse to bend the knee, I can be considered evil and corrupt. That is the way of the world. There is no argument for the innocent people she killed being evil and corrupt hence why it is stupid.
    You can't choose to apply a non-2019 moral at one point and then do so at another. In many a civilization, owning slaves was not evil, it just was. Even the Valyrian Freehold had slaves as recently as its Doom, 400 years ago. And in the last episode, the lords of Westeros drew equivalencies between commoners, pigs and horses. Yet there hasn't been much outrage about it. Daenerys herself was perfectly fine with owning slaves when she was in a position of power thanks to Drogo, or when living in the Free Cities. Therefore, there is an argument which can be made about the peoples of King's Landing being dubbed corrupt and evil by Dany : she holds the Dragon, she has the power to do so, and she decided that her right to rule -threatened or even erased by Jon, who had the better claim - could only be staked on Drogon and its powers. Hence why she unleashed it, to remind everyone how powerful she was. And as someone with a Messiah complex, it's very easy to decide that those who don't rise in revolt against their masters when one approach are corrupt and undeserving of one's gift. History is full of those peoples, I'm pretty sure of it.

    And while the lords of Slaver's Bay certainly were terrible individuals by our values, did they truly deserves to have their whole civilization destroyed by a foreign invader who obfuscated her tue intentions behind the pretense of ending slavery ? If Dany truly had wanted to change the world for the better, why did she needed the Iron Throne ? As queen of Slaver's Bay, she would have had far more impact on ensuring that slavery would be erased than as Queen of Westeros. And how do we know that it wasn't reinstated in Meereen, Yunkaď and Astapor as soon as the last of her ship crossed over the horizon ? She left mercenaries, peoples as liable as pillaging the cities and then selling their swords to the higher bidder.

    At best she left Slaver's Bay to fall back in its previous nature. At worst, she has sentenced it to decades, if not centuries of constant bloodshed between would-be Masters, former slaves and sellswords. All of that before she died.

  9. #7629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Falcon View Post
    I really appreciated that even after all he had seen, Jon Snow wasn't willing to do the right and best thing because it was dishonorable. And Tyrion finally convinced him to do the dishonorable thing by adding his love for his family on top of all of that. Jon Snow truly is Ned's son in spirit.
    Seriously?

    Well yeah if you take the view that Ned Stark was am idiot and a loser.

    There is NOTHING dishonorable about putting down a rabid dog. In my eyes, Jon's procrastination just makes him into a spineless wuss led around by his penis.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  10. #7630
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Falcon View Post
    I can't make you feel things. Even the government can only make you tolerate them at best.

    All I'm saying is that the finale had merit, and assertions that it's objectively bad have mostly failed to justfiy their positions.
    Not to me. Looking at it critically it abounds in dumbnesss and wasted potential.
    If ten years of recording The Young and the Restless for my mother have taught me anything, it's that characters in serial dramas are always happily in love...until they're not

    “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering.” - the 4th Doctor

  11. #7631
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post

    There is NOTHING dishonorable about putting down a rabid dog.
    Yes there is if that rabid dog is your queen. It's just that "honor" and "moral" are not the same thing. Honor is a largely archaic system of conduct. There's a reason why honor is usually given to morally ambiguous characters like Klingons and Orcs in fiction. "Modern morality is superior to honor" is largely the message of most encounters between people espousing modern morality and those espousing honor.

  12. #7632
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Everybody has a right to be disappointed if that's how they feel. But this is a mischaracterization of what happened with Dany. "They," that is the writers, didn't change anything about Dany or her behavior. They simply recontextualized it to make everyone realize that this is what she has been ALL ALONG.

    We can debate how effective their attempt was. But the idea is for the audience to be in the same position as Jon. We love Dany. We've seen her triumph over evil men, and resist terrible fates and fight for what was hers. And we cheered, even as she engaged in savage, sometimes indiscriminate violence against her enemies. Because she could and she believed it was right to do so.

    When she was targeting the evil we wrote it off. Justified it. But it was still brutality. And brutality is NEVER the answer to a better world. But now we see that she is not limited to the evil. She will punish the innocent as well, simply for not fighting hard enough to reject evil.

    We're supposed to feel conflicted. Unsure if it is our eyes or our hearts that are deceiving us. What Jon does, probably save the world from tyranny, isn't meant to feel clean or righteous. Even if it almost certainly is.

    I feel like the writers didn't quite stick the landing. But they got closer than I would have expected given the time constraint of six episodes. Rushed? Yes, absolutely. Not what we expected? Almost certainly. But thematically and visually strong, if narratively weaker.

    I would also posit that there is NO ending that could have satisfied most viewers. The hype was too much, the buildup too long. Almost anything was going to feel like an anticlimax, and imaginations, and thus expectations fair or foul, had been working overtime for years. This was never going to end in a way that satisfied any of that, I feel.

    Thank you, spot on.

  13. #7633
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    Season finale was bad, seems like writers are going for shook value instead of good story telling. If they knew they had to cram everything into 6 episodes, they should have reconsidered some things. I have my own head canon that I will pretend is what actually happened lol. I have a question for those in the know, is this the first season that didn’t have a book to go off of? And was Martin involved with the planning of this story in anyway? And when he does get around to finishing his book will it have to align with this last season?

  14. #7634
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    Quote Originally Posted by BishopsJuice91 View Post
    Season finale was bad, seems like writers are going for shook value instead of good story telling. If they knew they had to cram everything into 6 episodes, they should have reconsidered some things. I have my own head canon that I will pretend is what actually happened lol. I have a question for those in the know, is this the first season that didn’t have a book to go off of? And was Martin involved with the planning of this story in anyway? And when he does get around to finishing his book will it have to align with this last season?
    They've been going off the books for a while now. If I recall correctly, the last book published so far ends with Daenarys being dropped in a grass field by Drogon after he rescues her from the fighting pits, only to be surrounded by Dothraki. That was at least 2 seasons ago I think. Of course GRRM had some chapters of the next book that he publicly read here and there but as far as I know they did not contain major plot points for the main characters.

    Actually I think they did a really good job when they went past the books, would have expected much worse. I can understand the complaints about the season feeling rushed, but Dany going bat-sh*t crazy was not really a surprise. They could have used some time in the first two episodes to build that up a bit more. That way, Jon's realisation and action would have had more weight to it.

    But that's the problem with such shows: everybody has a different ending in mind and you can only pick one, so lots of people will be disappointed. But hey, they gave us 8 years of what is - all in all - one of the greatest shows we ever got. So I am not upset

  15. #7635
    Spectacular Member Mr Cochese's Avatar
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    If Bran was really the embodiment of stories then he should know that they never make the unearthly avatar of an abstract concept the king at the end. Wait, is Bran an authorial self-insert?

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